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EMPIRE TRAD3R
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Posted - 2009.09.26 12:44:00 -
[1]
We had a smallish fight last night, and a single Falcon kept about 6 battleships with overloaded T2 ECCM perma jammed.
Is ECCM broken or was I just unlucky?
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rubico1337
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.26 12:56:00 -
[2]
your ECCM didnt work BECAUSE OF FALCON
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Galliana Foresta
Fleeting Moments of Insanity
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Posted - 2009.09.26 13:07:00 -
[3]
Or did you have Gravimetric ECCM fitted to a Megathron?
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.09.26 13:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: EMPIRE TRAD3R We had a smallish fight last night, and a single Falcon kept about 6 battleships with overloaded T2 ECCM perma jammed.
Is ECCM broken or was I just unlucky?
I don't believe that story for a second.
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.09.26 13:26:00 -
[5]
Originally by: EMPIRE TRAD3R We had a smallish fight last night, and a single Falcon kept about 6 battleships with overloaded T2 ECCM perma jammed.
Is ECCM broken or was I just unlucky?
Way to lie
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Lollipops for Rancors
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Posted - 2009.09.26 14:45:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 26/09/2009 14:45:02 LOL
Though testing on SISI a scorp can pretty much perma-jam 1 BS with 1 ECCM... though nothing stopping you fitting a 2nd when they'll have almost no chance.
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Sernum
the united
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Posted - 2009.09.26 15:13:00 -
[7]
ECM is not broken and your not unlucky. The game is broken and ecm just happens to be the most broken part of the game. They should make boosters (pills) you can consume instead of fitting your ship with 10 eccm mods Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Saint |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.09.26 16:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: EMPIRE TRAD3R We had a smallish fight last night, and a single Falcon kept about 6 battleships with overloaded T2 ECCM perma jammed.
Is ECCM broken or was I just unlucky?
Proof or it didn't happen.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.09.26 17:48:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Denuo Secus on 26/09/2009 17:49:32
Originally by: Sernum ECM is not broken and your not unlucky. The game is broken and ecm just happens to be the most broken part of the game. They should make boosters (pills) you can consume instead of fitting your ship with 10 eccm mods
Nonsense, nothing is broken. ECM (and ewar generally) is one of the parts of the game mechanic which allows smaller fleets or even solo players to stand against the blob. Normally PvP dictates "if the opponent brings more ships - bring more ships". Electronic warfare is one possibility to break that boring circle.
And regarding permajamming ECCMed ships...my main trained all ECM skills to 4 and some to 5. Recon ship is at 5. And I was not able to permajam not-ECCMed battleships using racial jammers in a Falcon. I do not grumble - they worked fine most of the time. But I had several missed cycles. The Dominix I jammed used this time to chase his drones after me ^^
ECM is fairly balanced at the moment imo...to reach that level of "almost permajamming" you have to sacrifice tank and damage completely.
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Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Kovorix
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Posted - 2009.09.26 18:06:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Denuo Secus
Originally by: Sernum ECM is not broken and your not unlucky. The game is broken and ecm just happens to be the most broken part of the game. They should make boosters (pills) you can consume instead of fitting your ship with 10 eccm mods
Nonsense, nothing is broken. ECM (and ewar generally) is one of the parts of the game mechanic which allows smaller fleets or even solo players to stand against the blob. Normally PvP dictates "if the opponent brings more ships - bring more ships". Electronic warfare is one possibility to break that boring circle.
And regarding permajamming ECCMed ships...my main trained all ECM skills to 4 and some to 5. Recon ship is at 5. And I was not able to permajam not-ECCMed battleships using racial jammers in a Falcon. I do not grumble - they worked fine and most of the time but I had several missed cycles. The Dominix I jammed used this time to chase his drones after me ^^
ECM is fairly balanced at the moment imo...to reach that level of "almost permajamming" you have to sacrifice tank and damage completely.
ECM is, in my experience, practically NEVER used by small gangs to engage "the blob". It's usually fielded to remove any doubt of loss, even when the fight is already one sided.
And, honestly, NOBODY fits any kind of tank or damage to falcons, because there is absolutely no reason to - you just gimp it's effectiveness.
The fact that I can fly a solo battleship around low sec and engage gangs of 5-6 with a hope of victory (given it isn't a heavy gang), only to have ALL of my hopes crushed by a single ship, a falcon, is proof to me that ECM needs to be changed. It doesn't matter what ship or fit I'm fielding (4x ECCM is not a viable solo fit). There is no piloting I can do against it. ECM ships take no skill to pilot (decloak, target, jam. warp out/cloak if in any trouble). A single tier 3 battleship is easily permajammed without ECCM, and nearly perma'ed with it. And don't even get me started on ECM drones (had 5 light ECM drones get 2 consecutive 20sec jams on my cyclone, 40 seconds is more than enough time to ensure the outcome of a 1v3 fight).
It's just an absolutely ******ed mechanic. Rather than inspire diversity in sizes and makeups of gangs, ECM inspires gangs to bring MORE SHIPS or MORE ECM, because that's the only counter to enemy jamming.
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Arrador
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Posted - 2009.09.26 18:20:00 -
[11]
and they say carebear tears are the sweetest
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Susy Assulu
Caldari Atomic Mexicans
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Posted - 2009.09.26 18:29:00 -
[12]
You could counter ECM by bringing one friend in a gank battle cruiser and have them warp in at 100km from you about where the falcon will be and blast the crap out of him or just force him off the field.
It is an MMO the 2nd 'M' stands for multiplayer JFYI, you don't have to play in a gang all the time but 2 against 6 is still battling the odds.
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Dark Sidhe
Minmatar Rage For Order Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.26 18:35:00 -
[13]
They've already gimped the Falcon a patch or two ago. They must get closer than before and have very little tank. What you folks have to do is keep Falcons in mind. Have a ceptor or even a frig burn out to it, bring your own ECM ship to jam him or call him primary and he'll likely get forced from the field.
I also have a hard time believing that six BS's with overloaded T2 ECCM's were permajammed. -------------------------------
"Back away from the Tatoo Ink" |
Kovorix
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Posted - 2009.09.26 18:35:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kovorix on 26/09/2009 18:36:36
Originally by: Susy Assulu You could counter ECM by bringing one friend in a gank battle cruiser and have them warp in at 100km from you about where the falcon will be and blast the crap out of him or just force him off the field.
It is an MMO the 2nd 'M' stands for multiplayer JFYI, you don't have to play in a gang all the time but 2 against 6 is still battling the odds.
I think having to sacrifice midslots to specifically counter a couple ships that I may or may not encounter on my roam is far too much to ask when solo/small gang. You're saying that I should sacrifice a PILOT and SHIP for that purpose???? Name another ship in game necessitates that this kind of attention. There aren't any.
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Susy Assulu
Caldari Atomic Mexicans
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Posted - 2009.09.26 18:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kovorix Edited by: Kovorix on 26/09/2009 18:37:39
Originally by: Susy Assulu You could counter ECM by bringing one friend in a gank battle cruiser and have them warp in at 100km from you about where the falcon will be and blast the crap out of him or just force him off the field.
It is an MMO the 2nd 'M' stands for multiplayer JFYI, you don't have to play in a gang all the time but 2 against 6 is still battling the odds.
I think having to sacrifice midslots to specifically counter a couple ships that I may or may not encounter on my roam is far too much to ask when solo/small gang. You're saying that I should sacrifice a PILOT and SHIP for that purpose???? Name another ship in game that necessitates this kind of attention. There aren't any.
What, I said a gank battle cruiser surely your gang has 1 of thoose. It isn't a dedicated falcon killing ship its a ****ing battlecruiser that you warp in at range to kill the flacon.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.09.26 18:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kovorix
Originally by: Denuo Secus Nonsense, nothing is broken. ECM (and ewar generally) is one of the parts of the game mechanic which allows smaller fleets or even solo players to stand against the blob. Normally PvP dictates "if the opponent brings more ships - bring more ships". Electronic warfare is one possibility to break that boring circle.
And regarding permajamming ECCMed ships...my main trained all ECM skills to 4 and some to 5. Recon ship is at 5. And I was not able to permajam not-ECCMed battleships using racial jammers in a Falcon. I do not grumble - they worked fine and most of the time but I had several missed cycles. The Dominix I jammed used this time to chase his drones after me ^^
ECM is fairly balanced at the moment imo...to reach that level of "almost permajamming" you have to sacrifice tank and damage completely.
ECM is, in my experience, practically NEVER used by small gangs to engage "the blob". It's usually fielded to remove any doubt of loss, even when the fight is already one sided.
It looks a bit different from my point of view. We're a very small corp with 4 active pilots. We don't had any chance yet in low sec when beeing jumped by 10 ships. Same during WH exploration. 4 peeps is engough for WH stuff. But 8 opponents is just to much. Or in friendly 0.0 beeing jumped by a 12 ship roaming gang....
...until we bring just one ECM ship into play. This option costs us one damage ship but can exclude 3-5 enemy ships effectively from the fight. Or it could just make sure the we at least gtfo. And even then is not easy. But it's interesting! And we don't want to blob as counter. Beeing a smallish fleet is nice so far. Winning fights even though beeing outnumbered can be very very funny.
Originally by: Kovorix And, honestly, NOBODY fits any kind of tank or damage to falcons, because there is absolutely no reason to - you just gimp it's effectiveness.
Yes. Ofc. I only wanted to show that ECM cost you something.
Originally by: Kovorix ECM inspires gangs to bring MORE SHIPS or MORE ECM, because that's the only counter to enemy jamming.
Indeed a valid point. Cannot say much against it except that ECM is chance based and the faster one wins. If the smaller fleet can permajam the opponents jammer...and so on. There are also several tactics which can be successful even when outnumbered by enemy ECM ships. The nature of the ECM mechanic is fortunately not such flat as HP <-> HP and DPS <-> DPS.
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Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.09.26 18:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kovorix Edited by: Kovorix on 26/09/2009 18:37:39 ....Name another ship in game that necessitates this kind of attention.....
- AF-gangs: Especially when the AB changes become true a dedicated frig smasher could be useful - Bomber fleet with damps: Cost you one med for a sensor boosters. But granted, SeBos are more common as ECCM - Neuts: Every one and his dog fits cap booster and/or aviods active tanks because of that single module
Disclaimer: I have no problem with any of these modules or tactics. Indeed they add diversity.
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Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Kovorix
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Posted - 2009.09.26 19:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Susy Assulu What, I said a gank battle cruiser surely your gang has 1 of thoose. It isn't a dedicated falcon killing ship its a ****ing battlecruiser that you warp in at range to kill the flacon.
But it is - 90% of the time you won't know whether the enemy gang has a falcon, so your plan requires keeping the battlecruiser out of the fight until you're either sure there is no falcon or it uncloaks.
Even if you do know there's a falcon, the BC has to warp to the correct celestial then warp back in, taking time. But then a falcon pilot that doesn't suck will be aligned and warp out and back in at a different angle, meaning you've sacrificed lots of time and a ship to only disrupt the jamming, not eliminate it.
What you really need is a frigate to tackle it, but a small (4 or less) gang that puts a pilot in a small ship like that is already wasting potential in a fragile and often useless ship for these situations.
My point stands, ECM is the only game mechanic which you must increase the size of your gang in order to specifically combat, and therefore pushes small gang pvp out of the game.
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Susy Assulu
Caldari Atomic Mexicans
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Posted - 2009.09.26 19:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Susy Assulu on 26/09/2009 19:38:52
Originally by: Kovorix But it is - 90% of the time you won't know whether the enemy gang has a falcon, so your plan requires keeping the battlecruiser out of the fight until you're either sure there is no falcon or it uncloaks.
No it doesn't
Quote: Even if you do know there's a falcon, the BC has to warp to the correct celestial then warp back in, taking time. But then a falcon pilot that doesn't suck will be aligned and warp out and back in at a different angle, meaning you've sacrificed lots of time and a ship to only disrupt the jamming, not eliminate it.
So you forced it off the field and this is a bad thing, how?
Quote: What you really need is a frigate to tackle it, but a small (4 or less) gang that puts a pilot in a small ship like that is already wasting potential in a fragile and often useless ship for these situations.
You are trolling now.
Quote: My point stands, ECM is the only game mechanic which you must increase the size of your gang in order to specifically combat, and therefore pushes small gang/solo pvp out of the game.
Your an idiot
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Kovorix
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Posted - 2009.09.26 20:00:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Kovorix on 26/09/2009 20:05:15
Originally by: Susy Assulu
Quote: Even if you do know there's a falcon, the BC has to warp to the correct celestial then warp back in, taking time. But then a falcon pilot that doesn't suck will be aligned and warp out and back in at a different angle, meaning you've sacrificed lots of time and a ship to only disrupt the jamming, not eliminate it.
So you forced it off the field and this is a bad thing, how?
You clearly are completely missing my point, and lack the ability to formulate your own argument.
Here's my point, but this time in caps: THERE IS NO OTHER SINGLE SHIP IN GAME THAT REQUIRES YOU TO ALWAYS BRING FRIENDS TO FIGHT.
The more the better and the more of your own ecm the better - resulting in larger gangs and more falcons. Never did I say that there weren't tactics that defeat ECM, but I AM saying that those tactics ALWAYS involve more gangmates.
Hope that helps you understand.
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Xcen
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Posted - 2009.09.26 20:30:00 -
[21]
"THERE IS NO OTHER SINGLE SHIP IN GAME THAT REQUIRES YOU TO ALWAYS BRING FRIENDS TO FIGHT."
Ships that can tank more then the dps you can put out... need friends Rapier/huginn, your not getting any closer to him in your bc/etc (depending on distance/etc).. friends help ..and so on
Heres were drone ships actually have an advantage, the dps they put out isnt cut off when they get jammed
to put a question forward If you have a gang vs gang fight does ewar turn the battle if its even ship size? If the ewar ship is countered by anti-ewar mods is it basically useless?
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Kovorix
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Posted - 2009.09.26 20:39:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Kovorix on 26/09/2009 20:42:29
Originally by: Xcen "THERE IS NO OTHER SINGLE SHIP IN GAME THAT REQUIRES YOU TO ALWAYS BRING FRIENDS TO FIGHT."
Ships that can tank more then the dps you can put out... need friends Rapier/huginn, your not getting any closer to him in your bc/etc (depending on distance/etc).. friends help ..and so on
Heres were drone ships actually have an advantage, the dps they put out isnt cut off when they get jammed
to put a question forward If you have a gang vs gang fight does ewar turn the battle if its even ship size? If the ewar ship is countered by anti-ewar mods is it basically useless?
Completely false. There is no ship that can tank battleship sized dps indefinitely (owait im leaving out capital ships). Also, we are talking about fits here, not ship hulls, so this doesn't apply to my point. Of course you can fit certain ships to shut certain other ships down - this is called strategy - whereas falcons can shut ANY ship down (no strategy) and thus must ALWAYS be dealt with using more ships.
Rapiers and huginns are very easily dealt with using drones, lasers, missles, projectiles with barrage, heavy neuts, ect.
There are almost no ships that rely entirely on drones for dps (5x bonused ogres is like 480dps, which is sad as a total dps output), not to mention once jammed, one can't hold tackle and the enemy ship warps off. Also, you cannot choose the correct next target when you are jammed.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.26 20:44:00 -
[23]
Let it burn. I dont care any more.
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Pan Dora
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.09.26 21:03:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kovorix There is a counter to my gank BS, Unfair!!
_ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game. |
LordInvisible
Gallente GK inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.26 21:09:00 -
[25]
ECM is only reason why i dont fly so much solo..
Even small ecm drones are ****..Its hard enough to get 1:2 fights that are not two scorps..1:1 u can only dream..
But when u get 1:1 there is always chance that opponent has falcon handy..it ruins everything..u have to bring your own falcon..but then enemy brings two..so u have to bring two too..and so on.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My story: www.subjectx.net/eng |
Susy Assulu
Caldari Atomic Mexicans
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Posted - 2009.09.26 21:17:00 -
[26]
I guess the falcon will always be OP in small gang situation no matter what you do with it
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.09.26 21:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LordInvisible But when u get 1:1 there is always chance that opponent has falcon handy..it ruins everything..u have to bring your own falcon..but then enemy brings two..so u have to bring two too..and so on..
When you get 1:1 there is always a chance that the opponent has another battleship handy. It ruins everything. You have to bring more DPS, but then the enemy brings two, so you have to bring three, and so on.
I'm not understanding your argument. A Falcon in the fight means that someone is not flying a DPS or tackler. Fitting ECCM makes the Falcon/Rook/Blackbird/Scorpion useless.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2009.09.26 21:39:00 -
[28]
Six months ago called; they want their thread back. _________________________________________________________
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.26 21:43:00 -
[29]
This is EVE, adapt or die.
Falcon got nerfed enough because of whiners like you ( I like how they changed it though, I wouldn't even train for it before, too much FOTM). Now it flies as a combat ship not as an ECM drone.
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Kovorix
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Posted - 2009.09.26 21:54:00 -
[30]
Quote: Fitting ECCM makes the Falcon/Rook/Blackbird/Scorpion useless.
Far from the truth.
Originally by: Tagami Wasp This is EVE, adapt or die.
Falcon got nerfed enough because of whiners like you ( I like how they changed it though, I wouldn't even train for it before, too much FOTM). Now it flies as a combat ship not as an ECM drone.
I hate that stupid saying, if players didn't question and criticize poor game mechanics, how would the game improve? I love this game, I just want to see it made better.
No, check out some lossmails - they are still fit as ecm drones. The nerf was certainly nice, but the problem is with the ECM mechanic as a whole.
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