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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.29 15:43:00 - [31] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong You don't have a basic understanding of what you're arguing against. Or you're specifically biased. Or both. Says the guy who does not know how T2 production works and how it affects the game.... And yes, I am biased against stupid changes like this. Before, 100M spent in faction mods would offer you negligable boost not worth the price. This was all intentional so faction mods are rather not used at all in PVP. With faction ship chnages this rate is broken. It is not my vision, it is how EVE worked for years and there were good reasons for that.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.09.29 15:53:00 - [32] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Originally by: Arthur Frayn I will pay 100 million isk to the first guy who pops Caldor while he's flying a T2 ship if they use a post-Dominion faction ship to do it and can provide a killmail on battleclinic to prove it. You're so on.... Expect to hear from me soon! You get that killmail after the Dominion release and remind me of this thread and I will honour the wager. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Stealthbug	Posted - 2009.09.29 15:56:00 - [33] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Kaileen Starsong You don't have a basic understanding of what you're arguing against. Or you're specifically biased. Or both. Says the guy who does not know how T2 production works and how it affects the game.... And yes, I am biased against stupid changes like this. Before, 100M spent in faction mods would offer you negligable boost not worth the price. This was all intentional so faction mods are rather not used at all in PVP. With faction ship chnages this rate is broken. It is not my vision, it is how EVE worked for years and there were good reasons for that. Did CCP say verbatim that "Faction mods are not worth the price and therefor should not be used for PvP, that's not what they are meant for"? Or are you just whining because you for whatever reason think that your T2 production is going to be less profitable? boo hoo >_>
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.09.29 15:57:00 - [34] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Kaileen Starsong You don't have a basic understanding of what you're arguing against. Or you're specifically biased. Or both. Says the guy who does not know how T2 production works and how it affects the game.... Ok, I admit I'm that clueless Would you, sir, be so kind to enlighten this poor soul on effects T2 production has on this most marvelous of all the worlds and how would making faction ships into what they were supposed to be affects that?
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.29 16:04:00 - [35] Originally by: Chi'kote Ok, this grows tiresome, but one last point: Calling every case against your arguement "irrelevant" doesn't make your case better. I've noticed that while not all cases against you are great, the best ones against you have all been responded with "irrelevant." It means you have no case because you can't defend it against valid arguements. If something was truly irrelevant, you need to explain why, or else it just means you really meant to type "oh dangit, can't think of a way to try and prove that one wrong" Yes, it is tiresome. I am not being personal here but I am not here to 'prove' anything, argue flawed logic or invalid arguments. I already explained why and how faction ships changes are 'breaking' the game or at least they make a major change in how EVE works. 1) Faction ships no longer offer negligable boost over player manufactured ships/items and breaking the ISK/performance value. 2) Faction ships in many(?) cases offer significantly(?) greater performance over player manufactured ships. 3) Faction ships due their increased performance are becoming viable option to player manufactured ships. 4) Faction ships due their attributes and price are becoming viable PVP ships. An advantage in form of pricey eqippment over other player was not supported in EVE for very rational reasons. Because of the 4 points above, this has changed.
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.29 16:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Ok, I admit I'm that clueless Would you, sir, be so kind to enlighten this poor soul on effects T2 production has on this most marvelous of all the worlds and how would making faction ships into what they were supposed to be affects that? I am not your babysitter, sorry.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.09.29 16:20:00 - [37] Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 29/09/2009 16:21:47 Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Ok, I admit I'm that clueless Would you, sir, be so kind to enlighten this poor soul on effects T2 production has on this most marvelous of all the worlds and how would making faction ships into what they were supposed to be affects that? I am not your babysitter, sorry. So you don't want that kind of responsibility but have no isues on passing judgement upon game balance. Ok, enjoy? Even if there is a problem out of fixing faction ships, it's future problem, which can be resolved later(if it will exist even). You're basically saying that it's ok that faction ships are nigh useless for anything, because that way they doesn't compete with T2. So? T1 also competes with T2 in many cases(and quite succesfully). You are exagerrating the advantages of faction ships while not taking into account a lot of factors, hence the bias which makes your position quite futile, as you can see throughout this thread. T2 has no effect on Eve itself, there were times when T2 did not exist. Yet Eve did. Then you had option between T1 and T2, mostly. Now you'll have choice between T1, faction and T2. Yeah, you need to break frames that hinder the game.
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.29 16:25:00 - [38] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong So you don't want that kind of responsibility but have no isues on passing judgement upon game balance. I am not responsible for your ignorance. It is your job to do the homework, not mine. And considering your comment, you still didn't check out how T2 production chain look like.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.09.29 16:29:00 - [39] Originally by: Caldor Mansi And considering your comment, you still didn't check out how T2 production chain look like. I obviously don't need that, just like you obviously don't need to check faction ship acquiring process?
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.09.29 16:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Faction ships should never be a viable choice for PVP.

Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.29 17:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Yes, the [price of faction ships] will be still a bit higher than price for T2 ship, the point is that those ships, at least some of them, will be definately worth their price which is something fundamentaly wrong. That's got to be a troll... +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Chi'kote Serenity Ascension G-R-I-E-V-A-N-C-E	Posted - 2009.09.29 18:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Before, 100M spent in faction mods would offer you negligable boost not worth the price. This was all intentional so faction mods are rather not used at all in PVP. With faction ship chnages this rate is broken. It is not my vision, it is how EVE worked for years and there were good reasons for that. Oh, I said I was done, but I can't resist. First, stop telling people what boosts are worth what price. That is completely relative and varies person to person. Anywho, if I read that right, and if this is the basis of your whole arguement, you are SO wrong. CCP did NOT intentionally set prices of faction mods and determine their boost amounts based on making sure they were not used in PVP. That is the dumbest thing yet I've read in this thread. Faction mod prices are set by the return on investment those acquiring them want vs what those who want to purchase them are willing to pay, a.k.a. supply & demand. Prices got as high as they did because mission runners with endless funds and virtually no risk of loss were willing to dish out huge amounts of isk for moderate boosts. These mods & ships are not common in pvp because the risk of loss is so great, that the increased boost did not outweigh the increased price. Changing faction ships and mods to give better boosts does not break any CCP intention. It simply makes people re-evaluate risk vs reward, which will create a new demand, which based on the supply will create new prices. This is basic market setting prices. CCP has NOTHING to do with determining when and where these mods actually get used. Doing so would go against their core belief of what this game should be. Yes, they have some target prices for certain items they try to influence by changing build costs, drop rates, etc. (just like influencing money value in RL by changing cost via interest rates or supply via bonds), but CCP does not set faction prices and boost amounts to prohibit their use in PVP. DUMBEST THOUGHT EVER
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.29 18:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Caldor Mansi Faction ships should never be a viable choice for PVP. Indeed. I Think someone got owned by a Faction Ship on Tranquillity or something, either that or they sold theirs right before the goldrush happened. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Holy Cheater Monks of War Banzai Boyz	Posted - 2009.09.29 19:11:00 - [44] Faction ships are expensive and they're nothing but a waste of money if they can't compete with tech 2
Vyktor Abyss Gallente The Abyss Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.29 19:37:00 - [45] I thought it was Fraction ships?
ark maphar	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:26:00 - [46] just why, WHY should faction ships be less powerful then t2? faction has had top pirate scientists using highly black-market tech, designed to take on the standard capsuleer ships with ease, and t2 is just a overworked science lab and a lot of quafe. faction ship= one big rig+uber black market stuff t2 ships=one big rig-uber black market stuff
Stealthbug	Posted - 2009.09.29 21:54:00 - [47] Originally by: ark maphar just why, WHY should faction ships be less powerful then t2? faction has had top pirate scientists using highly black-market tech, designed to take on the standard capsuleer ships with ease, and t2 is just a overworked science lab and a lot of quafe. faction ship= one big rig+uber black market stuff t2 ships=one big rig-uber black market stuff This.
Comodore John Gallente YSS Industries	Posted - 2009.09.30 00:01:00 - [48] Just finished reading this thread. Now, you complain that faction ships are stronger than T2 and thus should not be used in PvP. This has got to be the most idiotic claim in this whole thread. Faction ships should be better than T2 for their price. Just because CCP decided they needed a buff to make them a bit more cost effective does not mean they will replace T2. If you're willing to spend that extra 100m+ to get a bit more performance, you should be able to get a ship the same size of a HAC with better performance.
Sharp Feather Gallente POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem	Posted - 2009.09.30 00:51:00 - [49] More kind of ships flying around is a GOOD thing for everyone and you argument is as meaningless as it is stupid. If you have to whine about something why dont you whine about something that every body hate... the interface. LOGIC & MORE LOGIC
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Chi'kote Oh, I said I was done, but I can't resist. First, stop telling people what boosts are worth what price. That is completely relative and varies person to person. Anywho, if I read that right, and if this is the basis of your whole arguement, you are SO wrong. CCP did NOT intentionally set prices of faction mods and determine their boost amounts based on making sure they were not used in PVP. That is the dumbest thing yet I've read in this thread. Faction mod prices are set by the return on investment those acquiring them want vs what those who want to purchase them are willing to pay, a.k.a. supply & demand. Prices got as high as they did because mission runners with endless funds and virtually no risk of loss were willing to dish out huge amounts of isk for moderate boosts. These mods & ships are not common in pvp because the risk of loss is so great, that the increased boost did not outweigh the increased price. Changing faction ships and mods to give better boosts does not break any CCP intention. It simply makes people re-evaluate risk vs reward, which will create a new demand, which based on the supply will create new prices. This is basic market setting prices. CCP has NOTHING to do with determining when and where these mods actually get used. Doing so would go against their core belief of what this game should be. Yes, they have some target prices for certain items they try to influence by changing build costs, drop rates, etc. (just like influencing money value in RL by changing cost via interest rates or supply via bonds), but CCP does not set faction prices and boost amounts to prohibit their use in PVP. DUMBEST THOUGHT EVER There is a truly noticeable intention not to make those items rare, expensive and unique. That is why they are obtainable via rare spawn drops or as a reward after x of completed missions only, that 'supply issue' is not adjusted like it was done with other less used produced items, that those items are obtainable via 1 man effort while produced item production rely on x involved people... At the end, CCP has certainly nothing to do with this.

Stealthbug	Posted - 2009.09.30 14:35:00 - [51] I sure hope you don't think that your T2 production will be impacted in any way by faction ships becoming more useful and ever so slightly more common. Because if that's the case, then you're wrong. >_>;


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