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Can we think seriously about the tier system?

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Renarla	Posted - 2009.10.09 01:43:00 - [1] Edited by: Renarla on 09/10/2009 01:45:06 Their tier system of ships we've had since the beginning of EVE has worked out fine for the top tier ships, and sometimes the second-to-best is a flyable ship (Vexor, Stabber, Incursus... can't really think of others off of the top of my head.) but it has rendered the vast majority of ships in the game useless. The BS class tiers are how the rest of the ships in the game should be balanced.. However, the BS tiers work only for two real reasons: Cost difference. A Domi hull costs ~50m, and a Hyperion hull ~150m. That's a very significant difference, when (other than fufilling a completely different role) the Hype "only" gets 1 more total slot than the Domi. (19 compared to 18) However, these two balances are greatly nullified (price) and exaggerated (slot differences) when brought to other ship levels. An Atron has 6 total slots, while a Tristan has 10. This difference is HUGE. A Domi beating a Hyp is nothing special, happens all of the time. (Replace Domi and Hyp with any tier 1 and tier 3 BS, I know this is a bad example but I'm just staying consistent here) However, you will NEVER see an Atron best a Tristan- it just won't happen. And, a Tier 3 frigate may be over ten times the cost of a tier 1 frigate, but ~200,000 isk compared to ~20,000 isk is a negligible difference for any player over a week old. (Hell, even a day or two old nowadays.) Cruisers and Battlecruisers each experience the same issues to progressively less intense levels. Tier 2 Cruisers (Vexor, Stabber, Maller (Even if only as bait), and Caracal) all see plenty of use, and all 8 Battlecruisers (Aside from the Prophecy) see a reasonable amount of use. The problem still exists, however- Celestis, Bellicose, and Augoror are all sad little ships, almost even moreso than the low-tier frigates. Buffing all of the lower tier ships so that the Frigate, Cruiser, and Battlecruiser ship tiers perform similar to the Battleship tiers would GREATLY increase the amount of ships that see flight by players who know what they're doing. The game seems to be losing diversity with more and more streamlined setups, adding more usable ships is something the game desperately needs in my opinion. However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs.
KustoMKilleR Axe Gang	Posted - 2009.10.09 02:45:00 - [2] Edited by: KustoMKilleR on 09/10/2009 02:45:20 Originally by: Renarla whine seriously....lower tier ships can be fun in if you fit them right and choose your targets carefully. Take the Bellicose for example. fit right it can make a cool little anti tackler ship in gangs. The Celestis can probably be used as an anti support ship damping down ECM or logistics & such. just gotta think outside the box. Shununununun....... --------------
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:10:00 - [3] mhmm... buff the blackbird... i can see it now buuuut he does have a point; i really don't see the use for a slasher. and as much as one can praise the scythe for its mining bonus, it can't even be abused for anything helpful like the osprey or the exequror. - putting the gist back into logistics
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:19:00 - [4] The entire concept of a "tiered" system is flawed. Why would you want to establish an empirical best in a class? All ships of a class should either be role defined or attempt to be balanced. Having ships be tiered is just an excuse for poor balancing ability.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:28:00 - [5] Originally by: Asuka Smith The entire concept of a "tiered" system is flawed. Why would you want to establish an empirical best in a class? All ships of a class should either be role defined or attempt to be balanced. Having ships be tiered is just an excuse for poor balancing ability. This. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.10.09 03:32:00 - [6] Scrap the whole obsolete mess. It might have been a good idea in 2003 when Cruiser II vs Cruiser III was a difficult training decision, and 4 million ISK vs. 5 million ISK was a week of mining, but in today's EVE, fast skill training times and much greater income mean that the difference is pretty trivial. Even more so once you include insurance, which brings the difference between tiers to such a minimal level that it's not even worth considering. So: set all skill requirements and build costs to the same level, then give the lower-tier ships a bit of a boost (where necessary) to bring them up to the level of the higher-tier ships. -----------
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.09 05:00:00 - [7] Goumindong's proposal for dropping the tier system was quite possibly the smartest thing he ever posted. I supported it then, and now. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Renarla	Posted - 2009.10.09 05:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Liang Nuren Goumindong's proposal for dropping the tier system was quite possibly the smartest thing he ever posted. I supported it then, and now. -Liang Goumindong = Merin? If so, I agree on all counts. However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.09 05:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Renarla Goumindong = Merin? If so, I agree on all counts. Heh, I don't think so. IIRC, Goum was in Goons and Merin was in BOB back when Goons and Bob were going at it. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Renarla	Posted - 2009.10.09 05:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Renarla Goumindong = Merin? If so, I agree on all counts. Heh, I don't think so. IIRC, Goum was in Goons and Merin was in BOB back when Goons and Bob were going at it. -Liang Ah, I was assuming you were talking about someone that had posted in this thread- seeing as there is no "Goumindong", and Merin was the only one to propose dropping the whole tier system outright, I assumed that you meant him. Mind linking to the post/thread/whatever your referring to? However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.09 05:42:00 - [11] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/10/2009 05:45:45 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/10/2009 05:42:13 Goumindong on webs: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/597162/page/1 Goumindong on Amarr and the Tier system: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/568374/page/1 -Liang Ed: Before you go thinking he's a nubtard (he is, but hold on)... remember this was before any boosts to Amarr. I think there might have been the pulse tracking boost by then. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.10.09 06:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/10/2009 05:45:45 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/10/2009 05:42:13 Goumindong on webs: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/597162/page/1 Goumindong on Amarr and the Tier system: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/568374/page/1 -Liang Ed: Before you go thinking he's a nubtard (he is, but hold on)... remember this was before any boosts to Amarr. I think there might have been the pulse tracking boost by then. Goum had some good ideas, most bad heh EVE Trivia EVE History
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.09 06:08:00 - [13] Originally by: BiggestT Goum had some good ideas, most bad heh Heh, I won't deny that we rarely saw eye to eye.... but abolishing the tier system was a really really good idea. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Walker Bulldog Minmatar VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Renarla However, the BS tiers work only for two real reasons: Cost difference. A Domi hull costs ~50m, and a Hyperion hull ~150m. That's a very significant difference Does the hull cost really matter? Insurance covers it, only thing you lose when it blows up is fittings.
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Asuka Smith The entire concept of a "tiered" system is flawed. Why would you want to establish an empirical best in a class? All ships of a class should either be role defined or attempt to be balanced. Having ships be tiered is just an excuse for poor balancing ability. All ships in a class can be defined and balanced by players. You truly didn't understand the approach of individual fitting, creativity and adapting. With balancing you obviously mean equalizing, which is nonsense in a universe where diversity is important.
Forge Lag Jita Lag Preservation Fund	Posted - 2009.10.09 08:52:00 - [16] The tier system is obsolete but it hardly matters. The only place where it shows are BCs. BSs compare fine to each other (naaah who am I kidding give my Domi Hyper HP). Frigs and cruisers hardly matter any more (really, BCs cost almost the same if you are going to lose them and have much better performance). So it really boils down to: improve the BC lineup so there is actually some choice. That is much simpler proposal but it is still not happening. CCP no longer makes game, they make business, and better BCs do not make covers and do not sell Plex. They just make the already hooked small fish happier and game better. Who fk cares.
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.10.09 09:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr Originally by: Asuka Smith The entire concept of a "tiered" system is flawed. Why would you want to establish an empirical best in a class? All ships of a class should either be role defined or attempt to be balanced. Having ships be tiered is just an excuse for poor balancing ability. All ships in a class can be defined and balanced by players. You truly didn't understand the approach of individual fitting, creativity and adapting. With balancing you obviously mean equalizing, which is nonsense in a universe where diversity is important. Celestis is worthless, it is simply inferior. It will never be used ever. This is poor balancing.
ropnes	Posted - 2009.10.09 09:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr All ships in a class can be defined and balanced by players. You truly didn't understand the approach of individual fitting, creativity and adapting. Celestis is worthless, it is simply inferior. It will never be used ever. This is poor balancing. Did you read what he said? I've come up with more than one useful Celestis fitting Yes, the RSD bonus is worthless but it still has 5 mids, 3 turret slots and a 40m3 dronebay with sufficient bandwidth
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.09 09:54:00 - [19] frigates are made for new players. BSs are not. no reason to have them behave same. tier 2 frigates especially are suited for new players. cheap, but still with enough room for choices. don't underestimate entry level. we have all been there, and everyone will have to pass through there, faster or slower. 100k may not be much for you and me, but for someone that plays less than hour per day, it is a big deal. if you want to compare "average" player frigates, compare T2: interceptors, assaults, ewar, covop have about similar slot layouts and price. frequency of appearance is another matter, tho, mostly varies enough. i do agree that specific ships/classes have problems, but price progression is generally not an issue.
Pax Empyrean	Posted - 2009.10.09 12:42:00 - [20] Edited by: Pax Empyrean on 09/10/2009 12:42:39 Quote: All ships in a class can be defined and balanced by players. You truly didn't understand the approach of individual fitting, creativity and adapting. Player creativity is totally enough to make a Breacher as good as a Rifter. /stupid When I mentioned the Breacher, did you think something along the lines of, "Is that the missile one?" Each race has maybe two frigates that see regular use, and all the others combined hardly see the light of day. It doesn't help that the lower tier frigates have just over half as many module slots. There's not a whole lot of opportunities for "creativity, adaptation and individual fitting" if your ship doesn't have room for modules to put on it.
Susy Assulu Caldari Atomic Mexicans	Posted - 2009.10.09 13:50:00 - [21] Interesting, personally I think frigates would be a good place to start for the whole 'tier' balancing thing. But it would have to be done carefully as I would hate to see the frigate class becoming homogeneous. As others have mentioned the slot layout/fitting is probably what is holding them back.
Nalena Arlath	Posted - 2009.10.09 14:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: BiggestT but abolishing the tier system was a really really good idea. -Liang This is the same thing I said in the ongoing thread about T3 frigates. Scrap the whole tier system, let all ship hulls in game have a base bonus, and implement the T3 system with adding ship modules, rigs and traditional modules across the board. Give us diversity through additional modules to slot, rather than diversity through adding new overpowered T3 ships that proceed to make even more T1 and T2 ships obsolete. Also easier to balance the building blocks in the game, than trying to balance each ship type, class, size and roles constantly. Even worse with the addition of multiple new ships that need to constantly balanced to be "a bit better but not overpowered" compared to the lower tiers. The best addition of ships to this game was the T2 frigate variants, since they offered a multitude of new roles. Ewar, AF's, Inty's, Cov-ops and stealthbombers all function entirely different from eachother. So what are new ships going to bring to the game? We already have all roles filled, supersize ships are already ingame... so what? Scrap the whole tier system! If you want tiers, let the modules, equipment and rigs have different tiers. That way your ship can become a "T2", it just requires fitting T2 modules. We see the ship hulls becomming obsolete because of the tier system, but do we see the various modules becomming obsolete yet? Not really, people still use Meta 1 and Meta 2 modules in their ships, because of the PG/CPU requirements and their skills (or lack of skills). Do people still fly Executioners? Prophecy? Inquisitor? Condor? No, because those ships are total crap compared to everything else out there, and you have no way of actually making them any better since the tier system has them pre-determined to be flying coffins. Instead of adding to the problem by adding more tiers of ships, I really think the time has come (maybe been past after the T3 ships were implemented), to do a major revamp of the entire ship base and implement the T3 system across the board.
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.10.09 17:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Scrap the whole obsolete mess. It might have been a good idea in 2003 when Cruiser II vs Cruiser III was a difficult training decision, and 4 million ISK vs. 5 million ISK was a week of mining, but in today's EVE, fast skill training times and much greater income mean that the difference is pretty trivial. Even more so once you include insurance, which brings the difference between tiers to such a minimal level that it's not even worth considering. So: set all skill requirements and build costs to the same level, then give the lower-tier ships a bit of a boost (where necessary) to bring them up to the level of the higher-tier ships. Merin wrote something that I... agree with? Wow. /me watches pigs fly by his window as the apocalypse occurs and prepares to visit a frozen hell. ----- The Python Cartel - My Pirate Blog
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:31:00 - [24] Originally by: ropnes Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr All ships in a class can be defined and balanced by players. You truly didn't understand the approach of individual fitting, creativity and adapting. Celestis is worthless, it is simply inferior. It will never be used ever. This is poor balancing. Did you read what he said? I've come up with more than one useful Celestis fitting Yes, the RSD bonus is worthless but it still has 5 mids, 3 turret slots and a 40m3 dronebay with sufficient bandwidth Oh yeah?
Gnosis19 Caldari Ichizoku DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:39:00 - [25] Originally by: Jagga Spikes frigates are made for new players. BSs are not. no reason to have them behave same. tier 2 frigates especially are suited for new players. cheap, but still with enough room for choices. don't underestimate entry level. we have all been there, and everyone will have to pass through there, faster or slower. 100k may not be much for you and me, but for someone that plays less than hour per day, it is a big deal. if you want to compare "average" player frigates, compare T2: interceptors, assaults, ewar, covop have about similar slot layouts and price. frequency of appearance is another matter, tho, mostly varies enough. i do agree that specific ships/classes have problems, but price progression is generally not an issue. Frigates are not just for 'new players'. They serve a purpose in PvP as tacklers. The Rifter is a very famous frigate for its use in PvP by new and old players alike and it's not inconcievable to kill T2 frigates in it. I agree that it would be nice to see more frigates used like the Rifter. -- Gnosis19, CEO ICHIZOKU
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:45:00 - [26] Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: ropnes Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr All ships in a class can be defined and balanced by players. You truly didn't understand the approach of individual fitting, creativity and adapting. Celestis is worthless, it is simply inferior. It will never be used ever. This is poor balancing. Did you read what he said? I've come up with more than one useful Celestis fitting Yes, the RSD bonus is worthless but it still has 5 mids, 3 turret slots and a 40m3 dronebay with sufficient bandwidth Oh yeah? OH YEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Renarla	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:01:00 - [27] Edited by: Renarla on 09/10/2009 21:01:15 Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: ropnes Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr All ships in a class can be defined and balanced by players. You truly didn't understand the approach of individual fitting, creativity and adapting. Celestis is worthless, it is simply inferior. It will never be used ever. This is poor balancing. Did you read what he said? I've come up with more than one useful Celestis fitting Yes, the RSD bonus is worthless but it still has 5 mids, 3 turret slots and a 40m3 dronebay with sufficient bandwidth Celestis can be used as sort of a "SUPRISE" ship with an okay tank and okay DPS, but a Vexor will do both better. [Celestis, Not Primary] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction Hammerhead II x3 Hobgoblin II x2 However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs.
foobarx	Posted - 2009.10.11 01:55:00 - [28] I like the tier system, myself. I will sometimes fly a lower tier ship as a handicap against newer players or just to see just how much performance can be squeezed out of every ISK. One of these days I'm gonna have a killmail wherein my Breacher has laid a Rifter low. The build costs could use an adjustment, though. As it stands today there's a much bigger gap in performance than price for almost every platform.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.10.11 03:15:00 - [29] The tier system is pretty much a non-issue. Battleships - its already meaningless for all races. Battlecruisers - Its somewhat meaningful. The Ferox and the Brutix simply have different roles. The Cyclone has a is just a different but weaker flavor of the Hurricane. The Prophecy - ya its a piece of crap. Cruisers and Frigs - The best ones are already nothing more than lolfits and a way way for newbs to tag along, its not like we need a bigger variety of these. So basically you want all CCP to redo teirs - for 1.5 ships. Heres an idea - Redesign the the Prophecy for a new role instead and move on. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.10.11 03:23:00 - [30] I've always thought slot total count should be much the same for all ships regardless of class or tier. Just like I've always thought all modules that effect a ship other than your own (EW, etc) should be high slot. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.

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