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Capacitor Flux Foolishness

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Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.10.28 17:31:00 - [1] What good is this capacitor flux module!? You can get the same recharge rate boost with the power diagnostic I, but with more cap!! The hidden fact is that reducing the amount of cap is going to reduce your recharge rate. So giving you 20% recharge rate increase does not end up being 20%. Here is an example; Cap: 1243 Charge time: 244 Averate rate: 5.09 cap/s With basic cap flux Cap: 1119 Charge time: 195 Average rate: 5.74 cap/s That is a net rate increase of 12%. Contrast that with Power Diagnostic I Cap: 1298 Charge time: 226 Average rate: 5.74 cap/s That is the same rate, but I have a larger cap, AND I get shield bonuses and power bonuses too! And don't think the Cap Flux I module is any better either, look Cap Flux I Cap: 1057 Charge time: 183 Averate rate: 5.78 That is basically the same as the basic module!! But the cap flux I requires a skill level of 4!! WTH is going on??? I suppose the only possible benefit is as a counter to Nosferatu. But while you counter the nos, the side drawbacks like less power are going to kill you. What foolishness. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.10.28 17:31:00 - [2] What good is this capacitor flux module!? You can get the same recharge rate boost with the power diagnostic I, but with more cap!! The hidden fact is that reducing the amount of cap is going to reduce your recharge rate. So giving you 20% recharge rate increase does not end up being 20%. Here is an example; Cap: 1243 Charge time: 244 Averate rate: 5.09 cap/s With basic cap flux Cap: 1119 Charge time: 195 Average rate: 5.74 cap/s That is a net rate increase of 12%. Contrast that with Power Diagnostic I Cap: 1298 Charge time: 226 Average rate: 5.74 cap/s That is the same rate, but I have a larger cap, AND I get shield bonuses and power bonuses too! And don't think the Cap Flux I module is any better either, look Cap Flux I Cap: 1057 Charge time: 183 Averate rate: 5.78 That is basically the same as the basic module!! But the cap flux I requires a skill level of 4!! WTH is going on??? I suppose the only possible benefit is as a counter to Nosferatu. But while you counter the nos, the side drawbacks like less power are going to kill you. What foolishness. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Taruk Karapleides	Posted - 2004.10.28 18:13:00 - [3] Well, at least you can reprocess a Cap Flux Coil I for a little Isogen (and the other dross, of course). But, other than that, it doesn't seem to have much to recommend it. The Basic Cap Flux Coil yields only Trit and Pyerite. So, its not even good melt fodder...hardly worth looting it really.
Taruk Karapleides	Posted - 2004.10.28 18:13:00 - [4] Well, at least you can reprocess a Cap Flux Coil I for a little Isogen (and the other dross, of course). But, other than that, it doesn't seem to have much to recommend it. The Basic Cap Flux Coil yields only Trit and Pyerite. So, its not even good melt fodder...hardly worth looting it really.
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.10.28 18:43:00 - [5] if anyone is building the cap flux coil II's im willing to buy them for 2.5m a piece. contact me ingame. --------------------------
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.10.28 18:43:00 - [6] if anyone is building the cap flux coil II's im willing to buy them for 2.5m a piece. contact me ingame. --------------------------
Kitten Hearder	Posted - 2004.10.28 19:25:00 - [7] Originally by: Taruk Karapleides Well, at least you can reprocess a Cap Flux Coil I for a little Isogen (and the other dross, of course). Wow. I am honestly impressed with your vocabulary. I haven't seen the word "dross" used since the early 90s. Very good word. Right up there with feculent and recalcitrant. --------- Kitten Hearder Evolution made my sig Less Entertaining than your's.
Kitten Hearder	Posted - 2004.10.28 19:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Taruk Karapleides Well, at least you can reprocess a Cap Flux Coil I for a little Isogen (and the other dross, of course). Wow. I am honestly impressed with your vocabulary. I haven't seen the word "dross" used since the early 90s. Very good word. Right up there with feculent and recalcitrant. --------- Kitten Hearder Evolution made my sig Less Entertaining than your's.
Bubba1977	Posted - 2004.10.28 23:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Kitten Hearder Originally by: Taruk Karapleides Well, at least you can reprocess a Cap Flux Coil I for a little Isogen (and the other dross, of course). Wow. I am honestly impressed with your vocabulary. I haven't seen the word "dross" used since the early 90s. Very good word. Right up there with feculent and recalcitrant. And antipenultimate. __________________________________________________
Bubba1977	Posted - 2004.10.28 23:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Kitten Hearder Originally by: Taruk Karapleides Well, at least you can reprocess a Cap Flux Coil I for a little Isogen (and the other dross, of course). Wow. I am honestly impressed with your vocabulary. I haven't seen the word "dross" used since the early 90s. Very good word. Right up there with feculent and recalcitrant. And antipenultimate. __________________________________________________
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.10.29 07:10:00 - [11] bump. i need coil II's :D --------------------------
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.10.29 07:10:00 - [12] bump. i need coil II's :D --------------------------
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.10.30 20:34:00 - [13] rebump, i reaaaaaally need them. --------------------------
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.10.30 20:34:00 - [14] rebump, i reaaaaaally need them. --------------------------
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2004.10.30 23:29:00 - [15] well they are obviously better for ships with a high charge time and/or low cap. But other than that, i have no real clue how they are supposed to be really usefull, the coil I is even worse than the basic one if i'm not mistaken (-10% cap, -20% charge time vs -15% cap, -25% charge time). the apoc would have less use for it then tempest or raven (apoc 4800 cap tempy/raven 4250, same charge time). ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2004.10.30 23:29:00 - [16] well they are obviously better for ships with a high charge time and/or low cap. But other than that, i have no real clue how they are supposed to be really usefull, the coil I is even worse than the basic one if i'm not mistaken (-10% cap, -20% charge time vs -15% cap, -25% charge time). the apoc would have less use for it then tempest or raven (apoc 4800 cap tempy/raven 4250, same charge time). ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.10.30 23:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Reatu Krentor well they are obviously better for ships with a high charge time and/or low cap. But other than that, i have no real clue how they are supposed to be really usefull, the coil I is even worse than the basic one if i'm not mistaken (-10% cap, -20% charge time vs -15% cap, -25% charge time). the apoc would have less use for it then tempest or raven (apoc 4800 cap tempy/raven 4250, same charge time). well the apoc would rather use teh power relay, wich gimps shieldtanking. so guess why i _need_ coils? pdu's wont do, they have to high rechargetime, when i need cap i need it now, it matters less if i have less than if it recharges slowly. --------------------------
Elrathias	Posted - 2004.10.30 23:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Reatu Krentor well they are obviously better for ships with a high charge time and/or low cap. But other than that, i have no real clue how they are supposed to be really usefull, the coil I is even worse than the basic one if i'm not mistaken (-10% cap, -20% charge time vs -15% cap, -25% charge time). the apoc would have less use for it then tempest or raven (apoc 4800 cap tempy/raven 4250, same charge time). well the apoc would rather use teh power relay, wich gimps shieldtanking. so guess why i _need_ coils? pdu's wont do, they have to high rechargetime, when i need cap i need it now, it matters less if i have less than if it recharges slowly. --------------------------
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.11.01 13:00:00 - [19] Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/11/2004 13:02:36 Originally by: Elrathias well the apoc would rather use teh power relay, wich gimps shieldtanking. so guess why i _need_ coils? pdu's wont do, they have to high rechargetime, when i need cap i need it now, it matters less if i have less than if it recharges slowly. Did you NOT see my calculations proving that the PDS and the T1 coils provide the SAME recharge time? And if your suggesting that you shield tank, need I say more? ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.11.01 13:00:00 - [20] Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/11/2004 13:02:36 Originally by: Elrathias well the apoc would rather use teh power relay, wich gimps shieldtanking. so guess why i _need_ coils? pdu's wont do, they have to high rechargetime, when i need cap i need it now, it matters less if i have less than if it recharges slowly. Did you NOT see my calculations proving that the PDS and the T1 coils provide the SAME recharge time? And if your suggesting that you shield tank, need I say more? ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Pottsey	Posted - 2004.11.01 13:20:00 - [21] Edited by: Pottsey on 01/11/2004 13:23:35 It would be good if we at long last got both cap and shield flux II modules. Along with Shield recharges and Power relays II. I need to get my recharge a little faster. I would go for shield recharges over a PDU any day. Same for cap recargers. Though a mix sometimes works best over. Never pure PDU setups. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Pottsey	Posted - 2004.11.01 13:20:00 - [22] Edited by: Pottsey on 01/11/2004 13:23:35 It would be good if we at long last got both cap and shield flux II modules. Along with Shield recharges and Power relays II. I need to get my recharge a little faster. I would go for shield recharges over a PDU any day. Same for cap recargers. Though a mix sometimes works best over. Never pure PDU setups. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Nafri	Posted - 2004.11.01 13:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Imhotep Khem Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/11/2004 13:02:36 Originally by: Elrathias well the apoc would rather use teh power relay, wich gimps shieldtanking. so guess why i _need_ coils? pdu's wont do, they have to high rechargetime, when i need cap i need it now, it matters less if i have less than if it recharges slowly. Did you NOT see my calculations proving that the PDS and the T1 coils provide the SAME recharge time? And if your suggesting that you shield tank, need I say more? recharge time is a bit different than your math suggests it all depends on the maximal recharge time you have at the low-middle of your cap Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.11.01 13:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Imhotep Khem Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/11/2004 13:02:36 Originally by: Elrathias well the apoc would rather use teh power relay, wich gimps shieldtanking. so guess why i _need_ coils? pdu's wont do, they have to high rechargetime, when i need cap i need it now, it matters less if i have less than if it recharges slowly. Did you NOT see my calculations proving that the PDS and the T1 coils provide the SAME recharge time? And if your suggesting that you shield tank, need I say more? recharge time is a bit different than your math suggests it all depends on the maximal recharge time you have at the low-middle of your cap Wanna fly with me?
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.11.01 14:56:00 - [25] Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/11/2004 15:00:37 Originally by: Nafri recharge time is a bit different than your math suggests it all depends on the maximal recharge time you have at the low-middle of your cap And somehow this makes the equations behave differently for PDS than for Flux? I don't think so, but note that this is why I stated 'average' recharge rate. My equation is simplistic, and while we know recharging of shield and cap is not linear (as my equation sugests), I do not see how this makes any difference. the rate is the same for PDS as it is for flux, but with PDS you have more cap to begin with, and shield, and shield recharge bonus, etc. Are we just trying to keep the cat in the bag, or is there any real evidence to refute my claims? ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.11.01 14:56:00 - [26] Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/11/2004 15:00:37 Originally by: Nafri recharge time is a bit different than your math suggests it all depends on the maximal recharge time you have at the low-middle of your cap And somehow this makes the equations behave differently for PDS than for Flux? I don't think so, but note that this is why I stated 'average' recharge rate. My equation is simplistic, and while we know recharging of shield and cap is not linear (as my equation sugests), I do not see how this makes any difference. the rate is the same for PDS as it is for flux, but with PDS you have more cap to begin with, and shield, and shield recharge bonus, etc. Are we just trying to keep the cat in the bag, or is there any real evidence to refute my claims? ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Pottsey	Posted - 2004.11.01 15:57:00 - [27] What about stacking penalty. I was under the impression the penalty was based on the amount of modules that boost the same stats. Not based on the module total boost. IE 1 module is 0% penalty while 2 modules are 3% penalty and 3 modules boosting the same stat is a 6% penalty total. Or something along those lines. That would mean a PDS does not work as well when you use more then 1. As you getting say a 15% total boost ( or what ever the correct number is) with a 6% penalty for 3 modules. While the flux would be a lot higher then 15% total boost but still only a 6% penalty for 3 modules. Or have I got it wrong and the stacking penalty is based on the boost% not amount of modules? What is the correct stacking penalty? _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Pottsey	Posted - 2004.11.01 15:57:00 - [28] What about stacking penalty. I was under the impression the penalty was based on the amount of modules that boost the same stats. Not based on the module total boost. IE 1 module is 0% penalty while 2 modules are 3% penalty and 3 modules boosting the same stat is a 6% penalty total. Or something along those lines. That would mean a PDS does not work as well when you use more then 1. As you getting say a 15% total boost ( or what ever the correct number is) with a 6% penalty for 3 modules. While the flux would be a lot higher then 15% total boost but still only a 6% penalty for 3 modules. Or have I got it wrong and the stacking penalty is based on the boost% not amount of modules? What is the correct stacking penalty? _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.11.01 16:41:00 - [29] The penaltys are based on the thing being boosted, not the module doing the boosting. So it does not matter if you mix module types, you will still be penalized. Also, I do not know the stats on the flux coil IIs so I can not say wether or not they are good. But I still can't see how a cap flux coil II would be better than a PDS II!? This is just my belief, but I started the thread wondering if I was missing something. I think many people don't realize that the cap recharge time is a property of your ship, and not cap recharge rate. So meerly increasing your cap size through whatever means is going to increase your rate since the time stays the same. On that same note, reducing your cap size is reducing your recharge rate too. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.11.01 16:41:00 - [30] The penaltys are based on the thing being boosted, not the module doing the boosting. So it does not matter if you mix module types, you will still be penalized. Also, I do not know the stats on the flux coil IIs so I can not say wether or not they are good. But I still can't see how a cap flux coil II would be better than a PDS II!? This is just my belief, but I started the thread wondering if I was missing something. I think many people don't realize that the cap recharge time is a property of your ship, and not cap recharge rate. So meerly increasing your cap size through whatever means is going to increase your rate since the time stays the same. On that same note, reducing your cap size is reducing your recharge rate too. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2004.11.01 17:27:00 - [31] Cap flux coil has always been a rather silly module imo. You can see how it compares with other cap modules here It is the yellow line and pdu is the magenta one. The basically have the same maximum recharge rate but the pdu has a significally larger "sweet spot". __________ Capacitor research
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2004.11.01 17:27:00 - [32] Cap flux coil has always been a rather silly module imo. You can see how it compares with other cap modules here It is the yellow line and pdu is the magenta one. The basically have the same maximum recharge rate but the pdu has a significally larger "sweet spot". __________ Capacitor research
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.11.02 01:18:00 - [33] thats is a nice graph, what does each axis represent? ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.11.02 01:18:00 - [34] thats is a nice graph, what does each axis represent? ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Kakita Jalaan	Posted - 2004.11.02 06:44:00 - [35] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 02/11/2004 06:48:17 Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 02/11/2004 06:47:50 Interesting... how did you take the data? (the axes are probably cap recharge rate/sec over total cap, on a ship that has ~1100 max without mods)
Kakita Jalaan	Posted - 2004.11.02 06:44:00 - [36] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 02/11/2004 06:48:17 Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 02/11/2004 06:47:50 Interesting... how did you take the data? (the axes are probably cap recharge rate/sec over total cap, on a ship that has ~1100 max without mods)
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2004.11.02 15:16:00 - [37] Well this was kind of typical of me posting a graph were I don't label the axis and don't explain what it says You are right it is cap recharge rate vs. cap. I used a moa and didn't apply any skills. The curve I found out with a little luck, work and matlab. I made a little thread about in this forum. clicky __________ Capacitor research
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2004.11.02 15:16:00 - [38] Well this was kind of typical of me posting a graph were I don't label the axis and don't explain what it says You are right it is cap recharge rate vs. cap. I used a moa and didn't apply any skills. The curve I found out with a little luck, work and matlab. I made a little thread about in this forum. clicky __________ Capacitor research

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