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Seriously, why is carebearing so despised by some?

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Y3R M4W	Posted - 2009.10.13 11:45:00 - [121] It seems a lot of the arguments boil down to 'realists' vs. 'virtualists' (or something else appropriate ), where realists complain about the ISK faucets breaking the realism in and balance of the economy, virtualists claim that this is irrelevant next to the "it's a game and should support all play styles" argument. Both have some merit. As I see it, mission running will not do much, if any, long term harm (as has been the case up until this point), ISK faucets are required as as the player-base increases the amount of ISK in-game must also be allowed to increase. Additionally, as restrictions on the 'value' of ISK are raised (such as seeded shuttles effectively anchoring the price of trit, meaning ships/modules and the time to make them had a minimum ISK value) the time value of ISK will adjust relative to its supply. Note: YER MAW! is Scottish for Your Mother.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.13 11:45:00 - [122] Originally by: Merasa Tro Need an isk faucet somewhere in the chain. Dont we? (serious question, not rehtorical) Yes we do, but those faucets need to be balanced against the sinks, and carebears tend to make sure to avoid those at all costs (put not intended). The problem is that these carebears are pumping huge amounts of ISK into the system and not taking any out; they are pumping not-quite-as-huge amounts of items in there as well, and not taking any out. If the two were balanced, we'd at least have no inflation, but that's not the case and we do. This huge influx also, if not overshadows, then at least devalues other activities aimed at doing the same thing (eg. mining). Compare this to ship combat, where you combine one sink (items) with one faucet (ISK) into what's essentially a value conversion mechanism. In the best of world, the two are balanced at a 1:1 conversion and the overall value remains the same because at some other point in the chain we have an equally balanced items-for-ISK conversion. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.10.13 11:47:00 - [123] Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 13/10/2009 11:49:53 Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Tippia On what matter is that, exactly, especially since I'm not complaining about the efficiencyà? This: Originally by: Tippia I will when they stop doing it. Have a look at the economy presentation for a quick rundown of how they wreck things, if you're confused about why it's not a particularly silly thing to say. Or just use some common sense and understanding of how the EVE market works. Originally by: Tippia No. Explain what you mean. If you are not able to keep carebears apart from L4 and you in all seriousness put bots(Unholy rage), carebears and L4 in one bag, you are either complete ignorant or have a hate issue. Carebears as phenomenon are absolutely no issue economicaly wise. Also, the presentation was well, a bit of ****...hehe...
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.13 11:49:00 - [124] People get annoyed at people who steadfastly refuse to try something they enjoy, especially if this detracts from their own enjoyment. A football fan who cant understand why his mate wont come see the game with him, the fan of a T.v show whose freinds cant be bothered checking it out. It is the people who cant see why others might have a different view that rant on the forums, and give everyone else a headache. A few pvpers moan about carebears. A few die hard "its my right not to try anything that might be risky" carebears moan about gankers. No one else gives a toss. The op confuses people who see a fundamental flaw in the game (Le skunk on the terrible state of lo-sec thanks to the over-resourcing of hi sec) with ganker trolls. Likewise many pvpers see perfectly sensible questions (why the hell do suicide gankers get full insurance??) as just more die hard carebear whining trying to get their own way. The vocal few (who are mostly nut-jobs) on both sides pretty much ruin the discussion for everyone else and make the forums pointless.
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.13 12:00:00 - [125] Tippia, If the market is more or less stable (and I believe it is) and Eve is NOT dying (I don't think it is), and all types of players are having fun playing the game (having fun is what it's all about) where is this harm you speak of? Why fix something that's working fine and at the expense of driving away a stream of income to please a few?
innot Minmatar Gulliver Corp Prismatic Refraction	Posted - 2009.10.13 12:01:00 - [126] lol
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.13 12:11:00 - [127] Originally by: Caldor Mansi If you are not able to keep carebears apart from L4 and you in all seriousness put bots(Unholy rage), carebears and L4 in one bag, you are either complete ignorant or have a hate issue. No, you're just missing the point: the data from Unholy Rage shows exactly what rampant carebear:ism can do to the market — L4s in particular. If you want to know what impact these unlimited ISK and item sinks can have, there it is. If, after that, you want to claim that carebears don't affect others, then you have that massive data set to contend with and which you need to almost completely disprove if your point is to stand. What you think of the presentation of that data is utterly and completely irrelevant. Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII If the market is more or less stable (and I believe it is) and Eve is NOT dying (I don't think it is), and all types of players are having fun playing the game (having fun is what it's all about) where is this harm you speak of? The harm is in the unsustainability of having this kind of imbalance between play styles. The market may be somewhat stable now (especially after a ton of market-wreckers were thrown out), but if the optimal choice of game style is one that spews ISK and items all over the place, then new players coming into the game — and old ones, for that matter — will gravitate towards that play style, which means that the stability isn't likely to last… (Yes, I know, slippery slope fallacy and all that — call it a worry, instead, if you like). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.10.13 12:50:00 - [128] Originally by: Tippia The problem is that these carebears are pumping huge amounts of ISK into the system and not taking any out; they are pumping not-quite-as-huge amounts of items in there as well, and not taking any out. If the two were balanced, we'd at least have no inflation, but that's not the case and we do. Originally by: Tippia No, you're just missing the point: the data from Unholy Rage shows exactly what rampant carebear:ism can do to the market ù L4s in particular. If you want to know what impact these unlimited ISK and item sinks can have, there it is. Seriously...do you mind to explain why EVE even though with all the bots and rampant carebears is experiencing deflation? Inflation is pretty natural effect and it can be as positive as negative. You sir, have absolutely no clue what you talk about. You just pick one group of people you keep picking on and blame them for w/e flies your boat. You are not only ignorant with hate issue, you're stupid too.
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.13 12:58:00 - [129] Originally by: Tippia The harm is in the unsustainability of having this kind of imbalance between play styles. The market may be somewhat stable now (especially after a ton of market-wreckers were thrown out), but if the optimal choice of game style is one that spews ISK and items all over the place, then new players coming into the game ù and old ones, for that matter ù will gravitate towards that play style, which means that the stability isn't likely to lastà (Yes, I know, slippery slope fallacy and all that ù call it a worry, instead, if you like). Over 6 years and the game is still growing and pretty stable. The economy is still strong and growing. New players still coming in. The ones that end up leaving (and posting about it in the forums) usually do so because of the "griefing" among other reasons, but not because the market is/will be collapsing.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:43:00 - [130] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Seriously...do you mind to explain why EVE even though with all the bots and rampant carebears is experiencing deflation? It's not. See the economy presentation. The deflation period we had earlier could quite easily be tied to a certain industry-scale item duplication effort… Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII Over 6 years and the game is still growing and pretty stable. The economy is still strong and growing. New players still coming in. The ones that end up leaving (and posting about it in the forums) usually do so because of the "griefing" among other reasons, but not because the market is/will be collapsing. Well, you're more optimistic in that regard than I am. And at any rate, that just shows how unnecessary carebears are ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Aarin Wrath Caldari Dominion Strategic	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:52:00 - [131] Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 13/10/2009 14:55:30 Originally by: Bellum Eternus More ISK/character = inflation. Sorry to cherry pick, but Bellum is completely Wrong here. Inflation means that a Dominix in 2009 costs more than a Dominix did in 2005. (It takes more money to get the same thing) BUT What really happened is that a Dominix in 2009 (43 Million) costs LESS than a Dominix did in 2005 (63 million). (it now takes less money to get the same thing) Bellum, what you are talking about is called Increase in Monetary Supply and not inflation. Take some economics classes. Sorry, but that over used, and just plain wrong, Pirate excuse for Carebear's increase in the "Death of Eve Threat Level" is a pet peeve of mine. Get it right Pirates ... shesh.
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:02:00 - [132] Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 13/10/2009 15:02:10 Originally by: Tippia It's not. See the economy presentation. The deflation period we had earlier could quite easily be tied to a certain industry-scale item duplication effortà Oh god...you're true gem. If you were even slightly involved in EVE industry or at least made some research and educate yourself, you would find out that mineral prices are steadily dropping over last years. Don't let me start why... So what inflation you talk about when everyhing is actualy cheaper?
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:19:00 - [133] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII Over 6 years and the game is still growing and pretty stable. The economy is still strong and growing. New players still coming in. The ones that end up leaving (and posting about it in the forums) usually do so because of the "griefing" among other reasons, but not because the market is/will be collapsing. Well, you're more optimistic in that regard than I am. And at any rate, that just shows how unnecessary carebears are Ok, first you argue that carebears are ruining the game and economy by somehow stating the sky is falling or it will be falling (failed to prove that). And now you switch to a "well, carebears are just unnecessary". Is that why you feel they need to be culled? Because they're unnecessary?
Jensen Blayloc Minmatar Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:22:00 - [134] Edited by: Jensen Blayloc on 13/10/2009 15:23:49 It is only slightly annoying that people coughVareskcough :p whine about people whining about ninja salvaging.. All I want is for it to flag you for PvP like can stealing. The "real" PvPers should be in favor of this, but for some reason they are not. I can't help it, I like to run the occasional mission. I would also like the chance to defend my own stuff. I don't see what is wrong with that.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.13 15:54:00 - [135] Originally by: Caldor Mansi So what inflation you talk about when everyhing is actualy cheaper? See the economy presentation. Originally by: MatrixSkye MkII Ok, first you argue that carebears are ruining the game and economy by somehow stating the sky is falling or it will be falling (failed to prove that). No. I'm arguing that carebears don't understand the consequences of their wishes: that if their wishes came true, they would no longer have a game to play. Quote: And now you switch to a "well, carebears are just unnecessary". Not so much switch, as such, no. It's a reiteration of previous counter-arguments to the standard "but you need us!" nonsense that carebears cry in panic whenever something is suggested that threatens their existence. Quote: Is that why you feel they need to be culled? Because they're unnecessary? No. It's because their choice of direction for the game is to drive it as fast as possible, head-first into a brick wall. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:11:00 - [136] Originally by: Jensen Blayloc Edited by: Jensen Blayloc on 13/10/2009 15:23:49 It is only slightly annoying that people coughVareskcough :p whine about people whining about ninja salvaging.. All I want is for it to flag you for PvP like can stealing. The "real" PvPers should be in favor of this, but for some reason they are not. I can't help it, I like to run the occasional mission. I would also like the chance to defend my own stuff. I don't see what is wrong with that. Because - for the millionth time - *It's NOT* YOUR STUFF.** And before you ask "who says so?", CCP say so. Repeatedly.
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:20:00 - [137] Originally by: Tippia See the economy presentation. I did but unlike you, I can understand what is being said there and also have some of general awereness how EVE works and evolve over time. You are as exactly the person I was talking about when replying to OP in my first post here, ignorants on both sides make this 'war' going forver. And that exactly is you - an ignorant with propaganda.
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:27:00 - [138] Don't you folks EVER get sick of wrangling about this?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:29:00 - [139] Originally by: Caldor Mansi I did …and yet you claim as fact things that aren't true. So why should I believe your claims about what you do and do not understand? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
MaxxOmega Caldari Wrong Indeed	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:31:00 - [140] Edited by: MaxxOmega on 13/10/2009 16:31:19 But sometimes when I am flying my ship, I get shot at and blown up. OMG CCP pls fix
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.10.13 16:39:00 - [141] Originally by: Tippia ]àand yet you claim as fact things that aren't true. So why should I believe your claims about what you do and do not understand? You don't have to believe me but that does change anything about you being stupid ignorant.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:10:00 - [142] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer "Virtually every industrialized nation has currency that is worth significantly less than 100 years ago. In 1900, $1 would buy you a nice lunch. In 1971, it was $5. Society didn't collapse. What happens is folks re-define what "a lot of money" means." Can you show me where this is beneficial to society? Can you show me where this is harmful to society? You're the one with the hypothosis. Economics is (supposedly) a science. Let's see your data and methodology. In case you missed my point, if wages and interest rates all move up to keep up with inflation, then inflation itself isn't a problem. If you want a 5% return on your loan, and inflation is expected to be 2%, you charge 7% interest. If you expect inflation to be 30%, you charge 35% interest (example simplified for brevity). And as long as wages increase at roughly the same rate as inflation, then you're just using larger numbers to equal the same amount of purchasing power.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:19:00 - [143] Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: XXSketchxx ideas... Best way to solve problem is to allow players do do by them selves. Just make only possible to run level 4 missions for players on NON nPC corps. Simple. If too many carebears isolated from everything esle.., let the other players balance it... Also to avoid the "lets disband when wardec" tactic. Make that a corp that disbands during a wardec create a 100M fee to its CEO. MAke same fee apply if a corp under wardec does not undock at least X ships during aweek (based on size of corp). Translation: The beatings will continue until you bastards play the game the way I want you to.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:26:00 - [144] Originally by: Tippia Compare this to ship combat, where you combine one sink (items) with one faucet (ISK) into what's essentially a value conversion mechanism. In the best of world, the two are balanced at a 1:1 conversion and the overall value remains the same because at some other point in the chain we have an equally balanced items-for-ISK conversion. PvP isn't an ISK sink. ISK is not destroyed by PvP. It just changes hands between the person who lost his ship and another player. The same amount of ISK remains in the game before and after the combat. Same with mining, same with loot, same with salvage, same with moon goo. None of them create or destroy ISK. If we had to buy new ships from NPCs, then PvP would be an ISK sink. PvP is a mineral/item sink, because minerals/items are destroyed. But the miners who can now sell some more trit are not creating new ISK, and carebears selling named loot are not creating new ISK.
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:27:00 - [145] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Caldor Mansi I did àand yet you claim as fact things that aren't true. So why should I believe your claims about what you do and do not understand? What isn't true? That there is a steady deflation and mineral prices are dropping over years? Get your facts right, first. You don't have to believe me but that won't make you less ignorant.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:44:00 - [146] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Zedic Looky, you could do that because of your past experiences. àand the thing is that the mission runners could do that too if they were exposed to it more often and chose to learn from their experience rather than expect the game to protect them. That's really the dividing factor here: 'Sploded and tries to improve fits and tactics → good'un. He'll go far. 'Sploded and ~~expects~~ demands(!) protection (or he quits and takes his eleventy alts with him) → carebear. I think that's where you'll find the root of all the carebear hating: their absolute refusal to understand the game, to learn, to adapt, to change in any way and their insistence that the game changes to suit them. (Yes, PvPers complain as well when you take their toys away from them, but they also learn and adapt.) Granted, there are other complaints that can be levied against them, such as screwing over the economy, and their ignorance about the interconnected nature of the game, which makes them say silly things, but those are relatively minor things compared to the "serve me!" attitude. Originally by: Zedic A. The person behind the toon really is "scared" because they have no experience at player vs player games. I was once like that, having played on blue servers or in totally PVE games my entire MMO career prior to early beta for Eve. B. The person simply does not have the RL time budgeted to do anything other than log in, run some level 4s and then log out, pet the dog, hump the wife (or husband) put the cat out, and the kids to bed or work on a thesis, or grade papers or whatever. C. The person feels "restricted" for whatever reason and can't find a path to [meaningful] pvp encounters. Eve is so big and so complex that it's easy to feel overwhelmed at it's seemingly vast complexity. Maybe a person in this group saw the vids on Youtube, was some type of gamer prior to Eve, got the game - enjoys running missions because it's what's most "game like" to them based on their previous experience - knows there is pvp out there but could feel that they started the game too late, couldn't possibly catch up to "l33t players" or what have you. All excellent explanations, and they really highlight the tragedy of it all: A and C are simply a matter of lack of knowledge or knowledge based on myth, hearsay and misinformation. It's a matter of education. It's a matter of daring to say "to hell with this, let's blow someone up and see what happens!" and then going out and learning how the game works ù something the carebear doesn't want to do, because the game should cater to him, automagically. Type B is a special case and is of such a small impact that hardly even matters. Even so, given the right corp he could have the same casual attitude and go out and blow stuff up instead. That, or as someone once suggested, use said wife/husband to create some "mining drones" that bring in the cash while he's occupied elsewhereà Originally by: Caldor Mansi PVP fits are not viable for missions. It is only the Domi and drones that allows you to be efficient at defending yourself. Every other turret boat will be just eaten effortlessly. Then maybe there's a lesson in there to learn: maybe those are the wrong tools for the job. Maybe you shouldn't use them for thatà Originally by: Ariane VoxDei PVP fit or not, as you well know a lone BS is not ever going to stand up to a small gang, even less so when it already has NPC aggro. Again, maybe there's a lesson in there: maybe the chosen tactic to do the mission isn't a good one. Maybe you should choose anotherà Well put Tippia. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
MatrixSkye MkII Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:48:00 - [147] Originally by: Tippia No. I'm arguing that carebears don't understand the consequences of their wishes: that if their wishes came true, they would no longer have a game to play. And I'm arguing that the game as it stands at the moment, is growing, not dying. The economy is substantially healthy, not dying. And since you openly demand reform (mostly in the form of carebear nerfing) and you constantly express concenrn of the current state of the game I'd like to know why this overwhelming concern. Quote: Not so much switch, as such, no. It's a reiteration of previous counter-arguments to the standard "but you need us!" nonsense that carebears cry in panic whenever something is suggested that threatens their existence. But that's just the other extreme of the issue. I'm not saying carebears are THE most important playerbase. What I am saying they are AS important as any group. Would you agree? Or are you of the mindset they just aren't good, period? Quote: It's because their choice of direction for the game is to drive it as fast as possible, head-first into a brick wall. I'm a carebear. 'Guess I've been driving as fast as possible, but haven't hit a brick wall yet. So what is this brick wall you speak of?
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:48:00 - [148] Originally by: Ukucia PvP isn't an ISK sink. ISK is not destroyed by PvP. It just changes hands between the person who lost his ship and another player. The same amount of ISK remains in the game before and after the combat. Same with mining, same with loot, same with salvage, same with moon goo. None of them create or destroy ISK. If we had to buy new ships from NPCs, then PvP would be an ISK sink. PvP is a mineral/item sink, because minerals/items are destroyed. But the miners who can now sell some more trit are not creating new ISK, and carebears selling named loot are not creating new ISK. In a matter of fact, PVP creates ISK because of insurance :)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:51:00 - [149] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 13/10/2009 14:55:30 Originally by: Bellum Eternus More ISK/character = inflation. Sorry to cherry pick, but Bellum is completely Wrong here. Inflation means that a Dominix in 2009 costs more than a Dominix did in 2005. (It takes more money to get the same thing) BUT What really happened is that a Dominix in 2009 (43 Million) costs LESS than a Dominix did in 2005 (63 million). (it now takes less money to get the same thing) Bellum, what you are talking about is called Increase in Monetary Supply and not inflation. Take some economics classes. Sorry, but that over used, and just plain wrong, Pirate excuse for Carebear's increase in the "Death of Eve Threat Level" is a pet peeve of mine. Get it right Pirates ... shesh. You simply picked the wrong item. Sheesh. You're completely Wrong here. If you READ what I posted, I referred to the pricing of high-end faction items like deadspace shield boosters and shield boost amps etc. The Dominix costs less not because of lack of inflation but because we have so many more farmers and botters and more powerful/efficient industry efforts. Raw materials are easier/cheaper to come by (Drone regions with it's super cheat high end minerals) and everyone has maxed skills/researched BPOs. That's why a Domi is less expensive now. If you look at best-in-game Officer/Deadspace items, you'll find that those cost more than they ever have, simply because the people buying them have TONS of ISK to spare, simply because they never have to replace items. Sorry to cherry pick <not really>, but you need to pay attention <fail> to the entire <fail> statement <fail>. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.10.13 17:52:00 - [150] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hamshoe Again, if you are displeased with the results of the choices you have made in the game, choose again. If there is only one useful choice, there is no choice. That's the whole problem. Only one choice that's "useful", to whom and for what? It's trivially obvious that there are multiple paths to take in this game and that their utility is completely subjective. If you are displeased with results of your choice that's your problem. What you're asking for is a stacked outcome to favor your choice instead of changing your behavior to get the outcome you desire. Just like the "carebears" asking for greater security.

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