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DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.14 16:28:00 - [1] you have 3 size of drones small med and heavy . now follow my toughs , heavy damp drones will damp more then a ligth one but jamming someone is jamming someone theres no little or big jamm , just more chances so explain to me why we have only heavy web drones when we could clearly have small web drones that does close to no speed penality but would be good in large number as there are fast . and explain to me why a vaga being neuted webed and scrambled and even jammed should shoot his 5 small ecm drones on a domi and manage to jam him and run . my point is : only heavy size ecm drone , since a stabber with 1 small ecm should never have a sligth chance what so ever to jamm anything and all other ew drones with different size what you do you think?
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.14 16:31:00 - [2] You are generally asking why the big stuff does not win by default. Well, that's eve...
Neuronai	Posted - 2009.10.14 16:34:00 - [3] ECM drones do seem a little overpowered in comparison to the other EWAR drones...I've been jammed multiple times in a row by 5 light ECM drones and it's ****ing annoying. Neut drones I barely even notice.
Edward Visari	Posted - 2009.10.14 16:34:00 - [4] Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr You are generally asking why the big stuff does not win by default. Well, that's eve... /thread
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.10.14 16:39:00 - [5] Edited by: Grimpak on 14/10/2009 16:39:32 Originally by: Neuronai ECM drones do seem a little overpowered in comparison to the other EWAR drones...I've been jammed multiple times in a row by 5 light ECM drones and it's ***ing annoying. Neut drones I barely even notice. I see it from another angle: ECM drones do their work, it's the other drones that simply suck that bad* also small and med web drones would bring a whole new world of pain to certain ships hint hint: taranis + 2 small web drones --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.10.14 17:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Neuronai ECM drones do seem a little overpowered in comparison to the other EWAR drones. ECM drones do their work, it's the other drones that simply suck that bad I agree with this completely. The ECM drones aren't all that great - they're good enough that a flight of mediums might get you out of a bad situation. A flight of lights have a very slim chance of working. I would like to see the other EWar drones boosted. They're very pitiful in their current form. A full flight of mediums should at least be as good as a standard T1 module of the same type. I would also like to see a Gallente drone ship that gets bonuses to EWar drones. That could be a lot of fun.
NoGo Rose	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:06:00 - [7] I think ECM drones are fine. I use them alot and have pretty good luck jamming a comparable size target. (ie small vs frig, med vs cruiser etc...). Anything more and I think it would be overpowered. Besides the point of the ECM drones is not to permajam but to be enough of a problem so you can go to work with your primary goods (blasters, neuts, gtfo, etc...)
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr You are generally asking why the big stuff does not win by default. Well, that's eve... no . you clearly dont get the point how hard is it to tackle a vaga ? then check what can actualy tackle it ? then imagine that vaga scooping out 5 small ecm drone and how easy he can jamm the tackler and run . ecm drone should be heavy size only , as a ship with 5m3 drone bay should not be able to jam someone , even if you say the chances are slim to none , when it jams it jams and he runs . so why is it that all warfare have to be used in large quantity to be effective , yet one small ecm drone and some luck is all you need to do the job . if the vaga wants to jam he will have 1 ecm heavy drone , and it will get popped , thats what should happen . im not mad because im a battleship w h ore , i use those drones as much as my target does . does not prevent me to find they are wrong . you know how long it takes to kill a passive drake ? even with slim to none chances of jam , his 5 ecm will eventualy get a jam and he will bail . having heavy size ecm drone only , will not prevent those ppl from using them . but will make it possible for the target to shoot it down unlike small ecm (unless you have smartbombs , sorry i dont fit any ) for the same reason i find web drones should be available in small and medium size as there speed could be a bonus and a small web drone would not drop your speed to 0 but just slightly slow you down
Djerin Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 14/10/2009 16:39:32 Originally by: Neuronai ECM drones do seem a little overpowered in comparison to the other EWAR drones...I've been jammed multiple times in a row by 5 light ECM drones and it's ***ing annoying. Neut drones I barely even notice. I see it from another angle: ECM drones do their work, it's the other drones that simply suck that bad* also small and med web drones would bring a whole new world of pain to certain ships hint hint: taranis + 2 small web drones This pretty much. ECM drones are fine. The reason they are used more frequently is because the other e-war stuff sucks or doesn't even exist. I would take 5 medium webbifying drones every time over 5 medium ECM drones. But there are none, so... ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:34:00 - [10] Originally by: NoGo Rose Besides the point of the ECM drones is not to permajam but to be enough of a problem so you can go to work with your primary goods (blasters, neuts, gtfo, etc...) no the goal of ecm drones is to jam target thats scrambling ya and warp out leaving them behing with a frustrated pilot that tough you were now his loot . i find ecm in general to be good the kitsun and other ecm ships work fine . i just find it stupid that it now replaced stabs . if you ask a vaga pilot to pick between saving his 200m hac and some extra dps from 5 warriors . what will he choose?
Djerin Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:54:00 - [11] The point of ECM drones is not simply to get out. They are a tool to give you more fighting capabilities. Especially on ships with few med slots this is a nice addition. ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.10.14 19:31:00 - [12] Originally by: DJV's Lawyer i find ecm in general to be good the kitsun and other ecm ships work fine . i just find it stupid that it now replaced stabs . if you ask a vaga pilot to pick between saving his 200m hac and some extra dps from 5 warriors . what will he choose? ECM is the strongest ew in the game. It is a stupid game mechanic imo. Anyway, what are you saying? You think ecm boats are fine, but ecm drones not? So only Caldari should have the totally disabling button? Noone else should have any ecm option. But everyone could still have a damp, neut, and paint option to compete with the damp, neut, and painting ships? ECM drones are hardly like the warp stabs of old. Before the infinite point and nano nerf, and nerf to the wcs themselves wcs were pretty much a get away free card if the dual was not going your way. Medium ECM drones on the other hand have just about the right strength to give you an intermitent jam. Which may save your ship, or not.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.14 19:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Neuronai ECM drones do seem a little overpowered in comparison to the other EWAR drones...I've been jammed multiple times in a row by 5 light ECM drones and it's ****ing annoying. Neut drones I barely even notice. 5x light drones have approximately a: 1 - (1 - 1/24)^5 = 19% chance per cycle to jam a battleship 1 - (1 - 1/20)^5 = 22% chance per cycle to jam a battlecruiser 1 - (1 - 1/16)^5 = 27% chance per cycle to jam a cruiser 1 - (1 - 1/12)^5 = 35% chance per cycle to jam a frigate Medium drones are slightly better. Heavy drones are equivalent to an un-bonused ECM module, each, but are rather slow moving. I don't think they are overpowered. One has to sacrifice DPS to use them, and can only use them against a single target.
Niclas Solo Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.14 19:46:00 - [14] ECM is stupid they should make it only effect your turrets and not make you lose the lock. Or make damp and TD ruin range on web, scram, missils, neuts other EW and so on, then it would be fair.
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:09:00 - [15] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Originally by: Neuronai ECM drones do seem a little overpowered in comparison to the other EWAR drones...I've been jammed multiple times in a row by 5 light ECM drones and it's ****ing annoying. Neut drones I barely even notice. 5x light drones have approximately a: 1 - (1 - 1/24)^5 = 19% chance per cycle to jam a battleship 1 - (1 - 1/20)^5 = 22% chance per cycle to jam a battlecruiser 1 - (1 - 1/16)^5 = 27% chance per cycle to jam a cruiser 1 - (1 - 1/12)^5 = 35% chance per cycle to jam a frigate Medium drones are slightly better. Heavy drones are equivalent to an un-bonused ECM module, each, but are rather slow moving. I don't think they are overpowered. One has to sacrifice DPS to use them, and can only use them against a single target. so you don't think 20% chance of jam on a battleship is overpowered . when you only need 1 cycle to save yourself from sure death . its not like damp drones that need many of , for bonus to stack and become even close to good what i am saying is by allowing only heavy size ecm drone , it would make the tagrets job easier to even consider switching guns on his ecm drones and would make ppl think twice befor fiting a 25m3 drone bay with 1 ecm drone . atm ccp is doing to web drone what they should do to ecm drones . ecm is a strong ew and no matter how low are the chances for a jam , like i said you only need one lucky jam to ruin the figth for exemple npc drake gets tackled by a sacrilege that has backup waiting next door and manage to get a jam and run before back has time to come . those situations should not be happening all the time , yet they are . thats why i call them the new stabs
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:15:00 - [16] Imo especially med ECM drones need a nerf. Not too much, they need to stay usable, but right now they just got too much chance to jam the opponent. Or as alternative, what i kinda like, is changing them into ecm burst kind of thing, without the burst part. So it breaks your lock, but it doesnt keep it broken for 20 seconds, you can immediatly retarget again. Still you have targeting time, but in principle it is then a gtfo type of drone. While right now it is not only gtfo, but also just the best choise in general combat usually for ships with 50 m^3 drone bay. If you jsut look at cruisers/BCs they are jammed half of the time, so they allready probably lose to that, and even if they dont there is good chance the enemy can just warp out.
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:23:00 - [17] sacrifice dps again , ask the vaga how he miss his dps from 5x warriors II when he just saved his ship that was nailed down jammed and neuted . id really dont see why id choose the crappy dps that wont change the fight vs 18% jam on a ship 4 time my size (thats the worst scenario) . When facing smaller things that are more likely to cause you trouble by tackling you ,your odds get even better ecm is just not a warfare that should be available to any ship that has a drone bay , no matter how small it is . i know it not that much of a problem when going into large scale figthts . but who cares about those anyway
Xcen Imperial Coalition	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:48:00 - [18] Edited by: Xcen on 14/10/2009 20:49:23 Originally by: DJV's Lawyer sacrifice dps again , ask the vaga how he miss his dps from 5x warriors II when he just saved his ship that was nailed down jammed and neuted . id really dont see why id choose the crappy dps that wont change the fight vs 18% jam on a ship 4 time my size (thats the worst scenario) . When facing smaller things that are more likely to cause you trouble by tackling you ,your odds get even better ecm is just not a warfare that should be available to any ship that has a drone bay , no matter how small it is . i know it not that much of a problem when going into large scale figthts . but who cares about those anyway Wouldnt a large smartbomb solve your emc drone problems? If you tackled him via heavy neut+dumb vagabond pilot+scram then you would prolly rip him to shreds pretty fast specifically if his emc drones missed the 20% chance to jam you.. In any case you could also fit for stronger str. vs jamming but really it sounds like that vagabond pilot just got lucky. Edit- spelling,etc...
Ap0ll0n Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:01:00 - [19] I always carry 5 medium ECM drones in my harbinger when im roaming on my own. They pretty much enables you to fight 2 enemies at once.
Derek Shmawesome We Know Derek	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:07:00 - [20] Originally by: DJV's Lawyer ask the vaga how he miss his dps from 5x warriors II when he just saved his ship that was nailed down jammed and neuted . Aww, a lone Vaga with a really stupid pilot managed to escape you because you fail at tackling and ganking? You know, other pilots would fit ECCM instead of running to the forums crying about ECM. It couldn't be easier even if it was...
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:11:00 - [21] tl;dr, OP missed a Vaga kill in a dominix and came to the forums BAWWWWWWWing about how it should be nerfed. Go away, OP. Nobody likes you.
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.15 13:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Terianna Eri tl;dr, OP missed a Vaga kill in a dominix and came to the forums BAWWWWWWWing about how it should be nerfed. Go away, OP. Nobody likes you. if you read above wich you didnt becaue your 13 years old and can't focus on something for more then 2 minutes . these were exemples i am giving of how 5m3 drone bay can be used like a stab . i am talking about the fact that ecm should be heavy drone size only and no matter how slim is a chance of jam , it is still way to strong compared to other ew . but you clearly did not get that and this is why i post with an alt . because of tards like you now go talk about tear buckets and other cool words for the 2010 forum geek convention
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.15 13:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Derek Shmawesome Originally by: DJV's Lawyer ask the vaga how he miss his dps from 5x warriors II when he just saved his ship that was nailed down jammed and neuted . Aww, a lone Vaga with a really stupid pilot managed to escape you because you fail at tackling and ganking? You know, other pilots would fit ECCM instead of running to the forums crying about ECM. It couldn't be easier even if it was... is this a how to counter ecm thread? oh no it is not you don't get the point . what drone would you put in a 5m3 stabber drone bay ? i put a small ecm drone . now imagine a small damp drone or td ? you see where i am getting at . one needs to be stacked in order to be good . the other need a little luck. so of course there better . now if you put heavy ecm drone only and ppl still want to use them , you dont need to screw up your fitting with smartbombs and eccm . you can target the drones and pop them
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.15 16:18:00 - [24] Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 15/10/2009 16:25:51 Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 15/10/2009 16:24:25 Dear OP, please do the following: 1. go to Market>search> ECCM. 2. buy respective ECCM module of your choice. 3. fit ECCM module to appropriate ship 4. profit. 5 small ECM drones are 25 m2. Ships that have the space to spare in the dronebay for a full flight are drone boat so they are sacrificing a huge part of their dps to deploy them. Ships that apply dps thru weapons in high slots have no space to carry extra flights of drones in their dronebay and therefore have to make a choice from the hangar on. So when they undock with 5 small ECM, they decided to trade dps for E-war. As with all situations in EVE, strategic thinking wins. If you find that you need to counter ECM, fit ECCM. To come to the forums and cry when there is a perfect counter in game is pathetic. 5 small ECM drone= 19% chance to jam. That's 1 out of 5 cycles for the equivalent unbonused module. With a mean of 80 sec between jam cycles (=1min 20 sec), if you can't take a HAC down in that time with a BS, he deserves to run away. To drive home my point: Stop whining, ECM drones are just fine. ECM in it's entirety is just fine. I don't see everyone and their gran running in Falcons anymore, because ECM got nerfed into balance couple of patches back.
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.10.15 16:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Tagami Wasp Dear OP, please do the following: 1. go to Market>search> ECCM. 2. buy respective ECCM module of your choice. 3. fit ECCM module to appropriate ship 4. profit. 5 small ECM drones are 25 m2. Ships that have the space to spare in the dronebay for a full flight are drone boat so they are sacrificing a huge part of their dps to deploy them. Ships that apply dps thru weapons in high slots have no space to carry extra flights of drones in their dronebay and therefore have to make a choice from the hangar on. So when they undock with 5 small ECM, they decided to trade dps for E-war. As with all situations in EVE, strategic thinking wins. If you find that you need to counter ECM, fit ECCM. To come to the forums and cry when there is a perfect counter in game is pathetic. Todrive home my point: Stop whining, ECM drones are just fine. ECM in it's entirety is just fine. I don't see everyone and their gran running in Falcons anymore, because ECM got nerfed into balance couple of patches back. What a great argument you make. I guess everyone should just consider all their ships to have -1 mid for now on and fly around with ECCM everywhere they go in order to compensate for a broken/poorly implemented game mechanic. This isn't "strategic thinking", it's just stupid. ECM is a stupid, stupid game mechanic. The fact that Falcons were balanced a bit doesn't suddenly change this fact. To be more on topic, I don't know if I really want EW drones to get much of a boost. Right now most ships are forced to fit their ships specifically for EW if they want them to be effective that way or you need to bring a recon/EAS to play the role. If you make EW drones stronger then suddenly everyone flying a Domi will be able to fit for a normal combat role and then deploy a Curse/Rapier/Whatever EW out of its drone bay. That makes me feel funny in my tummy (actually it might be those tacos I ate earlier). ----- The Python Cartel - My Pirate Blog
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.15 16:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Spectre3353 What a great argument you make. I guess everyone should just consider all their ships to have -1 mid for now on and fly around with ECCM everywhere they go in order to compensate for a broken/poorly implemented game mechanic. This isn't "strategic thinking", it's just stupid. ECM is a stupid, stupid game mechanic. The fact that Falcons were balanced a bit doesn't suddenly change this fact. ...suddenly everyone flying a Domi will be able to fit for a normal combat role and then deploy a Curse/Rapier/Whatever EW out of its drone bay... ECM is not stupid at all, especially it's probabilistic nature. It is the most realistic e-war implemented. SD is actually the second most realistic one. They are being used as we speak today on Earth in various theaters of operations. Apart from that, if being jammed screws your battle plan, then yes you should fit ECCM. Competent RRBS pilots make sure to do so. If you are fitting a roaming HAC/Recon, then you have to judge what are your chances to meet enemy ECM and try to compensate. If you want to fit a solopwnmoblie that takes on all comers and there is no way to be countered, WOW--> I'll try to make this understandable. If you are flying that Domi and decide to drop a Falcon equivalent on your target, what will then your dps be? 150 dps out of a BS is kind of pathetic you know.
Leni	Posted - 2009.10.15 16:38:00 - [27] "Boohoo, I dont want to fit ECCM, so I get jammed occasionally. Please CCP, remove ECM so that I don't need to adapt! " Seriously, how stupid is that?
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.15 18:44:00 - [28] Edited by: DJV''s Lawyer on 15/10/2009 18:44:44 Originally by: Leni "Boohoo, I dont want to fit ECCM, so I get jammed occasionally. Please CCP, remove ECM so that I don't need to adapt! " Seriously, how stupid is that? yet an other tard thats not reading the thread , seriously how stupid are you? nobody here is crying , and you wont get your god dammit bucket of tears i am using those drones as we speak to run like a little girl each time things go wrong i even killed a huginn that had me web because i got a jam with my ecm drones , he then was the one being tackled . if you dont see why 18% chance of jam on a bs is wrong , then forget it , this thread is not for you . i am saying that ecm should not be used on any ship with a drone bay . omen with 3 ecm drones , that kind of things . ecm drones need to be heavy size only like web drones are at the moment . easier to pop and prevent small drone bay from using them (they can still fit 1 heavy ecm drone if they like it that much) . and the guy talking about fitting a ship for the situation with eccm , when you roam your sure to cross ecm , so in your line of thinking all ships should fit one . i know rr bs need there locks to rep themself and yes they do need eccm since there fitting allows it and a falcon could break there chain of repping . logistic ships also . but that poor huginn , should have fitted eccm ?
Beltantis Torrence NoD Imperium	Posted - 2009.10.15 18:47:00 - [29] Originally by: Neuronai ECM drones do seem a little overpowered in comparison to the other EWAR drones...I've been jammed multiple times in a row by 5 light ECM drones and it's ****ing annoying. Neut drones I barely even notice. That's like saying throwing a brick at someone is more overpowered than throwing a sponge. Fact is the other ewar drones are worthless, which is why no one fits them. They should be a lot better than they are.
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2009.10.15 19:24:00 - [30] its ecm drones that needs a nerf make small and medium web drones and leave ecm at heavy size only , and i will be a happy man

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