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Hi-sec belt rats from 2003 - time to boost.

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Nalena Arlath	Posted - 2009.10.18 02:51:00 - [1] Way back, in 2003 or thereabouts, belt rats in hi-sec could be a scarey thing since all we had was our puny Ibis and Impairors, armed only with a small peashooter. Mining was serious buisness, especially in 0.5 where belt rats were dangerous and many. However, this game has come quite a long way since then, and these days everyone has a tier 3 or 4 combat-ready frigate within days, in fact, within the first day. ISK comes easy to those who put in some effort, and even to those who don't but rather just beg over rookie corp channel. My point... hi-sec belt rats are 100% inefficient, useless and hands down a waste of programming at this point. CCP has been cutting down on various things to reduce stress on servers, including making my blasted dscan have a recalibration timer which is annoying to no end. It's time to face it, either boost the hi-sec belt rats, or remove them altogether. I was watching two of them in 0.7, shooting an 2 week old pilot who was sitting afk in an Arbitrator. The rats couldn't even break the base passive regen on the shields for an armor tanked low-tier cruiser. Seriously, they are so useless that people don't even bother popping them while mining. Also, the bounties are so redicilously low in comparison to how fast you can make isk these days, that having them around as an excuse for newbies to make isk doesn't even categorize as a poor excuse. I say they either get boosted, to do more DPS and thus indirectly preventing AFK mining in the systems. People running missions need to pay attention or get popped (unless you got good skills of course), so why shouldn't those mining also need to pay attention? And no, moving ore from ship to can to hauler doesn't count. Boost the belt rats enough that they at least pose a credible threat. It might even give some new pilots an option to make some isk by defending miners. Sure, sounds silly, but quite alot of pilots I talked to in the newbie systems around empire would actually like the patrolling thing, especially for looking after friends/corp mates while they mine. Right now that's not worthwhile, cause the rats are no threat anyways. The option is to fly escort for their mates in low-sec, but seriously, we all know how redicilous that is. In low-sec you aren't protecting them against rats, but players. And players don't engage unless they can blob you or they have superiour ships, which leaves you with warping out as the only real option anyways. But if you think this sounds silly, and the whole newbies flying escort in hi-sec, or miners needing to equip at least a minimal form of defense, wether it's drones or fitting a gun or two on their cruiser, then hey.... I already listed option #2... ... remove the rats entirely, since they are USELESS! They are so useless they aren't even annoying. Current state of the hi-sec belt rats just reek of neglect in a game where everything has been advanced and changed, except the scarey rats from 2003 which are now simply a waste of programming. Feel free to comment, flame, agree, suggest or ignore!
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.10.18 02:55:00 - [2] I agree, triple the DPS that all highsec rats do. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:06:00 - [3] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I agree, triple the DPS that all highsec rats do. I disagree, the damage should be higher than that even. Belt rats in an 0.8 (which are pathetically weak) should be as tough as a cruiser in a lvl 2 mission. In an 0.7 they should be as tough as a cruiser in a level 3, in an 0.6 they should be as tough as a lvl 4 mission cruiser and in an 0.5 they should be as tough as a BC from a lvl 4. 0.4 and below already got their own um.. 'rats' you have to deal with so maybe make the belt rats harder, or not for them. hard to say. But yes, I think they need to be more of a challenge for say a retriever than 'pop 3 small t1 drones' rats gone, go back to sleep. ------------------------------------------------ The 5 minute posting timer is the direct result of people not using basic computer safety methods. Place the blame where it belongs.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I agree, triple the DPS that all highsec rats do. especially mission ones. and especially especially the highsec level 5 ones
Joe Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Nalena Arlath .....in 2003 or thereabouts...... Mining was serious buisness, especially in 0.5 where belt rats were dangerous and many. There was only frigates, and you litrially had to travel to the far ends of 0.0 to find Cruisers with a bounty of 20k. The only other way to find cruisers in hi sec was to locate the static "hidden plexs" that were at some planets and moons. Anyway, that being said I agree with you, NPC spawns in hi sec need a revamp, but i wouldnt undermine the new recent changes to low sec (with the introduction of Battleships), If anything the hi sec belts should have multiple cruiser spawns and some frig support. BTW, do i detect a stealth mining nurf request by op?
Sys Root	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 18/10/2009 03:06:30 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I agree, triple the DPS that all highsec rats do. I disagree, the damage should be higher than that even. Belt rats in an 0.8 (which are pathetically weak) should be as tough as a cruiser in a lvl 2 mission. In an 0.7 they should be as tough as a cruiser in a level 3, in an 0.6 they should be as tough as a lvl 4 mission cruiser and in an 0.5 they should be as tough as a BC from a lvl 4. 0.4 and below already got their own um.. 'rats' you have to deal with so maybe make the belt rats harder, or not for them. hard to say. But yes, I think they need to be more of a challenge for say a retriever than 'pop 3 small t1 drones' rats gone, go back to sleep. This will make it impossible for new people to mine with retrievers, i agree that the rats may need a boost but keep in mind that noobs have to make a living too.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 18/10/2009 03:06:30 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I agree, triple the DPS that all highsec rats do. I disagree, the damage should be higher than that even. Belt rats in an 0.8 (which are pathetically weak) should be as tough as a cruiser in a lvl 2 mission. In an 0.7 they should be as tough as a cruiser in a level 3, in an 0.6 they should be as tough as a lvl 4 mission cruiser and in an 0.5 they should be as tough as a BC from a lvl 4. 0.4 and below already got their own um.. 'rats' you have to deal with so maybe make the belt rats harder, or not for them. hard to say. But yes, I think they need to be more of a challenge for say a retriever than 'pop 3 small t1 drones' rats gone, go back to sleep. A npc cruiser with the same name does the same amount of dps no matter what level mission it came from. Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points
Nalena Arlath	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:30:00 - [8] I'm mostly interested in seeing the belt rats actually pose a threat rather than be a cosmetic change of scenerey for whoever is there at the moment. Their bounties are worthless. Their loot is virtually worthless. Their damage is insufficient to break passive shield regens on anything but a Tier 2 frigate. And there's really two answers to wether I want a stealth nerf to hi-sec mining. First off, there's really only two choices a completely new player has in terms of making isk... and that's either run missions, or do mining. Yes, they can trade, but trading takes money, so you need to make some money, somehow, first. 1) I belive that hi-sec mining is simply too rewarding and too simple (especially since it can be done AFK) in comparison to running missions. You can sit AFK in an industrial or create simple macro's that does the mining job for you. There is no threat, except belt rats, which is no threat at all as we all know. 2) Secondly, I find the rats to be absolutely, 110% useless in their current form, shape and state. They should be revamped, and their damage boosted, so that they do indeed pose a threat to anyone in a belt, wether that is a miner or a ratter. The difficulty of the rats should of course scale as you go from .8 down to .7, .6 and .5. Either rework them, or remove them. Too hard for new players? Not really, since you can mine in 1.0 and 0.9 already today without there ever spawning any rats on you in the belt at all. However, if you want to mine anything other than veldspar, then you need to move down to where the rats spawn. The change done to low-sec rats was a really nice one. I don't rat much myself, but I happen to blast a few if noone else is in the system or I'm getting bored. I quite often see battleship spawns for 500k and up, even in .4 systems. Also there is the occassional faction spawns, and last one of those I popped dropped a nice implant that I pawned off for 25 million. So the risk vs reward is actually getting somewhere in terms of low-sec. But that's a whole other discussion. The hi-sec belt rats however need some form of change, or removal altogether. I really don't see the point of keeping them in-game when they can be "oneshotted" by a one week old pilot in a tier 2 frigate. If you think they should stay "as is", then please enlighten me; what is the point of them in the game today?
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:31:00 - [9] Originally by: Sys Root Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 18/10/2009 03:06:30 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I agree, triple the DPS that all highsec rats do. I disagree, the damage should be higher than that even. Belt rats in an 0.8 (which are pathetically weak) should be as tough as a cruiser in a lvl 2 mission. In an 0.7 they should be as tough as a cruiser in a level 3, in an 0.6 they should be as tough as a lvl 4 mission cruiser and in an 0.5 they should be as tough as a BC from a lvl 4. 0.4 and below already got their own um.. 'rats' you have to deal with so maybe make the belt rats harder, or not for them. hard to say. But yes, I think they need to be more of a challenge for say a retriever than 'pop 3 small t1 drones' rats gone, go back to sleep. This will make it impossible for new people to mine with retrievers, i agree that the rats may need a boost but keep in mind that noobs have to make a living too. Unless I am totally mistaken there are still 0.9 and 1.0 systems. They don't have NPC rats in them. ------------------------------------------------ The 5 minute posting timer is the direct result of people not using basic computer safety methods. Place the blame where it belongs.
Sys Root	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:40:00 - [10] True..forgot about those, havent been there in a while, carry on :]
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.10.18 03:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Sys Root This will make it impossible for new people to mine with retrievers, i agree that the rats may need a boost but keep in mind that noobs have to make a living too. solo mine
OwlManAtt Gallente Yasashii Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.10.18 04:00:00 - [12] Originally by: Nalena Arlath Their damage is insufficient to break passive shield regens on anything but a Tier 2 frigate. False. Belt rats in a .7 can destroy a retriever quite easily. I will concede that, if it has its drones out, they will pop the rats long before they do any serious damage. --- Owl
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2009.10.18 04:25:00 - [13] Originally by: OwlManAtt Originally by: Nalena Arlath Their damage is insufficient to break passive shield regens on anything but a Tier 2 frigate. False. Belt rats in a .7 can destroy a retriever quite easily. I will concede that, if it has its drones out, they will pop the rats long before they do any serious damage. Given he knows what he's doing yes. Noob fits and approaches are anything but logic at times. High sec is where they should have room to learn and not get royally stomped every time they undock. Perhaps a threat indicator on pilots too? Drawing more impressive NPC spawns the older they are. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Annaphera Minmatar United Freemerchants Society	Posted - 2009.10.18 04:47:00 - [14] I'd just have them scale more quickly from .8 to .5; I don't think we should see battleships in .5, but perhaps multiple cruisers. As a dyed-in-the-wool highsec miner, I still support some boost to the highsec belt rats 100%. I don't think it will take away the new players' room to learn, but rather give them more to test themselves against without leaving the PvP 'free' zone of highsec. In addition, it may have the effect of keeping the AFK miners out of the highest profit belts, leaving them for those of us who actually PAY ATTENTION to our miners! One thing I will say - to keep it from leaning too much on low sec ratting, don't change the spawn rate of faction rats. Keep them small, few and far between.
DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2009.10.18 04:52:00 - [15] Doing anything to improve things on that front is pointless, since the entire asteroid belt system could be removed entirely. The only pre-requisites for doing so were a proper exploration and probing system. We've had that since Revelations I, and both have had significant upgrades since then - especially in Apocrypha. An agent overhaul, plus removal of static content was originally part of Revelations II and frankly - I've been expecting something like it ever since. For CCP, the idea of even touching old systems is blase. They'd only do something like that if it could be paired with some amazing new 'feature' like system-wide belts, mining mini-games, or some tactical sonar system for replacing local as an intelligence tool. But stuff like that has been slipping in importance/priority for fresher ideas.
Dharh	Posted - 2009.10.18 05:08:00 - [16] Isn't the whole point of high sec that it's not dangerous? Sure perhaps they need to re-balance the rats a little higher (probably a scaling harder further down the sec) but just because some yokels sit their t2,t3 frigs in high sec mining (which is an utter waste) doesn't mean t1 frigs should have to suffer not being able to venture far from 1.0-0.8 sec.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.18 05:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Dharh Isn't the whole point of high sec that it's not dangerous? Yeah those blockades the Guristas keep setting up are real safe. High sec not being dangerous is more about players; minimizing ganking, piracy and other unwanted pvp. Quote: doesn't mean t1 frigs should have to suffer not being able to venture far from 1.0-0.8 sec. It doesn't mean they'll suffer. It will just means there will have to be a little more effort put into it. Hulks would still easily be able to tank. Retrievers and mining frigs/cruisers would have to either switch ships or have someone on hand to help but...MMO remember? Its called teamwork. _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.18 05:39:00 - [18] No its not, if you want bigger rats then go into low sec or 0.0 or use exploration. You're idea would cost more players, reduce the amount of available materials in game and increase the cost of ships and other goods across the board. In essence it would be a bad business move by CCP.
Dharh	Posted - 2009.10.18 06:14:00 - [19] Edited by: Dharh on 18/10/2009 06:16:27 Originally by: XXSketchxx Originally by: Dharh Isn't the whole point of high sec that it's not dangerous? Yeah those blockades the Guristas keep setting up are real safe. High sec not being dangerous is more about players; minimizing ganking, piracy and other unwanted pvp. Quote: doesn't mean t1 frigs should have to suffer not being able to venture far from 1.0-0.8 sec. It doesn't mean they'll suffer. It will just means there will have to be a little more effort put into it. Hulks would still easily be able to tank. Retrievers and mining frigs/cruisers would have to either switch ships or have someone on hand to help but...MMO remember? Its called teamwork. I always when I see "MMO remember? teamwork". Look I like teamwork, and in many ways that is what makes MMOs so awesome. But playing an MMO doesn't always mean teamwork, it can also mean, especially for miners and traders, real people to interact with (not teamwork wise, just interact wise). Just sayin'. As for the increase rats. To a certain point it makes perfect sense. Things have evolved and they _do_ need to be more aggressive. If there were some AI to it, the rats would clearly see that for a good long time now, their business has been going bad since they have not had much success for a while. Thus they _should_ be stronger, so they can have an impact again. Much the same way that there are still can flippers out there, because it can be a profitable business. So, I think there should be a beefing up of rats. However, if they get too uppity, CONCORD would see them causing too much trouble and start to crack down (not saying this is how it works in the game, just my line of thinking). So rats need to find the happy medium where enough of them make profit but don't cause too much noise to get hunted down.
The Riddik	Posted - 2009.10.18 06:22:00 - [20] ok kiddies, take a deep breath and understand these three words: HIGH SECURITY SPACE not many good rats there cause concord has dri ven off the good rats, and only the weaker types are still there, trying to prey on noobs. you want good payout rats? go to lowsec or 0.0 noob and ps: ive been round since 2003
Governor LePetomane Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions	Posted - 2009.10.18 06:38:00 - [21] Originally by: The Riddik ok kiddies, take a deep breath and understand these three words: HIGH SECURITY SPACE not many good rats there cause concord has dri ven off the good rats, and only the weaker types are still there, trying to prey on noobs. you want good payout rats? go to lowsec or 0.0 noob and ps: ive been round since 2003 This. Right now newbies can cash in like crazy ratting 0.5 COSMOS systems provided they 1. salvage and 2. know what to do with the mission objective loot. On top of that, as a frequent miner I bagged a faction rat on average once every 4-6 weeks for a payout of between 5 and 20 mil (bagged a low-grade implant off a dark blood frig, I was in OMG NEWBIE HEAVEN). High sec does not need a boost. Beyond that, there's nothing you can mine in 0.5 that's worth mining and can't be mined in higher sec except Kernite (Omber sucks a purple one), so 0.5 doesn't really need a nerf in the form of cruiser spawns that don't pay jack either. Net result? High sec rats are FineÖ.
Juan Valhdez	Posted - 2009.10.18 07:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Joe BTW, do i detect a stealth mining nurf request by op? more proof that Joe did business with the enemy ------------- I bring you fresh coffee from columbia with my donkey.
SK Rooster No Trademark	Posted - 2009.10.18 07:47:00 - [23] No.
Lew Lew	Posted - 2009.10.18 07:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Danton Marcellus Originally by: OwlManAtt Originally by: Nalena Arlath Their damage is insufficient to break passive shield regens on anything but a Tier 2 frigate. Perhaps a threat indicator on pilots too? Drawing more impressive NPC spawns the older they are. I like this idea but how about for WHs too. I have a friend that wasnt to run them with me adn I'm just worried tha the wont knwo when to warp out if he gets aggro
no pants	Posted - 2009.10.18 09:00:00 - [25] moved to Features and Ideas
Zaqar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.10.18 09:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I agree, triple the DPS that all rats do. fixed
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.18 09:32:00 - [27] Edited by: Tippia on 18/10/2009 09:34:02 I agree that they're useless. Solution: remove high-sec rats and reduce concord response times exponentially as sec status decreases. Result: less CPU load, more risk. Everyone wins. Oh, and fix the bounty system so that high-sec belt patrols can actually make you some decent money. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Ianirant	Posted - 2009.10.18 09:44:00 - [28] Just make belt rats use the same AI that sleepers has. That means CCP has to use a minimal amount of coding to adapt them to a system that is already in the game.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.18 10:08:00 - [29] Originally by: The Riddik ok kiddies, take a deep breath and understand these three words: HIGH SECURITY SPACE not many good rats there cause concord has dri ven off the good rats, and only the weaker types are still there, trying to prey on noobs. you want good payout rats? go to lowsec or 0.0 noob and ps: ive been round since 2003 The OP seems to be asking for more dangerous NPCs, not more profitable ones. I tend to agree. アニメ漫画です
sg3s Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.18 10:08:00 - [30] Right... hi-sec belt rats, funny story, I remember answering a question about them from a friend whom I help getting arround in eve with 'ignore them, they're overview trash'.

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