|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.19 06:07:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 19/10/2009 06:10:51
Originally by: Bunyip Yes, some candidates get elected that IMHO do not deserve to be elected. Some of them consider the CSM a joke, and the players are the targets of that joke. However, they do get elected by the players.
Reformatting the CSM won't do anything to help this facet. The fact that Mazz raised the issue in a CSM meeting isn't at all surprising. What is surprising is that the measure passed.
When I was in office, you can see by my history that I raised some issues that didn't get good support, and therefore didn't even bring them up to the CSM. Some of the issues that got a lot of support got shut down by my other delegates. However, this is a democratically-elected council, and this is part and parcel of the tale.
If you think this is wrong, use the power you've been granted by CCP to change it by doing research and voting in people who are responsible. Don't whine about a system that does somewhat work, even if it isn't perfect.
Less than 10% of the playerbase voted last time. We can do better, but that might actually require some *eek* effort from the players. Go to the polls and vote, and encourage friends and corporate members to do the same.
Agreed... but the problem remains none-the-less.
Even If I was to run and (possibly) could pull it off as I have a bit of an ace up my sleeve support wise.
<.<;;;
(Don't look so shocked... just because you hate my guts doesn't mean there's isn't a large contingent of people who do like me : O P )
I don't think its worth the effort or trouble in all honesty.
That should say something to you people... think about that for a bit.
For starters... the CSM has no checksum in place for crap that mazz pulls. One voice against a pile of CSM's who abuse that power is not going to help me whether I'm In it or not.
Secondly... the obvious brick wall of communication is likely NDA's and that's not good for someone (such as myself) who scream in the face of stupidity.
Thirdly... I'm a rather contrary person... people don't like me because I don't hesitate to shine a 100 million candle spotlight in your face if your a moron.
Not likely to win points there... even for the fact that I would never pull the crap mazz did... or lark (which was minor in comparison IMHO which should have cost Lark more than he had to pay but mazz did far worse).
CCP should enforce a strict set of rules concerning the submission of ideas and the process of which they are benched.
And I refuse to accept Mazz's "Pathetic" excuse for why she pushed it forward without proof from CCP itself. None of that NDA bull####.
I would support this proposal under normal circumstances but Bunyip has a valid point.
So I'm torn at the moment... but I agree... there is a serious problem... and it needs to be resolved... pronto.
IF they can bring any idea to the front of the list with minimal to ZERO public support... the CSM should likely be shut down and scrapped to be replaced by something with a little more accountability than it has today.
Not an easy thing to fix to be sure.
This is supposed to be (I REALLY HATE USING THIS WORD) Democratic process in which people bring forth ideas... they are critiqued... tested... and then the CSM votes those things that are popular.
But this is nothing.... the CSM are praticually dictators who agree to cooperate and vote on things.... we are just the peanut gallery who have no sway or control over the situation.
They choose to listen or to ignore... or laugh at us.
That's not how this is supposed to work...
If CCP intended to push this forward they would have never have bothered with the CSM in the FIRST PLACE. They would bypass them entirely... after all they are in charge and at large.
So all it comes down to is this... if the CSM is really who they are... then who do they answer to?
Sure as hell ain't us. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.19 17:40:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 19/10/2009 17:39:58 Yes... the CSM has totally become a laughing stock of EVE Online.
Supported.
Looks like PL has become the new Goonswarm... heh. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.19 20:32:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Fille Balle
I'd vote for you
To OP: Sorry, but that's all I have to say on this matter. Thank you.
You serious? I'd figure you've grown tired of me. :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 17:31:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/10/2009 17:33:37 Top that off with the fact that there pathetic excuse of "well run for CSM then if you don't like it" is no longer valid.
Based on the fact that only there stupid excuse of a posse would practicually garuentee the said idiot getting reelected.
As I've said... I might be able to make it past the front door... but then I'd be rendered useless every time I shot down an idiot CSM... because I'd be out gunned and out numbered.
I get that we don't know everything that's going on. I get that there is more to the CSM than we know.
But that will not excuse the fact that the flagrant behavior on these forums in total lack of respect and trolling by CSM itself... with there posse gangs making these boards turn into the COAD or worse yet the C&P would effectively make it a total waste of time to bother running for CSM.
As I would only be a drop in the perverse pond of foolishness... even with ripples... wouldn't do much to change the situation.
Only CCP would be able to slap them around...
Even with people who don' entirely like me have already indicated to me they would vote for me... I haven't figure out whether they are joking... or if there serious.
And as I've indicated before... I'm not convinced it would amount to a hill of beans when you got that ####### <points at Mazz> going on and embarrassing the entire goal and image of CSM itself.
The whole purpose of the CSM is no longer valid... all I see the CSM doing is ignoring the bulk of us... sitting there twiddling there thumbs and keeping quite... ex members (reputable or not) are doing more work than the current term.. and even they are apparently embarrassed.
Maybe I should start dragging people in here... but then they would have no bloody idea what was going on because only less than 10% even give a damn.
And in the end they would conclude that participating is nothing short a waste of time short of discussing ideas.
Maybe its time I move to features and Ideas because I'm growing tired of the foul stench that floods these boards.... and I can assure you... it's not coming from (dare I say) my party of participation...
There is literally no more point to assembly hall itself or jita park if the CSM is in its current form is free to do as they please.
Why bother discussing and pushing issues if they are likely to ignore you and do there own thing? That alone should make everyone with half a brain rather mad. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 21:16:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Fille Balle
Originally by: Drake Draconis You serious? I'd figure you've grown tired of me. :)
Far from it. I think I'm getting used to you, thus I now understand better how you think. You've grown on me.
Anyho, due to recent events, I'm considering wether this might not be such a bad idea after all.
o7 We'll need to chat in game some time... :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 21:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CommanderData211 I can't support this thread because you are growing on me too Drake. I may not agree with some of the specifics you lay down in terms of fixes and tweaks, and at times I feel like you shoot down ideas that you feel frivolous but might be fun, but I know that you love this game. I have a feeling that you would do everything in your power to improve the game to the best of your ability.
That being said, you don't choose the fights you can win, you fight the fights that need fighting.
It is one thing to disagree with someone with a valid reason.
It's an another to do so like a child and troll/insult/mock/ignore/stupidly go forth like a moron.
Yes I'm agressive that way... but I tend to respect peoples position.
For example... I have nothing personal agianst Mazz or Lark... I do take insult however with the spitting they have done on the very idea of what CSM is.. and when they come walking in here with the holier than thou atitude with a track record that shows nothing but trash for what they have to prove for it... that's an entirely different issue.
Lark violated a real life contractual agreement called a non-disclosure agreement... usually (at least in my knowledge) that results in getting sued/fined/charged criminally for causing damage to a working business... he's damn lucky what CCP did was all they did... they where well within there right to let him have it with everything they got.
Take the time to read the legalese and you'd be surprised... NDA's are no laughing matter... and he took it lightly obviously.
Mazz... "Miss I got's boobs" and "tons of alt's" with the entirety of the pandemic legion (whom I referr to as the Neo-goonswarm now) goes forth in the guise of working for the better of EVE... and then pushes a very suspicous "we need longer terms" proposal and at 3 to ???-133/200 (obviously a hell of a lot more than 3) it gets passed by CSM without hesitation or consideration of public opinion and then pushed on to CCP whom I hope will likely shoot it down for the obvious lack of common sense.... but even then we don't know as CCP tends to keep to itself!
The point is not a matter of what the CSM does or how. It's who they represent. they excuse there actions for "then run for office" when in fact they know that very little to no participation in the game population will result in changing the status quo.
So whose the fool now? That would be us... the overall public at the mercy of a bunch of egotistical asshats.
THAT... I wager is far worse than what ever I could come up with! Am I mad? Yes... I voted... I payed for this game... I plan to use what was given to me to my fullest extent... including my expressing an opinion.
The CSM has great potential... but there must be some changes to how they do business... or it should be terminated... immediately.
========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 23:46:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/10/2009 23:47:00
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Drake Draconis The CSM has great potential... but there must be some changes to how they do business...
I agree, their operational processes and practices need revamped. That won't stop idiots from acting like idiots, though. True colors always shine through, whatever their root cause (lack of maturity, inexperience, or just not giving a ****). Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, keep in mind that the worst behavior we've seen from CSM delegates has come from a tiny minority of their members. The vast majority have conducted themselves admirably--at least as far as we can tell from their behavior on the forums here and in meeting chat logs. Got to give credit where it's due.
Originally by: Drake Draconis or it should be terminated... immediately.
Disagree with you on that one, hence no thumbs up from me for your idea as a whole. One thing that would mitigate asshattery would be for CCP to give players the ability to impeach a CSM candidate who acted like a total ****. Related to that, the whole CSM process needs more participation (i.e., voting, competing for seats, and participating in the CSM forums) from the playerbase--ideas for which I've been internally brainstorming about quite a bit recently.
In response to the termination statement... yes... that was a bit extreme... but you got one major question here... what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get?
To implement a checksum requires an unbiased (if you wana call it that) party... unfortunately that means CCP whom moderates anyway... I'm not so sure if they would even go that far.
At that rate CCP is better off having a dedicated team to sit here on the forums and just chat things up... not likely to happen... hell the CSM will never go away at this rate.
Don't mean we all cant make a ruckus about it. But you do have valid points none-the-less. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 01:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Drake Draconis what is the point if there is no check sum system? Why bother at all if this is all we are going to get?
Because I believe that the type of CSM delegate who gets elected--and the efficacy of the CSM itself--will evolve toward a more idea form over time (no guarantee there won't be an occasional mutant, though!), assuming those of us with sufficient interest in how that could happen keep talking, do our part to encourage more players to participate, and step up ourselves when we can.
You ought to run for CSM5. If we both got elected, it could be fun to see what you're like in RL given your energetic opinions here.
Heh... you might be disappointed as I tend to be more mentally active than I am vocally.. unless there's a good discussion.
If anything CSM may very well result in me calming down a bit for fear of getting my ass handed to me by my peers. X) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.21 05:09:00 -
[9]
How bout that... sounds like CSM is driving away the interest.
Go figure. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.26 22:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Exie Um we do have a recourse, do not vote them back in!!! SHOKANAWE Seriously, it is all about participation, if you don't like what you see, then run for none of the above.
There's only one problem with that kind of mentality... which makes Pandemic Legions excuse (run for office) bull crap.
By voting for none of the above if at all.. it doesn't stop asshats from being re-elected by there own bloody alliance/mob.
Minor detail to be sure.. but a valid one at that. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.27 21:23:00 -
[11]
We need a CSM that's accountable for there actions...
No CSM is worse.
Current CSM "system" is an insult but its better than nothing. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.27 23:22:00 -
[12]
If I knew the answer to that question I'd come up with it.
For starters... these cannidates only get in with there massive alliance posse's backing them.
Not all CSM's are elected this way... but anyone in goonswarm... PL.... or any other others... are likely to win either way.
So player participation is a big problem as a result.
But who keeps CSM in check when they go about there business?
Don't know how to solve that problem.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.28 01:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Aynen
Originally by: Drake Draconis If I knew the answer to that question I'd come up with it.
For starters... these cannidates only get in with there massive alliance posse's backing them.
Not all CSM's are elected this way... but anyone in goonswarm... PL.... or any other others... are likely to win either way.
So player participation is a big problem as a result.
But who keeps CSM in check when they go about there business?
Don't know how to solve that problem.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
I suppose the problem would be reduced if people could not vote on a member of their own alliance. This of course brings forth a host of other problems, but it might still be worth it.
I thought about that... but then the REALLY good people who have large alliances backing them would be cut off as well.
Nasty pickle to be sure.
You should start a different thread about this... this thread is not what I call a good way of discussing the CSM troubles.
As I think disbanding them is a baaaad idea. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:39:00 -
[14]
You can never take the human factor out of any group of people.
CCP included.
The fact this is a democractic process is a insult in itself.
Democracy implies people are discerning enough to know the difference between good and bad... in the end all a democratic process gets you is a popularity stunt.
Like it is in real life.... which doesn't really matter a whole heck of a lot even today. (Thank you oh so very much college electoral)
Such things translate to the current CSM... you have a "democratic" process of election (note the quote marks ;) ) and then you look at who really votes?
Therein is your problem.
I didn't vote last time around because A: I was very tired and lazy. B: I had no incentive to vote let alone lift a damn finger because I was so ****ed off at Mazz and Lark for the bull**** stunt they pulled.
People are going to react just like I did....
Why bother? Why should they vote when its a laughing stock?
We are just single individual pilots... how many votes will it take before someone can make a difference? In the end... its a futile gesture to even vote.
Fix that problem... and you'll get somewhere. Give the people an incentive to vote. (NO not bribing : O P ) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.28 16:03:00 -
[15]
Granted... but no CSM is worse.
We need gamers who are discerning enough to relay problems and ideas to CCP.
Making them listen to potentially 50 to 60 thousand pilots is not what I call a smart move.
Committee or not... the CSM is nice for that particular problem.
However... the individuals who are put in the CSM.... well.. perhaps its time we inflict more qualifications and less grandstanding. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.28 16:11:00 -
[16]
I honestly doubt a PhD let alone a bloody psychiatrist is going to know anything about EVE Online to be quite honest.
The people who get hired to do the job should be unbiased seasoned eve pilots.
Good luck finding that. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.28 17:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aynen
Originally by: Drake Draconis I honestly doubt a PhD let alone a bloody psychiatrist is going to know anything about EVE Online to be quite honest. The people who get hired to do the job should be unbiased seasoned eve pilots. Good luck finding that.
I disagree, the permanent CSM would only be 'relaying the messege'. They're there to figure out what people want, not how to give it to them, that's up to CCP's game designers. I'd imagine the permanent CSM are statisticians, and psychologists who know how to set up surveys and how to analyze them.
Think about what you just said.
Who would you rather deliever the message... someone who understands and has done whatever the hell it is your doing?
We don't need to be pyschoanalyzed and share our problems while lying on a couch.
We need people who play this game on a frequent basis... people who understand the mechanics and day to day struggles in working around the problems and trying to come up with solutions.
People who have no agenda and not interested in grandstanding or getting a free trip to fanfest and don't give a crap about us.
Getting some PHD or some psycho to listen to us is a total waste of time.
========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.28 19:00:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 28/01/2010 19:00:18
Originally by: Aynen
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Think about what you just said. Who would you rather deliever the message... someone who understands and has done whatever the hell it is your doing? We don't need to be pyschoanalyzed and share our problems while lying on a couch. We need people who play this game on a frequent basis... people who understand the mechanics and day to day struggles in working around the problems and trying to come up with solutions. People who have no agenda and not interested in grandstanding or getting a free trip to fanfest and don't give a crap about us. Getting some PHD or some psycho to listen to us is a total waste of time.
The people relaying the messege really have no need for playing experience, the designers who decide what to do with the data however, do. I consider it a mistake that CSM members see themselves as needing to know what fixes player's problems. That's gamedesign, not the task of a representative of the people. A representative needs to know how to listen. And people who have surveys and statistical analysis in their trackrecord of education can do so.
Alright let me attempt to explain what I mean.
I work for a computer shop.... I sell PC's... and Mac's.
I also fix them... I'm a certified tech... a professional Apple Care technician to boot.
Wouldn't you rather talk to the Tech who fixes them.... as far as purchasing a computer... as opposed to some punk sales kid who's more interested in getting a commission check?
Who would you trust more?
EVE is its own world... its own culture. You try to explain EVE to some average joe who plays WOW and they are going to go glossy eyed.
I would expect the same for some random PHD or some such.
Bottom line - EVE is like its own langauge... if you don't speak it... know it... fluently... hireing a translator is going to be foolish.
I do not want some random Joe to handle the critical process of collecting and coalating data for CCP when it comes to critical matters such as lag.... or skill injections... or super-capital ships.
I would rather have someone who knows how to fly that said ship and (dare i say) is intimately familiar with it.
Not someone who knows how to read a book and generate stats... hell anyone can do that.
Few can play EVE online and know it well enough to relay information.
Not even I would fit that job... I'm just starting... and I've been at it for a little over 2 years if not at.
Furthermore... my pet peeves with Mazz and Lark (whom I seem to pick on frequently) are there actions... not there experience.
If either of them tell me "This ship does this and this way because I've been doing this for this long and that's that" I'm not likely to argue with them.
I will argue with them when it comes to there stance on ethics and accountability.
So when it boils down to my large sore spot with those 2 its political... not experience in EVE.
Bottom line yet again... if we don't get people who are experienced with the daily life of EVE... they have no business representing us let alone dealing with the data they collect. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.28 20:48:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 28/01/2010 20:50:28
Originally by: Aynen Granted, but the expertese you're after tends to come in a package deal, along with the personal interest such an expert has invested in the game, aswell as that he can't be held very accountable, being that he's just a player, not a payed employee who has his livelihood depending on his ability to keep his job. Also, a lot of experts lack the other skills required to be a representative: they feel they're so keenly aware of the game and what it needs that they stop to listen. With permanent employees who have good credentials, you will lose some of the experience, and gain reliability, which in my view is a good trade. Would ofcourse be nicer to get both, but how do you go about getting that?
That's why I said Unbiased Experienced Pilots.
But again... I don't know how.... surely someone around here has an idea that would involve keeping what we got... but altering the rules or the process of election to make it fit better.
Perhaps you force them to leave there various alliances/corporations much like an ISD volunteer... this would force them to be detached to a degree and would have to do a great deal of work around to get anywhere.
And to prevent alt abuse... require a 2 year old pilot age requirement to get elected in the first place. (For those with more than one account... verify via credit card records and such... hell they (CCP) want a passport.. its just gonna be a little obvious if they are frakking around)
No one should be allowed to run if they are on an different account. (if that's not a rule already it should be!)
This keeps the repeat alternate crap and people who get thrown out from coming back without a great deal of effort and cost to there own.
Nothing stops them from doing alliance business... but it would give the impression of neutrality and less on judging them due to there ties to whatever alliance.
It may not be perfect... but it would cause alot of frustration on the current status quo and may change it up juuust enough to make it work. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.28 21:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Aynen
Originally by: Drake Draconis
That's why I said Unbiased Experienced Pilots. But again... I don't know how.... surely someone around here has an idea that would involve keeping what we got... but altering the rules or the process of election to make it fit better. Perhaps you force them to leave there various alliances/corporations much like an ISD volunteer... this would force them to be detached to a degree and would have to do a great deal of work around to get anywhere. And to prevent alt abuse... require a 2 year old pilot age requirement to get elected in the first place. (For those with more than one account... verify via credit card records and such... hell they (CCP) want a passport.. its just gonna be a little obvious if they are frakking around) No one should be allowed to run if they are on an different account. (if that's not a rule already it should be!) This keeps the repeat alternate crap and people who get thrown out from coming back without a great deal of effort and cost to there own. Nothing stops them from doing alliance business... but it would give the impression of neutrality and less on judging them due to there ties to whatever alliance. It may not be perfect... but it would cause alot of frustration on the current status quo and may change it up juuust enough to make it work.
To be honest, I'm rather sceptical of that that would work. Mostly because in order for the people to have faith in the system again, it shouldn't look too much like the CSM we allready know or they'll argue that it hasn't really changed, and they'll still have biass against it. and without good playerbase involvement, it won't work no matter what we do.
CSM is hated because of peoples actions... not because of the CSM itself. They just don't know who to blame... so the CSM gets slapped around.
So change the behavior of the CSM and get people to try again. Restrict who can run and who cant... make it harder to get in. I would give it an another shot if convinced there was a good shot.
But shutting it down would be worse. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
|
|
|
|