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Mituno Sakai
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:00:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mituno Sakai on 30/10/2004 13:06:00
No this isnt the right forum, but frankly if this thread was created elsewhere it would get the addition of a truckload of people that didnt have any Eve conflict experience...and more to the point that didnt want any.
So Eve of Today:
-people logoff or retreat to safe spots if the upcoming battle isnt quite to their liking.
-numbers mean very little since you cannot force anyone to fight bad odds.
-Local chat and map display makes it *real* easy for anybody to know what kind of odds they are facing.
-dual mwd's, warp core stabs (to a lesser extend) makes sure you have a real good chance to escape even if you should engage in a losing battle.
-there are no fixed targets and no penalty for not showing up to fight.
Eve in Shiva:
-perhaps a dual mwd nerf?
-perhaps hide people in local untill they talk?
-map view stays the same.
-POS fixed targets.
Help me out if I missed some elements.
OK, the point of this thread is to explore if Shiva will be any different from today.
Eve is a strange mix of people. The usual rpg,mmorpg (or whatever you call it), the empire builders and the counter strike players - to name a few.
The problem is that the development team from the dispositions made in the past clearly have little strategy/conflict game expirence (they are rpg/mmorpg'ers). They dabble a little. Tweak a little. Test a little. Never really exploiting the vast ressources of knowledge in the market. You dont start from scratch when doing stuff like this. You stand of the shoulders of others and try to achieve new heights.
What am I rambling about?
This is still a "protected" or "carebear" game, if you like. Even on the 0 sec front.
Eve is a tool box, but CCP is making all the tools from foam and rubber. We need sharp tools. Strong tools. Tools with which enemies can be defeated.
Right now the only option we are left with is pretty much to bore the other guy(s) to death. Conflict is 90% waiting and 10% actual combat (or less).
That is why it doesnt really appeal to anybody but the most diehard players.
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Mituno Sakai
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:00:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Mituno Sakai on 30/10/2004 13:06:00
No this isnt the right forum, but frankly if this thread was created elsewhere it would get the addition of a truckload of people that didnt have any Eve conflict experience...and more to the point that didnt want any.
So Eve of Today:
-people logoff or retreat to safe spots if the upcoming battle isnt quite to their liking.
-numbers mean very little since you cannot force anyone to fight bad odds.
-Local chat and map display makes it *real* easy for anybody to know what kind of odds they are facing.
-dual mwd's, warp core stabs (to a lesser extend) makes sure you have a real good chance to escape even if you should engage in a losing battle.
-there are no fixed targets and no penalty for not showing up to fight.
Eve in Shiva:
-perhaps a dual mwd nerf?
-perhaps hide people in local untill they talk?
-map view stays the same.
-POS fixed targets.
Help me out if I missed some elements.
OK, the point of this thread is to explore if Shiva will be any different from today.
Eve is a strange mix of people. The usual rpg,mmorpg (or whatever you call it), the empire builders and the counter strike players - to name a few.
The problem is that the development team from the dispositions made in the past clearly have little strategy/conflict game expirence (they are rpg/mmorpg'ers). They dabble a little. Tweak a little. Test a little. Never really exploiting the vast ressources of knowledge in the market. You dont start from scratch when doing stuff like this. You stand of the shoulders of others and try to achieve new heights.
What am I rambling about?
This is still a "protected" or "carebear" game, if you like. Even on the 0 sec front.
Eve is a tool box, but CCP is making all the tools from foam and rubber. We need sharp tools. Strong tools. Tools with which enemies can be defeated.
Right now the only option we are left with is pretty much to bore the other guy(s) to death. Conflict is 90% waiting and 10% actual combat (or less).
That is why it doesnt really appeal to anybody but the most diehard players.
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sutty
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:08:00 -
[3]
-perhaps a dual mwd nerf?
-perhaps hide people in local untill they talk?
Already in shiva.
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sutty
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:08:00 -
[4]
-perhaps a dual mwd nerf?
-perhaps hide people in local untill they talk?
Already in shiva.
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Brunis
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:14:00 -
[5]
I think Shiva will be a much more PVP oriented game than Eve is right now, the removal of lacal and map makes it much easier to sneak up to people and also hide your numbers this along with the removal dual MWD should make PVP a much better experience!
Most of PVP today is about having more numbers, patience at gate camping and be quick so map does not update and reviel your position.
Shiva will change all that and a lot more tactics will now be posible!
Thoes that don't want PVP can still go and hide if they want, but there is no dual MWD so pirating might come back in game yarrr! 
/Brunis
Another dog lifting its leg |
Brunis
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:14:00 -
[6]
I think Shiva will be a much more PVP oriented game than Eve is right now, the removal of lacal and map makes it much easier to sneak up to people and also hide your numbers this along with the removal dual MWD should make PVP a much better experience!
Most of PVP today is about having more numbers, patience at gate camping and be quick so map does not update and reviel your position.
Shiva will change all that and a lot more tactics will now be posible!
Thoes that don't want PVP can still go and hide if they want, but there is no dual MWD so pirating might come back in game yarrr!
/Brunis
Another dog lifting its leg |
Zerodragoon
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:14:00 -
[7]
Actually local is just on a five mintue timer atm in shiva unless last patch changed it.
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Zerodragoon
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:14:00 -
[8]
Actually local is just on a five mintue timer atm in shiva unless last patch changed it.
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Shirei
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Shirei on 30/10/2004 13:29:53
 Originally by: Brunis
I think Shiva will be a much more PVP oriented game than Eve is right now, the removal of lacal and map makes it much easier to sneak up to people and also hide your numbers this along with the removal dual MWD should make PVP a much better experience!
Make that 'PvP will be much more ganking-oriented.' and even fights, which are already rare enough nowadays, will become even rarer. 
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Shirei
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:27:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Shirei on 30/10/2004 13:29:53
Originally by: Brunis
I think Shiva will be a much more PVP oriented game than Eve is right now, the removal of lacal and map makes it much easier to sneak up to people and also hide your numbers this along with the removal dual MWD should make PVP a much better experience!
Make that 'PvP will be much more ganking-oriented.' and even fights, which are already rare enough nowadays, will become even rarer.
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Blazde
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:33:00 -
[11]
The '90% waiting / 10% combat' (it's waaay less than 10% in my experience) is exactly what makes the game strategic. If you want sharp tools and instantly defeated enemies then you are a counterstrike player and you should go play counterstrike.
The carebear element creates a very unique 'civilian' population which would be impossible to get in any other game. Personally I don't understand why they are there and what enjoyment they get from the game, but I'm very glad they are because it adds so much to the realism.
Btw, you missed (possibly) the biggest 'end-to-consentual-pvp' change in shiva: system scanning / safespot finding.
__________________
4S Corporation Kill List |
Blazde
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Posted - 2004.10.30 13:33:00 -
[12]
The '90% waiting / 10% combat' (it's waaay less than 10% in my experience) is exactly what makes the game strategic. If you want sharp tools and instantly defeated enemies then you are a counterstrike player and you should go play counterstrike.
The carebear element creates a very unique 'civilian' population which would be impossible to get in any other game. Personally I don't understand why they are there and what enjoyment they get from the game, but I'm very glad they are because it adds so much to the realism.
Btw, you missed (possibly) the biggest 'end-to-consentual-pvp' change in shiva: system scanning / safespot finding.
__________________
4S Corporation Kill List |
Shirei
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Posted - 2004.10.30 14:26:00 -
[13]
I don't know how the system scanning is going to work though. Unless it allows you to directly to warp to ships (which I don't think it will), it will only make finding 'bad' safespots between objects very easy... while better safespots will become a lot harder to find due to the removal of dual MWDs.
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Shirei
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Posted - 2004.10.30 14:26:00 -
[14]
I don't know how the system scanning is going to work though. Unless it allows you to directly to warp to ships (which I don't think it will), it will only make finding 'bad' safespots between objects very easy... while better safespots will become a lot harder to find due to the removal of dual MWDs.
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Damajink
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Posted - 2004.10.30 14:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Damajink on 30/10/2004 14:41:18
Originally by: Brunis
I think Shiva will be a much more PVP oriented game than Eve is right now, the removal of lacal and map makes it much easier to sneak up to people and also hide your numbers this along with the removal dual MWD should make PVP a much better experience!
Most of PVP today is about having more numbers, patience at gate camping and be quick so map does not update and reviel your position.
Shiva will change all that and a lot more tactics will now be posible!
Thoes that don't want PVP can still go and hide if they want, but there is no dual MWD so pirating might come back in game yarrr!
I seriously cannot understand why people think that removing local and the map will help PvP. If you can't FIND anyone, how the hell are you going to SHOOT anyone? PvP will be even more focused around camping gates and gankings than it already is.
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Damajink
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Posted - 2004.10.30 14:38:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Damajink on 30/10/2004 14:41:18
Originally by: Brunis
I think Shiva will be a much more PVP oriented game than Eve is right now, the removal of lacal and map makes it much easier to sneak up to people and also hide your numbers this along with the removal dual MWD should make PVP a much better experience!
Most of PVP today is about having more numbers, patience at gate camping and be quick so map does not update and reviel your position.
Shiva will change all that and a lot more tactics will now be posible!
Thoes that don't want PVP can still go and hide if they want, but there is no dual MWD so pirating might come back in game yarrr!
I seriously cannot understand why people think that removing local and the map will help PvP. If you can't FIND anyone, how the hell are you going to SHOOT anyone? PvP will be even more focused around camping gates and gankings than it already is.
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EternalDark
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Posted - 2004.10.30 14:44:00 -
[17]
Lets remove insta jump bm's as well as mwd, even the playing field for everyone. Your not supposed to escape if your traveling ALONE in a BS or indy.
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EternalDark
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Posted - 2004.10.30 14:44:00 -
[18]
Lets remove insta jump bm's as well as mwd, even the playing field for everyone. Your not supposed to escape if your traveling ALONE in a BS or indy.
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Mituno Sakai
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Posted - 2004.10.30 14:53:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Mituno Sakai on 30/10/2004 15:00:21
1) System scanning wont change anything. I'm willing to bet that the advantage will still be on the guy trying to evade. Just because people stay at the same safe doesnt mean they will after system scanning is introduced. How long do you think a "safe" will take to locate? I'm gonna guess 3-5 mins with a good team. This is if I'm being really optimistic. 3 mins is plenty of time to relocate to a new safe. Nothing will change. pvp will still be consentual.
2) I refuse to believe I was just called a counter strike player because I thought the 90/10 rule of pvp was a problem. Also I refuse to believe ANYBODY want to sit camping gates for 60 hours in 5 days only to have 6 hours of actual combat. In case you do its time for therapy. Trust me on this. I'm old. If it has come to that your life is on the wrong track!
3) Locating people without map view. Not gonna go there again. It was discussed at length during the last 'vote'. Suffice it to say that if CCP had people doing their background reseach in strategy games, other online conflict games and rl scenarios it would be entirely possible to make a working scheme. Btw a 'poll' is about the worst way to decide this. There is another 90/10 rule in Eve. 90% of the players are ignorant/dumb and dont know the game. This is a fact, ask anybody who know what they are doing in pvp, market etc.
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Mituno Sakai
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Posted - 2004.10.30 14:53:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Mituno Sakai on 30/10/2004 15:00:21
1) System scanning wont change anything. I'm willing to bet that the advantage will still be on the guy trying to evade. Just because people stay at the same safe doesnt mean they will after system scanning is introduced. How long do you think a "safe" will take to locate? I'm gonna guess 3-5 mins with a good team. This is if I'm being really optimistic. 3 mins is plenty of time to relocate to a new safe. Nothing will change. pvp will still be consentual.
2) I refuse to believe I was just called a counter strike player because I thought the 90/10 rule of pvp was a problem. Also I refuse to believe ANYBODY want to sit camping gates for 60 hours in 5 days only to have 6 hours of actual combat. In case you do its time for therapy. Trust me on this. I'm old. If it has come to that your life is on the wrong track!
3) Locating people without map view. Not gonna go there again. It was discussed at length during the last 'vote'. Suffice it to say that if CCP had people doing their background reseach in strategy games, other online conflict games and rl scenarios it would be entirely possible to make a working scheme. Btw a 'poll' is about the worst way to decide this. There is another 90/10 rule in Eve. 90% of the players are ignorant/dumb and dont know the game. This is a fact, ask anybody who know what they are doing in pvp, market etc.
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Stetu
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Posted - 2004.10.30 15:29:00 -
[21]
My wishes for pvp
1) Players in space/Players docked = an agent service like locator missions.
2) Local gets the boot all together (but it was funny those few days when you saw join and leave in local).
3) They start un-nerfing things instead of nerfing them.
4) They actually listen to us pvpers instead of the carebears.
5) They realize that if they don't follow steb 4 this will become EnB 2!
*bows*
Thank you! |
Stetu
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Posted - 2004.10.30 15:29:00 -
[22]
My wishes for pvp
1) Players in space/Players docked = an agent service like locator missions.
2) Local gets the boot all together (but it was funny those few days when you saw join and leave in local).
3) They start un-nerfing things instead of nerfing them.
4) They actually listen to us pvpers instead of the carebears.
5) They realize that if they don't follow steb 4 this will become EnB 2!
*bows*
Thank you! |
Dianabolic
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Posted - 2004.10.30 16:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Damajink
I seriously cannot understand why people think that removing local and the map will help PvP. If you can't FIND anyone, how the hell are you going to SHOOT anyone? PvP will be even more focused around camping gates and gankings than it already is.
Black ops frigates, triangulation modules, proper scouts - Bring it on.
And yes, i also think that bookmarks should be done away with altogether.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2004.10.30 16:16:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Damajink
I seriously cannot understand why people think that removing local and the map will help PvP. If you can't FIND anyone, how the hell are you going to SHOOT anyone? PvP will be even more focused around camping gates and gankings than it already is.
Black ops frigates, triangulation modules, proper scouts - Bring it on.
And yes, i also think that bookmarks should be done away with altogether.
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.10.30 16:26:00 -
[25]
I think from CCP's point of view, the balance is about balancing hard-core vs. casual gamers. Both type of players pay the same subscription fee, but I think that casual gamers have a lot higher numbers (even amongst warring alliances).
For example, if you made all ships persistant in space, and people play for 1-2 hours a day, eve junkies (like myself, occasionaly) could just scan around and pop enemy ships in space. There is no chance in hell that casual and hard-core gamer would have even playing field. And that would kinda go against the game design as being tactics oriented vs time oriented.
However I think that some stuff like dual mwd, oversized ab's, and insta jumps need tweaking. Also I am for removal of "number of pilots in space" and local (unless you speak in local).
--
2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.10.30 16:26:00 -
[26]
I think from CCP's point of view, the balance is about balancing hard-core vs. casual gamers. Both type of players pay the same subscription fee, but I think that casual gamers have a lot higher numbers (even amongst warring alliances).
For example, if you made all ships persistant in space, and people play for 1-2 hours a day, eve junkies (like myself, occasionaly) could just scan around and pop enemy ships in space. There is no chance in hell that casual and hard-core gamer would have even playing field. And that would kinda go against the game design as being tactics oriented vs time oriented.
However I think that some stuff like dual mwd, oversized ab's, and insta jumps need tweaking. Also I am for removal of "number of pilots in space" and local (unless you speak in local).
--
2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
lollerkins
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Posted - 2004.10.30 17:52:00 -
[27]
more gate camping, more zzzzzzzz
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lollerkins
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Posted - 2004.10.30 17:52:00 -
[28]
more gate camping, more zzzzzzzz
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Jeleila
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Posted - 2004.10.30 18:01:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jeleila on 30/10/2004 18:08:44
why not introducing a special "long-range" sensor skill for each ship/pilot? so various ships/pilots have a different overview on map view and surrounding systems.
eg. a frigate can overview the next 2-3 system ahead/back, a cruiser 4-5 and so on.. would be much better in my eyes than to have an overview of the whole universe. 
EDIT: referring to the "Show pilots in space" option
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Jeleila
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Posted - 2004.10.30 18:01:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Jeleila on 30/10/2004 18:08:44
why not introducing a special "long-range" sensor skill for each ship/pilot? so various ships/pilots have a different overview on map view and surrounding systems.
eg. a frigate can overview the next 2-3 system ahead/back, a cruiser 4-5 and so on.. would be much better in my eyes than to have an overview of the whole universe.
EDIT: referring to the "Show pilots in space" option
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