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lm89	Posted - 2009.10.26 02:39:00 - [1] Hey all, Iv been doing much reading and gathered manufacturing is one of the best ways to make big money in eve. So iv embarked in skills training and am close to Production efficiency V at the moment. Iv been doing calculations and have established there seems to be almost no profit to be made on pretty much anything. Everything i look at (T1 stuff) ends up producing razor thin profits with Production efficiency to V and a high level of BPO research factored in. IS this the case? I hope im wrong because i like the idea of manufacturing and have already started collecting ammo BPO's. How do you experienced builders do it? Any tips appreciated as im knowledge hungry at the moment. Cheers
voogru Gallente Massive Damage MACHI MISCHIEF	Posted - 2009.10.26 02:43:00 - [2] You'll make more ISK with 1 level 4 mission than you would make in a month of productiong of t1 stuff. The reason is simple, you are competing with players that probably mine the minerals themselves, so they think that the minerals are free. You're better off trading, buying their cheap modules and relisting them for profit. Hate Farmers? Click Here
lm89	Posted - 2009.10.26 02:52:00 - [3] i see. but were does the notion of profit in manufacturing come into it? t2 and capital production?
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.26 02:57:00 - [4] Originally by: lm89 i see. but were does the notion of profit in manufacturing come into it? t2 and capital production? There is a lot more profit in T2 and capital production. Well not so much capital construction right now as no one is doing any fighting until Dominion comes out. However with T1 there is profit to be made, you just have to do your research and use buy orders for minerals.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.26 02:57:00 - [5] Edited by: Signore Kaeota on 26/10/2009 02:59:37 1) Science and Industry - not MD. 2) Yes, it produces razor thin margins, and in many cases loses you money if you're not careful. 3) Why should I tell you how I make money? You're clearly capable of your own research. EDIT: To all the people above, I make a bil a month easy sitting in jita, buying jita minerals, manufacturing and reselling - on one toon. I've checked T2 profit margins, they suck more than T1 and capital production makes a loss more often than T1 does. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
lm89	Posted - 2009.10.26 03:18:00 - [6] Hey Breaker, so the key is buy orders for the minerals? At present my calculations have incorporated Jita prices for the minerals, because i didn't realize anyone was wanting to sell any lower . I have other questions and many would probably get annoyed because i know im not the first to bug the forums with the SOS type threads, but ill just nag with one; Many people advise new manufacturers to start off with ammo ect but the profit margins are so pathetic i was thinking of jumping straight to cruisers ect- is this a bad move if im not an experienced manufacturer? even still though they generate pretty pathetic margins but much better than ammo... Also, apologies, i can see iv put this thread in the wrong forum....
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.26 03:52:00 - [7] Edited by: Signore Kaeota on 26/10/2009 03:53:27 That specific piece of advice is to do with brand new players - and is given because you can get into the ammo market instantly, with less than a mil in isk. Cruisers take a little more, BCs a bit more and BSs a bit more again; while capitals can take tens of billions. All manufacturing, be it ammo, ship or mod (except capital and T2) is exactly the same - only thing that changes is required isk, and time. People are very willing to sell for less than jita price - go to mission hubs and you'll get loads. I recently bought several million trit for 0.50isk ea - roughly a fifth of jita price by memory. Also, look into a tool called MLCalc - it'll help you a lot. Spread sheets are another good option. All this and more can be found in S&I. EDIT: Also, when talking margins, you generally speak isk / hour. EG, mod1 takes 5 hours to build and when sold nets me 500k profit. Mod2 takes 8 hours to build and nets me 750k profit. Mod1 actually makes more profit. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
lm89	Posted - 2009.10.26 04:19:00 - [8] thanks signore, much appreciated.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.10.26 05:02:00 - [9] Edited by: Akita T on 26/10/2009 05:03:15 Most T1 battleships still yield around 5-to-20 mil ISK/day/slot (with Jita mineral buy order and Jita ship sell order prices)... that's 1.5-to-6 bil ISK per month per 10-slot character, with an initial investment of 7-to-20 bil ISK for the BPOs and needed research... or a lower profit per month, but with minimal initial investment for BPCs. _ We are recruiting \| Beginer's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper
Dismantler	Posted - 2009.10.26 09:05:00 - [10] Actually you can make a lot of ISK by manufacturing T1 items. Even cheap stuff like ammo, drones, frigates and so on can make you good isk. Sometimes with 10% or more margin. There are realy a few simple things that you have to do: 1. Use buy orders for the minerals. You can try to buy the lowend minerals close to your manufacturing place, it saves hauling time. 2. Use researched blueprints. Sometimes you can even profit with unresearched, but you get much more with researched. Try to avoid blueprint copies. They eat your margin. Buy the researched BPOs with the profit you make and use them 3. Deversification. Do not focus on one or too few items, as it is like 50/50 win/lose. if you manufacture more stuff, you are better prepared agains price flutoations. 4. Manufacturin is realy profitable if done in large scale. Because of the thin magrins, you can make a large sums of ISK only on large scale operations. To do this, you must have mates, or you will have EVE as your second, if not first job and tons of alt accounts. 5. The most important to me. Diversify the sell locations. First you can try to sell at places where there is no much competion, like selling ammo/drones/cruisers/BCs in lowsec, or selling with low margin at high volume in busy places, like mission and trade hubs. Tbh ammo and drones are good starters. Try to spread your wares, don't put all of them in one system/station/region. That way they will sell faster and you will get info on Just do your homework. Don't try to sell PvP modules/ships/ammo to Mission runners. Also if you see that someone is selling the stuff you are manufacturing at lower prices then you can manufacture it for, just buy it off. It is his loss. Resell at the same place, or move it to place with better prices, while manufacturing something else in the same time. Best regards, Dismantler

Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.10.26 09:21:00 - [11] How is æif I mine it it's freeÆ different from æif I buy it from a buy order it's cheapÆ?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.10.26 09:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Jackie Fisher How is ‘if I mine it it's free’ different from ‘if I buy it from a buy order it's cheap’? It's not If you can turn around and sell the minerals for more profit (after sales tax and two broker fees) and/or faster than you could sell the manufactured ships, you're not doing something good. Now, if you COULDN'T sell the minerals fast enough at mineral sell order prices, not even close to the speed you could after "conversion" into ships, then it would make sense to do it even if you would make more money selling it all as minerals directly... however, you do need to make some profit this way too, otherwise it's again pointless. _ We are recruiting \| Beginer's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper
Dismantler	Posted - 2009.10.26 09:31:00 - [13] Edited by: Dismantler on 26/10/2009 09:31:57 Originally by: Jackie Fisher How is æif I mine it it's freeÆ different from æif I buy it from a buy order it's cheapÆ? Because it is cheaper compared with when buying from a sell order, not free lol. There is a the difference and I know you see. You were just tempted to write a fail post Best regards, Dismantler
Charles Swann	Posted - 2009.10.26 09:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Jackie Fisher How is æif I mine it it's freeÆ different from æif I buy it from a buy order it's cheapÆ? it's not. (and the same is true for using bpos vs using bpcs)
Crimsona Endarius	Posted - 2009.10.26 09:55:00 - [15] Originally by: lm89 Many people advise new manufacturers to start off with ammo ect but the profit margins are so pathetic i was thinking of jumping straight to cruisers ect- is this a bad move if im not an experienced manufacturer? even still though they generate pretty pathetic margins but much better than ammo... Here's a free tip. Join a zero sec corporation which has access to an outpost with a factory. Many people will disagree with me on this, but I myself find that the empire is like the tutorial sandbox of the game. While I know that experienced / cunning / informed / diligent people can and do make billions on top of billions in months, weeks, a few probably in days, I think the real land of opportunities for the average player is in zero sec. Basicly everything makes more money in zero sec. Getting your hands on the opportunity, and making use of it in the way that doesn't get you on the KOS list and actually benefits the group as a whole, is half the fun.
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.10.26 10:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Dismantler Edited by: Dismantler on 26/10/2009 09:31:57 Originally by: Jackie Fisher No pyramid here. Because it is cheaper compared with when buying from a sell order, not free lol. There is a the difference and I know you see. You were just tempted to write a fail post YouÆre correct, I do see. It is cheaper but it doesnÆt make your manufacturing more profitable, it just means you have introduced an additional profit generating activity (mineral trading). Overall profit goes up, profit form manufacturing remains the same.
Jukhta Mein Independent Traders and Builders MPA	Posted - 2009.10.26 10:16:00 - [17] Hm maybe you should add one more question mark to the topic title.
Leana Darkrider Minmatar Creatio -ex- nihilo The Donkey Rollers	Posted - 2009.10.26 10:49:00 - [18] Originally by: voogru You'll make more ISK with 1 level 4 mission than you would make in a month of productiong of t1 stuff. The reason is simple, you are competing with players that probably mine the minerals themselves, so they think that the minerals are free. You're better off trading, buying their cheap modules and relisting them for profit. This is not entirely true. If you build the most common stuff and sell it in jita, then yeah, you're right. But if you sell anywhere but Jita, even the common stuff can get you more isk then lvl4's And if you pick the right stuff, you'll be making alot more isk then running lvl4's ______________________________________ If only EVE could cook, if only....
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.26 11:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Dismantler Edited by: Dismantler on 26/10/2009 09:31:57 Originally by: Jackie Fisher How is æif I mine it it's freeÆ different from æif I buy it from a buy order it's cheapÆ? Because it is cheaper compared with when buying from a sell order, not free lol. There is a the difference and I know you see. You were just tempted to write a fail post But if I mine it, it costs me nothing; does this mean all the minerals I mine are free? [/sarcasm] Your a moron. No matter what price you get them at, the value is the same. Originally by: Charles Swann it's not. (and the same is true for using bpos vs using bpcs) Ahh, if only capital producers realised this. The five minute timer wrecks Signore Kaeota for 5,000,000,000 Mental Damage! -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
RAW23	Posted - 2009.10.26 11:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Signore Kaeota I've checked T2 profit margins, they suck more than T1 and capital production makes a loss more often than T1 does. This may be true of some t2 items but, if you do the invent cycle as well as the production, you can get some really excellent margins on the right products (as Signore should know, having invested in my T2 mod production line; maybe he's trying to protect his investment ).

Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.26 11:31:00 - [21] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Signore Kaeota I've checked T2 profit margins, they suck more than T1 and capital production makes a loss more often than T1 does. This may be true of some t2 items but, if you do the invent cycle as well as the production, you can get some really excellent margins on the right products (as Signore should know, having invested in my T2 mod production line; maybe he's trying to protect his investment ). Then the profit comes from the invention, not the manufacturing ;-) and yes, some items make a killing - as do some T1 and some capitals -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
Ebanni	Posted - 2009.10.26 11:33:00 - [22] Manufacturing, per se, is like any other part of the economic game in EvE. It's a "right place at the right time" issue. The best way to capitalize is to keep an eye out for Market shortages and fill them before someone else does. Sure, this means you will be keeping a fairly large inventory of goods "on hand", and some days you may not move a significant volume of goods, but that's one way the Market can be played. In any case, most economic "get rich" strategies are long term so if at first you don't succeed -- be patient.
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.10.26 11:38:00 - [23] Problems are, * NPC's still drop T1 loot (I heard rumour that in Dominion this will end) * Players think that their mined minerals are free and they do not give any value to them (this will never change) and because those problems - you can skip the building part and just buy cheap, relist high.
Ebanni	Posted - 2009.10.26 11:52:00 - [24] Getting rid of some T1 loot items is an idea that's been tossed around for awhile. Hopefully, when it happens, the meta 3 and meta 4 items are retained because I really don't see the Invention system or Loyalty Store offerings being revamped to offer BPC's for T1 "named" stuff if CCP were to eliminate all T1 loot in npc wrecks. However, I don't see T1 loot prices shooting up overnight either, even with the usual fear-mongering manipulation tactics, since there are already vast piles of the stuff in player corporation hangars that will take months to use up if not otherwise reprocessed. Either way, the ultimate result of making T1 mod BPO's actually useful is a good idea.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.26 11:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae * NPC's still drop T1 loot (I heard rumour that in Dominion this will end) Interesting propaganda. Care to link the thread? First I've heard of it at any rate. Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae * Players think that their mined minerals are free and they do not give any value to them (this will never change) Actually find very few miners who think like this - and if they do they don't sell anything beyond frigates. Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae and because those problems - you can skip the building part and just buy cheap, relist high. This is definately profitable, yes; but as long as you think before you act, you can add yet more profit on top of it. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
W3370Pi4 Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.26 12:23:00 - [26] Edited by: W3370Pi4 on 26/10/2009 12:24:30 t1 manufacturing is pretty much annoying however t2 manufacturing if done with some sort of plan can get you rich _______ Join The"Legit Trading" channel
uperkurk	Posted - 2009.10.26 13:26:00 - [27] Alot of people dont think the minerals are free but you often make more profit if you mine the minerals yourself and do the math, would you make more to just sell them minerals or would you make more to use the minerals to build something. For example. I mine 1million units of trit that by itself would sell for 2.5m or I use that trit and build 10 items that each sell for 500k. So you end up with 2.5m isk more if you build the item rather then just sell the trit. Take into thought the cost of all the other minerals needed and then do the math.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.10.26 14:05:00 - [28] T1 is profitable IF you have the right setup... I Mass produced T1 and sold in 3 Stations all two jumps from each other (Like a triangle) I produced T1 Expendable Items, ALL OF THEM. I purchased my minerals from the local market which was always a little higher then Jita price apart from Trit usually spot on Jita price. Is T1 Manufacturing profitable? - YES, I made on average 40% margin, margins ranged from 20% to 350% (No kidding) Can T1 Manufacturing be done without Mining yourself? - YES, with the right products people will pay anything (Notice above I said 350%) How long can T1 Manufacturing remain profitable? - I ran that setup for a good 6-7 months without change in profits every week between 100-300mil ISK profit. Would I submit to an audit to prove it's profitable? - My wallet ran out and I lost my EMMA history in a Harddrive failure. However I have this - Screen shot of EMMA Quarterly Report, I didn't start until Mid way though November 2008, you can see what I purchased and started making sales, the following months show the real profit, the purchases in the first Quarter are mineral to build replacement of what is sold. Over all it represents a 2,373,211,737.05 ISK Profit, 600mil per month. What the screen shot doesn't tell you is I had over 4B ISK worth of marketing and inventory still unsold. If I actually put effort into it instead of 15-30 minutes every few days, I could have moved the slow moving products, setup sell orders in a much larger region, or more heavy traffic. I literally only worked for a PLEX a month and that's all I needed. I did consider this passive income due to the time requirements. 600mil might not sound like a lot and it's not, but 600mil a month for maybe 6hours work a month is a lot. There was LOTS of room for expansion even in that region, there was opportunity to be more active on the market playing 0.01 wars which I did only when I was online for those 30 minutes. If I put time and effort into it, it could easily be 2-2.5B profit a month. Just like everything in EVE, the harder you work, the more reward you get. Amarr for Life
Milo Melano	Posted - 2009.10.26 16:04:00 - [29] I haven't traded materials in jita, but from trading modules, I know that it takes time penny uppping and downing your orders to actually get fills. I no long term expert but I have managed to make a couple billion trading part time in my first 6 months of mostly pvp play. I haven't done any mining either on any of my accounts either. I could see how some people might not like the process of changing buy and sell orders every 5 minutes or less (you can use mutiple standing orders in the same commodity and roll them forward a minute apart or something to avoid the 5 minute wait rule). They might find mining while watching tv less distracting and more soothing than trading, and so, mining their own mats and using an internal accounting at the lower price end is fairly rational (especially if they can be patient sellers and wait for the price to move to them when they put their items for sale and not need to monitor the markets on the sell side) Neither activity is fun for me. The idea of a passive income for accounts I'd only sign onto once a day might have some interest but I'm not sure if its worth the sp and isk investment and really make that much more with the time than slow trading in some off market with that same amount of time. If you have more time you can always make more isk.
Rowhan	Posted - 2009.10.26 16:17:00 - [30] Edited by: Rowhan on 26/10/2009 16:22:47 Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae Problems are, * NPC's still drop T1 loot (I heard rumour that in Dominion this will end) * Players think that their mined minerals are free and they do not give any value to them (this will never change) and because those problems - you can skip the building part and just buy cheap, relist high. The droped T1 loot is just a fraction of what you get from salvaging. What I do not understand is that sometimes the salvage you get is worth more than the NPC ship you destroyed. Overall, the larger the ship though, the better chances of getting more expensive salvage. On the manufacturing subject, I am not an experienced manufacturer, but if manufacture goods and sell in the same station you manufacture, are you not loosing on better sale opportunities where the price of your goods could be sold at twice the price? Would it not be worth manufacturing goods where there are abundance in minerals where the prices are lower and close to a market where these goods are lacking? In other words, don't plant bananas in Canada and sell them in Brazil.

Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.10.26 16:53:00 - [31] Originally by: uperkurk Alot of people dont think the minerals are free but you often make more profit if you mine the minerals yourself and do the math, would you make more to just sell them minerals or would you make more to use the minerals to build something. For example. I mine 1million units of trit that by itself would sell for 2.5m or I use that trit and build 10 items that each sell for 500k. So you end up with 2.5m isk more if you build the item rather then just sell the trit. Take into thought the cost of all the other minerals needed and then do the math. That's the smart way to do it. Value added to the minerals when producing. Others, the "minerals I mined are free" crowd don't do the math and take their 2.5 Mil worth of minerals and produce and sell 2 Mil worth of product. Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae * NPC's still drop T1 loot (I heard rumour that in Dominion this will end) And as most rumors, is not true, unless you have some inside information that has not been released; but no, people have been mulling about this on the forums for as long as I've been playing Eve. Even if they stopped dropping T1 loot, I wouldn't expect the prices of those items to sky rocket. As a missioner, I reprocess all of my T1 loot, even most named loot, except for the Large Guns and Heavy items. Most of the smaller T1 stuff is just not worth it to try to sell.
Tichirxes	Posted - 2009.10.26 21:10:00 - [32] Edited by: Tichirxes on 26/10/2009 21:12:41 There is an important lesson that is only briefly touched on by a couple people here in regards to basic economic principal... The value of what you are doing (profitable vs. non-profitable) is determined by your next best alternative. This is the god of investment! (capital, time, land, labor, etc.) Everything you allocate your ISK towards in Eve is a form of investment and diversity is ALWAYS they key to successful investment. Eventually EVERYTHING fails, one of the few guaranteed things in economics. Being able to avoid those failures and reallocate your investment to something else is the key to not failing with it. You will only be relatively safe in success when you can move easily from one part of the market to another when one fails. Example: When there is a flood of mined resources on the market (resource prices drop), being able to switch from mining to manufacturing is key. When resources become more scarce on the market (prices go up), being able to switch back to mining is key. Basically, if you only focus on one aspect of the market, the only guarantee is that you will eventually fail. True, Eve has little to no repercussions for failure, this is what causes the "Players think that their mined minerals are free and they do not give any value to them (this will never change)" problem. So you have to consider that anything short of success = failure (there is no "stay the same" option, stay the same = failure).
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.26 22:16:00 - [33] Originally by: lm89 Hey Breaker, so the key is buy orders for the minerals? At present my calculations have incorporated Jita prices for the minerals, because i didn't realize anyone was wanting to sell any lower . Yes people sell to buy orders. They either want the ISK now or don't want the hassle of watching their orders to make sure they are the lowest so they sell.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.10.26 23:47:00 - [34] Originally by: voogru You'll make more ISK with 1 level 4 mission than you would make in a month of productiong of t1 stuff. The reason is simple, you are competing with players that probably mine the minerals themselves, so they think that the minerals are free. You're better off trading, buying their cheap modules and relisting them for profit. This is one of the biggest myths in Eve tbh.
lm89	Posted - 2009.10.27 07:52:00 - [35] hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for all the help- which it has been. i am now ready to go do some serious market research- cheers!


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