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Daenarys
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Posted - 2009.10.28 10:37:00 -
[1]
are anything being done about these? I keep petitioning but nothing seems to be done. Possibly because I can't give an exact name, but it is at times prohibitely expensive to buy and find out.
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quygen
Minmatar
Acting Neutral
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Posted - 2009.10.28 11:15:00 -
[2]
Read first, then detemine if you still have questions
Question about bots
Q
Please resize your sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal
^
You seen it CCP =) Now go fix! |
Lt Forge
Pilots From Honour
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.10.28 11:15:00 -
[3]
It's, though annoying, legal.
Just live with it and check the Buy Orders first before selling your silly item.
_____________
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Daenarys
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Posted - 2009.10.28 11:21:00 -
[4]
So one guy says macroers get banned, other says macroing is legal;
All I can see is petitioned bots doesn't dissappear - and I keep losing out on isk, or at the very least, hair.
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RaTTuS
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.10.28 12:45:00 -
[5]
if they are bots they will get pumped, just becase you think they are bots does not make them so
--
3 Titans Lottery
EB | Capital |
NoLimit Soldier
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Posted - 2009.10.28 13:13:00 -
[6]
Yea because some people like me get to play this at work and stare at the orders all day. Is it an unfair advantage? Maybe, but you know what: Life isn't fair.
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Daenarys
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Posted - 2009.10.28 16:08:00 -
[7]
Great, you have a job.
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Aurorae Andromedae
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Posted - 2009.10.28 16:22:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Daenarys
are anything being done about these? I keep petitioning but nothing seems to be done. Possibly because I can't give an exact name, but it is at times prohibitely expensive to buy and find out.
You mean the other 100 station traders updating all their orders every 4 minutes? 
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Dramaticus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.28 16:46:00 -
[9]
yes its perfectly reasonable for a character to update its order every two and a half minutes for 23 hours straight i see nothing wrong with this it couldnt be a bot.
Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.28 17:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dramaticus
yes its perfectly reasonable for a character to update its order every two and a half minutes for 23 hours straight i see nothing wrong with this it couldnt be a bot.
1) Impossible. There's a limit to updating orders at 5 minutes now.
2) Impossible to prove.
Assumption: You know that it is the same person upping the order each time. Pretty reasonable. A lot of times you can tell.
To prove with the tools that you have you would have to watch the order 23/7. That involves you, at the very least, refreshing your window every 5 minutes. If there is a macro it wouldn't up the order by 0.01 ISK unless there is another order above it. This would mean you would need to up an order by 0.01 ISK every five minutes, as well, to see if the other one does.
So to prove:
Step 1: Create your own order 0.01 ISK above (or below, if sell) the opponent.
Step 2: Repeat step 1 for 23 hours (preferably 23/7 for full proof), observing the other order to make sure it is updated once every five minutes.
By proving that the opoonent was a bot, by observing his actions with the tools available to you, you have just proven that you are also a bot, since you had to mimic the bot in order to prove it.
Conclusion: It is impossible for you to claim that an opponent updates his orders every 5 minutes by 0.01 ISK unless you also do it. It is impossible for you to observe this over 23 hours unless you also engage in this activity for 23 hours. Thereby, if you try, you have also proven that you are a bot.
Only CCP has the tools to examine the behavior, but that behavior in itself proves nothing. I myself have sat at the same few orders for half an hour to an hour, updating every five minutes by 0.01 ISK, partly to see what would happen, partly because it was a good deal. But I am not a bot. (I don't do that any more, but it was fun to try at the time.)
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Milo Melano
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Posted - 2009.10.28 17:33:00 -
[11]
you can effectively update your buy orders more frequently than every 5 minutes by having multiple buy orders in the same product.
Doing it 23 hours a day would be unlikely... and following too many items would be hard, but, if like real life pit traders, you're only watching a few items, it could be pretty doable.
Don't forget, that other parts of the game require fairly similar attention. A lot of roaming pvp requires that you watch local or watch for gate fire for long periods waiting for a change to react.
After a few months, I realized that given the pace of game play and the way most people played, that playing with two clients up was almost the norm to keep enough things going on to keep you engrossed... so I drank the coolaid and did it. I've got a 4 year old computer and it handles it fine... I had invested in a second decent monitor 8 years ago so no cost there either. The power of two, 6 months for 50$ and switching over to a 3 month billing period made kept having two accounts to fairly reasonable gaming monthly expense. (sure cheaper than other monthly bills and I enjoy it).
I guess, if I keep up my trading learning curve I'll build up knowledge and isk that will let me pay for a couple plexes a month to pay for the accounts and still generate another billions for game purposes.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.28 17:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Milo Melano
you can effectively update your buy orders more frequently than every 5 minutes by having multiple buy orders in the same product.
True. But (a) the person I quoted mentioned updating "a" order every 2.5 minutes, not multiples and (b) observing someone else updating two or more orders leap frogging on the same product would be even more difficult than just one. At that point you can't be sure it's the same person unless you actually buy from/sell to all the orders, which would only encourage a real trader...
But I see the point of your post was actually enforcing my point, that a real person could easily be doing what is observed.
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Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.10.28 18:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
But I see the point of your post was actually enforcing my point, that a real person could easily be doing what is observed.
It gets very suspicious though if someone is always displaying that behavior at exactly the same time that you are online trying to do your thing. Let's face it, market bots exist and the ppl using them oughta be ****. 
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.28 18:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
But I see the point of your post was actually enforcing my point, that a real person could easily be doing what is observed.
It gets very suspicious though if someone is always displaying that behavior at exactly the same time that you are online trying to do your thing. Let's face it, market bots exist and the ppl using them oughta be ****.
Suspicious, sure. Not nearly out of the realm of possibility that there is someone out there playing at the same time as you on the same items. Or several someones, since you can't check unless you buy from them each time you log on that it is the same person.
I'm not denying that they exist.  It's just impossible to prove. I have no problem if you get upset with these bots out there, I'm just saying you can't be sure and you can't expect CCP to do anything directly about those accounts, as they can't be sure either.
(I say directly, because they can observe activities such as this over time from many accounts to recognize patterns and perhaps make an educated guess, like with Unholy Rage.)
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Decidivus Jones
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Posted - 2009.10.29 01:34:00 -
[15]
If you're absolutely certain it's a bot, then place your buy order at 0.01 below the lowest sell order. If the bot raises it .01 and automatically buys the sell order, you've both proven your point and found a way to get rid of them. Pretty big if, though...
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Daenarys
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Posted - 2009.10.29 16:51:00 -
[16]
This never was meant as a discussion wether these exist or not. They do. 30seconds - 3 minutes response time 23/7 over a period of several days, there doesn't exist (a single) person being able of doing that. I don't have to change my orders every 5 minutes to check this, once or twice every couple of hours throughout the day will prove exactly the same.
They also aren't quite as exploitable as the people who haven't yet encountered one likes to believe. They seem to be given a parameter of which price range to operate in, ignoring orders above/below a certain price. It is completely possible to make the bot completely ignore you and instead 0.01 isk the order below yours, if you took the time to find that limit. Most of the time it's still not in my interest to buy/sell at those prices though, so it's hardly an acceptable solution.
Particularly with the selling of low-volume, high value items the effect of these bots are devastating on non botters. They really need to go away.
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Vadimik
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.29 21:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Daenarys
stuff...
See, it's win\win for you, since you can cry bots all you want, even if non of the people you claim bots are bots, you will not suffer any penalty.
And that's too bad.
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Joel McBeth
Caldari
JJ Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.30 13:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Joel McBeth on 30/10/2009 13:11:46
Dretzle is obviously running a market bot, all of his post should be ignored.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.30 13:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Joel McBeth
Edited by: Joel McBeth on 30/10/2009 13:11:46
Dretzle is obviously running a market bot, all of his post should be ignored.
Heh, sure, okay. A guy who shies away from even using spreadsheets to automate his Eve must be running a bot. 
Even if that were true, the argument stands on its own.
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clixor
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Posted - 2009.10.31 11:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Daenarys
This never was meant as a discussion wether these exist or not. They do. 30seconds - 3 minutes response time 23/7 over a period of several days, there doesn't exist (a single) person being able of doing that. I don't have to change my orders every 5 minutes to check this, once or twice every couple of hours throughout the day will prove exactly the same.
i had the same questions and did a little research myself. What i found out that they do exist but i'm guessing they are used only on a very small scale and were individually developed.
Apparently CCP 'allows' the OCR bots until reported. On the other hand, due to the complexity involved they need to be tweaked constantly and can't be that effective although a few probably are.
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Azirapheal
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.10.31 12:13:00 -
[21]
isnt it possible to abuse bots tendencies by crashing them out the bottom and buying them out? :P
Originally by: Azirapheal
i never ever thought id live to see the day.... that titans were nerfed for being FOTM HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
SoonÖ
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clixor
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Posted - 2009.11.01 10:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Azirapheal
isnt it possible to abuse bots tendencies by crashing them out the bottom and buying them out? :P
Do you think that people who are smart enough to program such pretty complex stuff will overlook such a thing?
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Camios
Minmatar
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.11.01 15:14:00 -
[23]
If you are trading small stuff, you can **** the macros.
Example: Zydrine. If you put on the market some sell orders for 1 piece of zydrine you can drive the macro mad to very low prices, so that you can make him lose very much money.
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