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Rhen Ayases Ideas to fix Rockets

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Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.04 09:54:00 - [1] Hey, its not really new that rockets are pretty weak for now. with 10 km range on 2 frigs mwding the real range gets to like 2km. and even if they hit the damage is so low you shieldtank it with a 2 shield/sec rate sometimes. So here are some ideas to tweak them: Changes to Rocket Launchers: Half the RoF to make it possible to spam rockets really hard (4.0 -> 2.0 on unbonused t1 launcher) Double Capacity to also load double the rockets inside the ship (0.15 -> 0.3 on t1 launcher, 0.2->0.4 in t2 launcher) Change the overload to 15% missile damage instead of rof (as we already got enough with that change) Changes to Rockets: Lower damage by 40% (25 to 15 on unbonused t1 rockets) with the rof bonus it already results in a 20% damage boost double their speed (2250 to 4500 on unbonused t1 rockets) give them quite a range boost, but more: they can catch up with frigs lower the flighttime by 25% (2 to 1,5 on unbonused t1 rockets) to compensate the range boost on speed a little half their volume (0.005 to 0.0025 on t1 rockets) with the already bigger vault on the launchers, and the greater rof, this gives them a reasonable capacity overall triple the explosion velocity (85 to 250 on t1 rockets) i mean really... what frigs fly with 85 m/s? with mwd or ab it even gets worse, thats why most rockets just suck ass against frigs, as a frig weapon you hardly can fit 2 webbers to pin the other one down... Rocket Ship Bonus: [list] Anathema change the 5% rocket damage bonus into 15% em rocket damage, to get the amarr specific bonus more in front and boost the damage a little better Heretic with the new rockets this ship should be a reasonable rocket destroyer, so i dont think it need much tweaks Vengeance change the 5% damage bonus into a rof bonus, Macross Missile Massacre incoming, and if we ever get a 4th assault frig bonus, make it 10% bonus to explosion velocity Malediction change the rocket bonus into a speedbonus of 10% per level, interceptors are fast... the rockets need to be faster other ships like caldari get most bonus for all missiles or rockets and standard ones anyway, so with the general tweaks i think they are pretty much strong enough -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Kara Sharalien	Posted - 2009.11.04 09:56:00 - [2] this thread gets my 100% complete approval. rockets do need a boost, and i would love to see that boost take the form of ROF and range rather then just plain damage. i sadfased ages ago when the t2 javlin rockets range dropped from 20km to 12. would be good to see it go up a bit again. Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
Azheri Amarr TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:38:00 - [3] The numbers im not to sure about since i havent done any calculations but i can agree on that rockets need a real boost and are subpar as they are in their current state. Ayases suggestions seems good at first glance though and have my support.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:43:00 - [4] As per the other (long ignored) threads in the assembly hall and test server feedback PLEASE FIX THE ROCKETS ALREADY
Khalin Gwah	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:49:00 - [5] Again, not sure on the figures but fixing rockets might mean I use them again. Good post :)
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:04:00 - [6] the speed bonus on the malediciton is meant to missile velocity, not the ship :> and i think explo velocty should be enough at 150-200 (so kinda 2-2,35x of the actuall base) because with the skills it already get pretty good, with 250 on a heretic you dont get issues against 1km/s frigs on ab or 4km/s on mwd intis. so a little to much maybe jsut to summarize: * 20% overall dps (double rof while lowering base dmg by 40%) * 4x amount of rockets in the launcher (to compensate the really low clipsize now and the even greater rof) * 50% more range (lowering flighttime a little but double speed) * 2-2.5x explosion velocity: so that this anti frig weapon already can hit moving frigs! -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Grarr Bexx	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:06:00 - [7] CCP doesn't like it when they have stuff go below 2s ROF. No Macross missile barrage, server has to cope in some way
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:29:00 - [8] with t2 all lvl5 and 1 bcu i already can hit 1.97 :> add another bcu and it is below 1.8... now overload it and we hit 1.5 :p i never heard of such a problem... but if so its up to ccp anyway. maybe leave the rof and raise the damage by 20% instead or something like that. its a suggestion and not a "take this as it stands or leave it alone" -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Raeni Le'sex Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.11.04 14:48:00 - [9] Rather than increase the rocket bonus on anathema, remove it. Also give the tristan a rocket bonus so rockets dont loose one ship. Reasoning, probe ships done need bonuses to weapons they wont use, tristan is a dual weapon platform, might aswell get a bonus.
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.05 07:41:00 - [10] well, then please make another post, i just focuse here on rockets and on ships with a rocket bonus. that covops mostly dont even got a slot to fit something offensive (2 high, with probe launcher and covops cloak) is another story. noone say i want this ideas 1:1 used by ccp. but at least rockets need to be fixed and some bonuses too (malediction for example really needs some range for example). but this thread is for rockets now :> -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Dharh Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:04:00 - [11] Edited by: Dharh on 05/11/2009 08:05:07 I think you need to re think your numbers. The standard rockets should stay 2250m/s with 2s flight time, but the advanced anti-ship rockets should bump up to 3375m/s 2s flight time. While the long range rockets should drop down to 2250m/s with 4s flight time. Other than that methink you are missunderstanding what rockets are for and instead should be using missiles if you want to fire at further than 3-4km. Rockets are meant to fired at much closer range than any of the other types. Maybe the explosive velocity needs to be upped as well, dunno, would need to see test to tell if changing the speed and flight times wasn't a good enough improvement.
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:10:00 - [12] the explosion velocity is the mainthing why rockets suck and they need far more speed, my idea gives them 50% more range (from 10 to 15) the way missiles work, the real range is still under 10km if not both frigs play sitting ducks. -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Dharh Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:13:00 - [13] Then make your idea less complicated and just focus on the speed/flight time and the explosive velocity. Everything else just confuses the issue.
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:22:00 - [14] those are just two main problems, clipsize is a problem too -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:35:00 - [15] still in need! :> -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.12.10 22:05:00 - [16] I actually kinda like this idea, but the RoF might get a bit, I dunno, excessive? Not saying it wouldn't be pure awesome to see them streaming out of my ship like that but 2s on an unbonused unnamed? With my skills and a BCU T2 launchers fire off a rocket every 2 seconds , if they got that kind of RoF reduction... ow. Besides that petty issue - supported! I really like the changes you've made and can't see any real fault with them.
Sanctus Maleficus Lambent Enterprises	Posted - 2009.12.10 22:56:00 - [17] Love the idea. I've always loved the idea of the Vengeance, but with one AF having only 1 mid slot (which is fantastic, in certain situations), and the other being useless for dps, Amarr AFs leave much to be desired.
Drajh Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.12.11 00:55:00 - [18] +1 from me
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.11 13:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus Love the idea. I've always loved the idea of the Vengeance, but with one AF having only 1 mid slot (which is fantastic, in certain situations), and the other being useless for dps, Amarr AFs leave much to be desired. at least the vengeance is a bulky tackler that can take a few shots for now, and the retri is a neat fast mission ship for lvl1-3, but yeah its one of the ideas to make them more useful. -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Stygian Knight Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.12.11 14:11:00 - [20] +1 make rockets a weapon
Vuoto	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:43:00 - [21] why do not make them fire 2-3 rockets at time?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.12.11 17:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Vuoto why do not make them fire 2-3 rockets at time? Because tripling the damage would do the same thing with less lag.
Ebanni Ebanni Mercantile	Posted - 2009.12.11 18:12:00 - [23] The real fix is to just get rid of rockets altogether and make Standards a bit easier to fit on frigs by giving the frigs a bonus to handle the fitting. Hell, CCP made it easy to put torpedoes on SB's (and cruise missiles, before that, if you've been playing that long) so it's not like such tweaking hasn't been done before to allow for unconventional launcher fits on frigates. Sure, some folks have highly researched rocket BPO's, maybe even a rare T2 BPO... oh well.
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.12.11 19:12:00 - [24] Looks like a ressonable ideia, at least it adress all the issues with rockets now. Personaly I disagree with the proposed anathema bonus (weapons in a covert ops frigate?) since it dont scale well with the other rocket ships and malediction bonus because missile velocity bonus its 'caldari thing' IMO, if the rocket its not enough for that ship role raise it or change the ship weapon system(i prefer the former opff course) Doubling the speed of rocket its a bit problematic since it will be faster than lights, maybe a smaller increase coupled a increase (or no change) in fligth time wold be a better aproach. (or just ignore the 'patern' and fix the damm weapons system :P) And whille we are at this if nescessary remove the only advantage rocket have rigth now: small fitting requirments. I prefer to have to use fitting modules, like i usually have if I want to fit standard (hint, hint), than using a weapon sytstem that suck without it. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.12 00:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Ebanni The real fix is to just get rid of rockets altogether and make Standards a bit easier to fit on frigs by giving the frigs a bonus to handle the fitting. Hell, CCP made it easy to put torpedoes on SB's (and cruise missiles, before that, if you've been playing that long) so it's not like such tweaking hasn't been done before to allow for unconventional launcher fits on frigates. Sure, some folks have highly researched rocket BPO's, maybe even a rare T2 BPO... oh well. rockets should be the short range missile equivalent to heavy assault/torps. so faster shooting as the long range variant, for more dps and no option to change their sig radius. so i doubt taking out rockets is "the idea" :p and for pan dora: doubling the speed istn much, cruise missiles are already that fast, but they should be able to catch frigs too. its a anti frig weapon after all and in pvp you rarly fight ab frigs (i dont say never! just rarely...). missile velocity is caldari thing? so the heretic is a caldari ship now? its a rocket ship with velocity bonus to rockets, think about it ;p and rockets the advantage of the low fitting requeriments isnt enough, you still rarley fitted them... as they just dont have any use at all. last but not least: the anathema is a covops and dont need fighting bonus, thats true, but that would count for all the covops anyway, still they got bonus -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Lady Australia	Posted - 2009.12.12 16:17:00 - [26] everyone including CCP know rockets/(missiles in general) need looking at in certain areas, namely explosion radius/velocity for smalls and pure flight time for capitals (in which phoenix have become next to useless for anything other than shooting large towers) call it a gut instinct, but im really hoping the reason CCP have held back on fixing rockets is because they are planning a whole new fix for missiles in general, but maybe thats just my caldari fanboi radar on....
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2009.12.13 04:40:00 - [27] Originally by: Rhen Ayase ... I was going to reply to your less-than-perfect proposal point by point, but it's easier just to say it's a very bad idea to come up with solutions when you clearly don't understand the mechanics of the problems. Do your research as to why your solutions are flawed, then try again. However, if you do enough research (like I have) you will find out two things: 1. Fixing missiles (not just rockets) would require a significant overhaul, nearly a re-write of the entire system. 2. People will be extremely opposed to this, as they're ignorant of how deep the problems really go (they choose not to find out why), and they don't want the game to change by such a degree. By putting the above into practice, it's best to just save the effort and never suggest anything. It will fall upon deaf ears, and it will drain you of all your energy. So for your own good, just play the damn game and accept the fact that missiles will be broken until such a time when the whole of the playerbase realizes what needs to be done. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Rhen Ayase Imperial Crusade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.13 23:36:00 - [28] well, missiles are fine they have advantages and disadvantages, and they are the most used weapon against rats. so i am ignorant? or maybe you are the ignorant one? whoever knows. but what most people aggre: rockets just suck, even with 25% ship bonus you are better off just fitting autocannons or if your cap can handle it blaster/pulses. because its just near impossible to hit other frigs with them and they do less damage too. so this are ideas from me, noone said the wholeconcept must be all or nothing. its up to ccp what they do, if they say rof is fine they dont need to change it, if they say clipsize is fine, they dont need to change it. but what we aggree: rockets need a change to have some use at all! -------------------------------------- Slave and Property of Kathryn Dougans.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2009.12.14 03:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Rhen Ayase well, missiles are fine they have advantages and disadvantages, and they are the most used weapon against rats. It's not about advantages and disadvantages, it's about fundamental flaws. Them being by far the most used against rats is but one symptom of it. Quote: so i am ignorant? or maybe you are the ignorant one? whoever knows. Your comments regarding explosion velocity and practical range tell the tale quite well. Whether you educate yourself or not is not my concern, but logic dictates you must understand the problem before you can make an attempt to correct it. Quote: but what most people aggre: rockets just suck, even with 25% ship bonus you are better off just fitting autocannons or if your cap can handle it blaster/pulses. because its just near impossible to hit other frigs with them and they do less damage too. Not only do most people agree on this, but simple logic agrees as well. A 50% raw damage increase is almost indisputable, and the missile velocity is indeed too low. However, your proposals on how to fix them both bring in yet even more complications, and are not plausible. ____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does.
Halycon Gamma Caldari The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.12.14 05:42:00 - [30] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Rhen Ayase ... I was going to reply to your less-than-perfect proposal point by point, but it's easier just to say it's a very bad idea to come up with solutions when you clearly don't understand the mechanics of the problems. Do your research as to why your solutions are flawed, then try again. However, if you do enough research (like I have) you will find out two things: 1. Fixing missiles (not just rockets) would require a significant overhaul, nearly a re-write of the entire system. 2. People will be extremely opposed to this, as they're ignorant of how deep the problems really go (they choose not to find out why), and they don't want the game to change by such a degree. By putting the above into practice, it's best to just save the effort and never suggest anything. It will fall upon deaf ears, and it will drain you of all your energy. So for your own good, just play the damn game and accept the fact that missiles will be broken until such a time when the whole of the playerbase realizes what needs to be done. Okay, I'll bite. Whats broken about them, the whole long winded explanation, and why does that require a ground up rewrite. Keep in mind, I'm not saying I don't think missile mechanics are beyond messed up; for the record, they are. But, hey.. if you're going to trash an idea, either tell him exactly why or give him a counter idea, along with why you think yours is better. Also, I'm genuinely interested. I've read some of your ideas before, and while I don't agree with some of it.. I must have missed your idea for a completely rewritten missile system.

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