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Louiss Kimplar
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Posted - 2009.11.06 00:59:00 -
[1]
I'm just curious. What do you believe is a reasonable salary to pay a player to run manufacturing slots. I'm just refering to running manufacturing slots, not having to move any resources or collect materials or mining, just starting 4 or 5 manufacturing jobs every few days?
Just curious what the community though.
Thank you for your replies.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Life is Experience
New Eden Hardware Emporium
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Posted - 2009.11.06 01:03:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Louiss Kimplar
I'm just curious. What do you believe is a reasonable salary to pay a player to run manufacturing slots. I'm just refering to running manufacturing slots, not having to move any resources or collect materials or mining, just starting 4 or 5 manufacturing jobs every few days?
Just curious what the community though.
Thank you for your replies.
Surely a percentage of the profit. Not the actual turnover of the isk involved, just the profit.
Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread full batch manufacturing
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Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2009.11.06 04:21:00 -
[3]
For most people, a slot is worth around 1b/month minimum if they're running the jobs themselves. So, figure how much "doing the work" is worth to that person, subtract it from that minimum, and you've got your number.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.11.06 11:59:00 -
[4]
Lui Kai- that's a ridiculous figure for a single build slot. If all they have to do is start jobs every few days (longer the better, as it's less work), then 1m isk per slot per day is quite enough for most people with spare capacity.
How you arrived at a figure of 1bn isk per month (almost 1.4m isk per slot-hour) is beyond me. Most activities make far less, and most at the level you mention tend to be very high risk or at best highly volatile.
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34.4:1 mineral compression
ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.11.06 12:38:00 -
[5]
I'm with Kazuo on that one. At their peak, I valued a slot at 5000 isk profit per minute, but a 1 billion per month fee for a slot is about 23k ISK per minute.
aybe if you're manufacturing an extremely popular T2 ship BPO that's the case, but for your average T1 manufacturing you're lucky to see 500 ISK/Minute.
You can strike it lucky with rigs and that sorta thing, but that's not something you can generate a long term plan on, let alone stay within sales volume manufacturing that sort of thing across 10 slots continuously.
If the person wanted my slots to manufacture items for market for profit, I really don't think any wage would be sufficient unless the person was really lazy. If I were to be paid by the CEO of a corporation for my slots to supply that corp, I'd expect 2500 ISK per minute per slot (or 108 million a month per slot)
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Darcon Kylote
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
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Posted - 2009.11.06 14:36:00 -
[6]
You can't put a price on it because it's wildly different in terms of what it is worth to different people. I am a nut about my slots, I almost lose sleep if they are idle. So at full capacity, I would imagine each of my slots is worth about 150mil/month.
I have several corpmates fully capable of building t1 or t2 stuff, but choose not to, with slots lying idle. So those are worth exactly nothing to those guys (apparently). Or at least worth less than the effort required to use them.
But if I am already fully using my slots on my own, what benefit is there to me (financially), by producing for the corp instead? How can we make more money working together than doing in our own?
The only anwser I've ever found to that one is investing in shared BPO resources, for t2 stuff and capital ships. I just don't see the benefit in anything smaller than that. Maybe T3, but that gets caught up in the whole living in the wormhole thing and shared farming/infrastructure/logistics costs.
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Terminal Impact is recruiting PVPers for fun ops in NPC 0.0 space. Visit our website or join ingame channel "the tict pub". |
Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2009.11.06 17:14:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lui Kai on 06/11/2009 17:23:40
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
How you arrived at a figure of 1bn isk per month (almost 1.4m isk per slot-hour) is beyond me. Most activities make far less, and most at the level you mention tend to be very high risk or at best highly volatile.
Been running 32 slots for the last 6 months straight with that as a minimum. Granted, small time frame, but before that I was alt-less.
But note you said he could get quite less "for people with spare capacity" - which I agree with, and pointed out in my original post.
Edit to add: Just ran the numbers. Right now, even just building ravens to suicide nets more than the amounts being discussed here.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.11.06 23:03:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Edit to add: Just ran the numbers. Right now, even just building ravens to suicide nets more than the amounts being discussed here.
Then your numbers are wrong, or you're factoring some part of your manufacturing process as "free"
Huh,, well what'ya know.
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Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2009.11.07 03:06:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
Edit to add: Just ran the numbers. Right now, even just building ravens to suicide nets more than the amounts being discussed here.
Then your numbers are wrong, or you're factoring some part of your manufacturing process as "free"
Huh,, well what'ya know.
The Lui is never wrong. Do not doubt the Lui.
And I think we can agree from personal experiences that suiciding a tier 2 battleship for profit is hardly working one's lines to their maximum value. So I stand beside my earlier statements.
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Louiss Kimplar
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Posted - 2009.11.07 03:16:00 -
[10]
I guess I'm really talking about people who have extra slots and few minutes or so a week to kill setting up jobs. I wouldn't really think manufactuing oriented people would be at all interested as they would just use the slots themselves and make more profit handling everything themselves. I'm just talking about someone who would have to log in every few days and spend a few minutes setting up factory runs with all the blueprints, raw materials, etc. already supplied and ready to go for the person.
I would think 100 million ISK a month is kinda of high for someone spending a few mintues clicking some buttons, at least it seems high to me.
Thank you for the replies, gives me some things to think about.
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Master Kent
Gallente
black-body
Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.07 13:48:00 -
[11]
contract me the mins and bps i be happy to provide the service 
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Sichuan Pepper
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Posted - 2009.11.07 23:40:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Sichuan Pepper on 07/11/2009 23:40:49
Think about it this way. For any serious manufacturing job, you'll need a person who will be tied down to your base, constantly running jobs for maximum profits (hopefully). That, I think is a lot to ask of someone. For anything less, in terms of slot usage, you might as well get/buy a manufacturing alt on the same account and use that. you'll save more money in the long run.
My corp is ran off profits. My builders and inventors get a % of the profit.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.11.08 00:52:00 -
[13]
Quote:
The Lui is never wrong. Do not doubt the Lui.
Heheh. Indeed.
That said, OP was asking:
Quote:
I'm just refering to running manufacturing slots, not having to move any resources or collect materials or mining, just starting 4 or 5 manufacturing jobs every few days?
That 23k ISK per minute also has some "cost" of your own time involved, and for my 50 available lines I think I'd sooner gouge my own eyes out or pay someone else to do all the shipping rather than transport that much minerals.
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Frezinviper
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.09 03:49:00 -
[14]
Paying someone to run slots more then 1m isk per slot per day is stupid... when you can just make an alt in less then 10 days to use 9 slots... then you have FREE manufacturing...
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m3rb3aSt
Minmatar
Advanced Component Research Enterprise
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 04:47:00 -
[15]
I had extra space on my moon reaction poses so I just threw on some assembly arrays. Works great too and the extra fuel needed is pretty much nothing.
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Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2009.11.09 06:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: m3rb3aSt
I had extra space on my moon reaction poses so I just threw on some assembly arrays. Works great too and the extra fuel needed is pretty much nothing.
We're talking about character-based manufacturing slots, not installation-based manufacturing slots.
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Elvid Tanz
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Posted - 2009.11.09 12:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Frezinviper
Paying someone to run slots more then 1m isk per slot per day is stupid... when you can just make an alt in less then 10 days to use 9 slots... then you have FREE manufacturing...
For simple T1 manufacturing even that may be a bit high. A PLEX costs a bit less than 300M isk right now, so you could set up a new account and train 3 alts up for 10 slots each in a couple months. 300M for 30 days is 10M per day, divided by 30 slots gives you 333k isk per slot per day. Of course, that is only for the slots. The time it takes to set up the jobs is certainly worth something, given how many clicks you need to set them up. Also, if you need more skills, say for T2 ship manufacturing, this calculation is not very relevant.
I guess the bottom line is: if they are slots that would normally be idle, then the fee can be relatively low. Otherwise, it should approximate what the person could make if they used it for their own jobs.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:53:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lui Kai
Edited by: Lui Kai on 06/11/2009 17:23:40
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
How you arrived at a figure of 1bn isk per month (almost 1.4m isk per slot-hour) is beyond me. Most activities make far less, and most at the level you mention tend to be very high risk or at best highly volatile.
Been running 32 slots for the last 6 months straight with that as a minimum. Granted, small time frame, but before that I was alt-less.
But note you said he could get quite less "for people with spare capacity" - which I agree with, and pointed out in my original post.
Edit to add: Just ran the numbers. Right now, even just building ravens to suicide nets more than the amounts being discussed here.
There are quite a few other activities leading to the final 1bn+ isk per slot-month figure here: the time it takes to insure and suicide the ships, the need for billion isk BPOs (or a supply of BPCs at about 1m isk per run), the time taken to get the minerals to a build location without weeks of queuing, and babysitting buy orders for materials.
I agree that in principle one shouldn't settle for anything less than one could get independently. For most people, though, this figure is rather lower. They have neither the time, the capital nor the inclination required to research and enact a lot of the more obscure, complex or large-scale possibilities end-to-end, and this leaves only the smaller, simpler, and cheaper ones for comparison. Because these are more accessible, the level of competition is higher and margins are tight. Thus, people tend to settle for much lower pay in return for being told exactly what they need to do as part of a larger venture, while still respecting the same guiding principle.
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34.4:1 mineral compression
ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:02:00 -
[19]
Paraphrasing us both.
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
...people will settle for less...
Originally by: Lui Kai
...find a broke new player or idiot who is incapable of using their slots effectively...
As acknowledged.
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
...suiciding ships is a damned lot of work...
As I said in game - suiciding ships is stupidly large amounts of work for stupidly little profit. It's not intended as the "this is ideal" example. It's intended as the "even something this ******ed is better than the craptacular numbers you're suggesting" example.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.11.10 14:42:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 10/11/2009 14:43:41
My point is that being 'better' in this context depends on whether you think that all the additional work and required justifies the increased returns. If that example is ruled out, you need to present a more accessible example to justify your 1bn+ isk per month figure.
One such example would be building off BPCs and selling on the market slightly below insurance value, focusing on the actual building and letting other people to do more of the work. I think that comes in about about 25-50% of your estimate.
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34.4:1 mineral compression
ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
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Sulg
Quicksilver Industries
Amici Noctis
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Posted - 2009.11.11 12:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Frezinviper
Paying someone to run slots more then 1m isk per slot per day is stupid... when you can just make an alt in less then 10 days to use 9 slots... then you have FREE manufacturing...
This sounds dangerously close to the idea of the, "If you mine your own ore, it's free," argument. Maybe I just haven't cleansed myself of that thread's fail though. Time is worth money, etc.
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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2009.11.12 00:40:00 -
[22]
The question is one I am considering as well. The "just get some alts" response doesn't answer the question for those of us interested in building actual corporations based around industrial pursuits.
What is a character's manufacturing (or Lab) slot worth?
If the corporation is providing all the materials, blueprints, and factory(/lab) (station cost or POS), the individual character is only providing the skills necessary to produce the end item. For T1 items, the skills are minimal (minimum standard of Production Efficiency V and Industry V) and universal for T1 items (Industry I). It doesn't matter if it is Thorn Rockets or Caldari Navy Ravens.
T1 manufacturing slots should have the same value across the board. Yes, based on the market building a Raven is different from building a Thorn Rocket, but the skill investment (training/education) is the same.
The T2 manufacturing chain immediately makes this more complicated, although not amazingly so. T2 Component manufacturing requires an additional set of skill investment above T1 and T2 item manufacturing varies depending on item type (module, rig, and class of ship). A manufacturing slot being used to build a Golem requires exceptional amount of skill investment versus someone manufacturing Quantum Microprocessors.
However the grades of T2 manufacturing also allow manufactures of differing skill levels to specialize their slots as a group and avoid having to work the market to build all the components for an end item.
The relatively new manufacturer may be part of multiple T2 projects building T1 components for all of them (at the same value/slot/time), with another manufacturer specialized in a particular races T2 components, and lastly someone is able to build the final product. This might be the exact same character all the way through, but the skills required (and therefore value) of each process is different.
The key throughout is that the corporation attempts to provide the materials and components for any of this construction at a very competitive rate.
For T1 manufacturing this can be as simple as buying Ore at a percentage less than the market value of the minerals (fx 85%, which can be higher than the value of the Ore), refining at near 100% (and paying the refiner some percentage, say 5%, cost 90%), and then providing the minerals below market (fx 95%) and BP (BPO access or BPC) to the manufacturer. The corporation can sell the tools to the manufacturer at market value (making a small profit, 5% mineral value) and the manufacturer can get all the profit from the finished good (markup+5% saved on minerals). Another option is that the corporation has a skilled salesman that reduces margins and maximizes item profit on the sales end. Some easy math 10X% the cost of minerals; 25% above what the corporation paid for the Ore with 5% for the refiner, 5% for the manufacturer, 5% for the salesman, and X% to the corporation. These should probably be adjusted. The refiner can refine as much Ore as you can give him in a few minutes all at once and the salesman has limited sell/buy orders.
In theory the T1 manufacturing slot should get 5¦2% of the items mineral value+factory cost standard, plus some profit sharing over a particular period (month/quarter).
T2 manufacturing chain will require much more thought.
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