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Erinn Sylvanus
NovaTech Universal
Intersteller Alliance
5
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Posted - 2012.06.14 12:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Relatively new player here (just approaching 3m SP), and I usually hang out with a couple of others that do a lot of mining in highsec. They are currently working toward an Orca and a Hulk. Their plans are to tank the Hulk and the Orca out (more concerned with surviving than yield).
I have concentrated almost entirely on combat and support (engineering/electronics/mechanics/drones) skills. Up until now, when I'm hanging out with them I usually just rat in the area.
I'd like to be prepared to support them more when they get into the Hulk/Orca about a month from now. What would be the best way that I could support them? Should I be training toward a Logistics ship, to help them survive against gankers? If so, what advice/recommendations would you give regarding that?
Note that I've mostly trained Gallente-type ships and armor-tanking skills thus far, if that matters. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
90
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 13:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Taking out an Orca in high sec with out agro would require a significant investment from any suciders because of the raw HP and Orca can have.
The Hulk however can be sucide ganked fairly easily. You can deter people from doing this by fitting a good tank on your hulk and also providing remote reps from another ship however this is fairly intensive and will not generate a good ISK/hr investment. Another option would be to have an insta locking support ship with ECM that could prevent any gankers who go GCC from destroying the hulk. Yet again this is fairly pointless unless you were guarding a fleet of Hulks. Which I suppose is an option.
If you had 10 or more hulks in a belt insta locking ECM or DPS is a good defence and can protect from suciders but not 100% of the time more so if they attack with multiple gankers at once. |
Erinn Sylvanus
NovaTech Universal
Intersteller Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 13:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
What about shield-repping the Hulk? Would that be worthwhile, or just a drop in the bucket to a Hulk that's got a decent tank and maybe even getting shield warfare linked (I think that's what its called) from the Orca? |
Sturmwolke
233
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 13:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's generally a waste of time and effort to standby a dedicated logistics ship for any gank attempts. You won't have the time to switch, even if you have it stored in the Orca's SMB.
On the flip-side, if you're almost guaranteed of bad company showing up at a known time/location, then yes, it's worth the effort.
You'd do better by :
a) Properly tanking all barges/exhumers (as best as possible within its limitations). Your goal is to survive sloppy attempts and make gankers spend more effort/resources to draw blood.
b) Keeping alert and warp away when you see several signature gank boats (Thrasher/Catalyst/Talos/Tornado) landing close.
c) Don't forget to maximize the tank on the Orca with proper shield tank + DCU + T2 Bulkheads. When miners forget this - tissue paper Orca goes boom.
Lastly, if you're bent on doing some sort of logistics work, T1 logis boats Osprey/Exequror makes nice starter standalone logis for shield/armor respectively.
You wont need much tank on those for the above purpose and they can be built as glass cannons. Skills needed are self explanatory.
P.S A note on repping mining barge/exhumers, they're better with a shield tank. In addition, shield repping starts immediately at the beginning of the cycle,
Armor repping starts at the end of the cycle and this is a weakness for the above circumstance.
P.P.S Also read the new devblog on mining barge changes.
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Erinn Sylvanus
NovaTech Universal
Intersteller Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 13:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:It's generally a waste of time and effort to standby a dedicated logistics ship for any gank attempts. You won't have the time to switch, even if you have it stored in the Orca's SMB.
I'd be in the ship all the time, not switching to it (if I do this).
Sturmwolke wrote:
You'd do better by :
a) Properly tanking all barges/exhumers (as best as possible within its limitations). Your goal is to survive sloppy attempts and make gankers spend more effort/resources to draw blood.
This means buffer tanks (high EHP), not active tanks (anything with shield boosters).
b) Keeping alert and warp away when you see several signature gank boats (Thrasher/Catalyst/Talos/Tornado) landing close.
c) Don't forget to maximize the tank on the Orca with proper shield tank + DCU + T2 Bulkheads. When miners forget this - tissue paper Orca goes boom.
a) Definitely they'll be tanking the Hulk
b) No afk'ing with this group, that I know of at least.
c) Definitely the plan to have the Orca tanked
Sturmwolke wrote:
P.P.S Also read the new devblog on mining barge changes.
Just did! Wow - it will be interesting to see how that changes things.
Thanks much for the advice. Basically, I'm trying to figure out how I can support this little group without resorting to mining myself or hauling. I'll do that if that's the best thing, but I'd rather focus on a more protective role. |
Karak Bol
Cable Innovations
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 17:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Get a cheap ship, maybe a griffin. Fit it with an ECM Burst and rigs that increase the ECM range. If you see a Gank squad drop, burst them. If you get the timing right, (between the first gankers shooting and the second locking up) you will jam part of the Hit squad. Alternatively, burst them while they drop. ECM Burst is an area of effect, it should efOh, and farm your sec status back up, because you will draw a GCC for jamming those helpless rocks. Try to learn the timing on Sisi before trying it at home. |
Zetaomega333
HIFI INDUSTRIAL
ROL.Citizens
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 23:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Drone boat, Train for this, Not only will you get extra dps, but the domi can put Remote reps on it, Rep drones, Guns, a whole slew of things but also be prepared for anything that might attack from using ecm drone to heavys to sentrys to lights. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
Assassin Confederacy
53
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 04:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Get a shield repping logi.
Have orca with power transfers on it.
Have hulks built for balanced/high resist.
Have hulks over heat when gankers show.
Orca powers logi, and logi reps hulks.
Done right it can rep a couple thousand dps!
Waste of time to do this in small groups.
Five hulks minimum. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 12:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
if you're dealing with destroyer gangs, RR can be effective. a tornado can alpha your hulk out of the belt, so no amount of RR will help there.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 14:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
It is uneconomic and totally ineffective to have another account running to provide 'combat support' and will not save your mining ships once gankers have arrived on top of your mining vessel. I have written a large piece of text detailing what I personally believe to be best policy in the 'Safe Mining' OP in this section if you wish to read that. The basic idea being that you watch local channel in a quiet system. Investigate everyone that enters the system reading through their bio & corp details. As a rule gankers stick out like something distasteful on the sole of your shoe. Usually either their corp details mention PvP or pirating directly. More often they will be in NPC corps so you can't wardec them. They aren't called gutless cowards for nothing. 
Btw if your Orca pilot is skilled up in 'links' then its worth sticking the shield link on to give extra resists instead of the mining capacitor one. Gives a decent extra bit of resist and EHP to the Hulk and a lot more to the Orca. Although a 160,000+ EHP Orca is unlikely to go down even in 0.5 . |
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Trappist Monk
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 19:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Taking out an Orca in high sec with out agro would require a significant investment from any suciders because of the raw HP and Orca can have.
The Hulk however can be sucide ganked fairly easily. You can deter people from doing this by fitting a good tank on your hulk and also providing remote reps from another ship however this is fairly intensive and will not generate a good ISK/hr investment. Another option would be to have an insta locking support ship with ECM that could prevent any gankers who go GCC from destroying the hulk. Yet again this is fairly pointless unless you were guarding a fleet of Hulks. Which I suppose is an option.
If you had 10 or more hulks in a belt insta locking ECM or DPS is a good defence and can protect from suciders but not 100% of the time more so if they attack with multiple gankers at once.
if you actually did this, you'd have to lock and fire after the gank began. In an alpha gank, you'd be useless. If you preemptively strike you get GCC and eventually go negative sec yourself. |
Trappist Monk
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 19:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Celgar Thurn wrote:They aren't called gutless cowards for nothing.
I'm not sure how you can call kamikazes cowards. It may be hard to believe, but some people don't do it "maliciously" to harvest your tears. Personally, i see hisec as the african savannah. you guys are zebras and i'm a cheetah. There is no good or bad, right or wrong, just predator and prey. |
Cap James Tkirk
Gung-HO Guns
Dead Rune Society
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 22:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
hi sec = african safari............. fail
low sec and null are more like african safari where the preadtors eat the prey hs is for thoes that are prey and wish to remain prey i understand you might think your a mighty predator but your just a fish in a bowl. come out to lawlessness and practice being a predator
i know i was a bear in hs for a long time but im shifting into better gears
im not saying your prey but a predator ehhhhhhh thats up for debate
(im not a predator im a toon) |
Jax Bederen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 00:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Yea, ok Predator, put down that pizza and get some fresh air. |
Kurfin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 05:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
In the current atmosphere I'd use a covetor rather than a hulk. There are no rewards for popping them, and if someone decides to blow you up anyway you've only lost a faction of what you'd lose if someone popped your hulk.
If they you think they may need 2 or 3 rounds to get the job done though a Falcon could work. If they are bringing enough alpha to one shot your mining buddies the best option would be a running a shield harmonizing warfare link, preferably on a vulture or tengu though that would be a lot of training, but can be run on any tech 1 battle cruiser. |
Smirky Dirk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 16:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cap James Tkirk wrote:hi sec = african safari............. fail
low sec and null are more like african safari where the preadtors eat the prey hs is for thoes that are prey and wish to remain prey i understand you might think your a mighty predator but your just a fish in a bowl. come out to lawlessness and practice being a predator
i know i was a bear in hs for a long time but im shifting into better gears
im not saying your prey but a predator ehhhhhhh thats up for debate
(im not a predator im a toon)
Low and null are not like the savannah, unless there's an army of gazelles and zebras with machine guns out on the plains. It isn't a Pixar or Disney film, as hard as that may be for the intellectually challenged to understand. low and null are active warzones in which everyone is both predator and prey. The analogy is a simple one. Herds of nearly defenseless prey graze while staying alert. It's pure hunting. A killer vs. a runner.
People with THIS kind of kill board should probably shut the **** up and avoid talking like a tough guy. Seriously, 13 kills in just over a year? That's pathetic.
In the last few days it's been hard to get a gank because the miners are finally, at long last, getting smarter. I think that's a good thing for everyone. It makes the stalk much more fun. Despite what p*ssies like you think and say, its actually fairly easy to avoid getting ganked if you LEARN HOW THE GAME MECHANICS WORK. Instead of spending time writing treatises on the unfairness of it all, how about you spend that time studying game mechanics?
Finally, I came IN from null sec to set up my hunting alts. You're just now going out. We'll meet again. I promise. |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 22:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why tank the orca?
Dc2 + cpu rig + sieldextender rigs, inv field and emp hardners...
Might need a shield extender, but hey.
No alpha ship will touch you.
But screw brick tanking the orca, that is just dumb.
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FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Bellum Esca
107
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 00:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
If I was you I would train up a scanning and use your skills to find grav sites. Then just keep an eye out on d-scan for probes. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 04:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:Why tank the orca?
Dc2 + cpu rig + sieldextender rigs, inv field and emp hardners...
Might need a shield extender, but hey.
No alpha ship will touch you.
But screw brick tanking the orca, that is just dumb.
Looks like someone wants easy Orca kills.
Do you know why some people like to brick tank their Orcas?
Orca can reach 280k EHP with just T2 mods and T1 shield rigs.
You want to gank that in 0.7 or higher? Prepare to lose ~1,5 bil worth of Tornadoes. |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 06:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:qDoctor Strangelove wrote:Why tank the orca?
Dc2 + cpu rig + sieldextender rigs, inv field and emp hardners...
Might need a shield extender, but hey.
No alpha ship will touch you.
But screw brick tanking the orca, that is just dumb. Looks like someone wants easy Orca kills. Do you know why some people like to brick tank their Orcas? Orca can reach 280k EHP with just T2 mods and T1 shield rigs. You want to gank that in 0.7 or higher? Prepare to lose ~1,5 bil worth of Tornadoes.
Please show one single killmail where gankers shoot an orca assisting in mining without agro...
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 07:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:Please show one single killmail where gankers shoot an orca assisting in mining without agro...
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=16720958 |
Sean McIlhenny
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
That's not a suicide gank. Either there was a wardec or that orca went flashy to the attackers. |
Marsan
Production N Destruction INC.
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Honestly you are better off not flying a hulk if you are worried about a ganking. Take that RR ship and add another cheap miner. Fly something that if someone blows it up you shrug and buy another out of petty cash. |
ashley Eoner
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:qDoctor Strangelove wrote:Why tank the orca?
Dc2 + cpu rig + sieldextender rigs, inv field and emp hardners...
Might need a shield extender, but hey.
No alpha ship will touch you.
But screw brick tanking the orca, that is just dumb. Looks like someone wants easy Orca kills. Do you know why some people like to brick tank their Orcas? Orca can reach 280k EHP with just T2 mods and T1 shield rigs. You want to gank that in 0.7 or higher? Prepare to lose ~1,5 bil worth of Tornadoes. Confirmed my Orca with cargo expansion and no combat rigs still has about 230k EHP with a character that isn't maxed out on skills. |
Cap James Tkirk
Gung-HO Guns
Dead Rune Society
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Smirky Dirk wrote:Cap James Tkirk wrote:hi sec = african safari............. fail
low sec and null are more like african safari where the preadtors eat the prey hs is for thoes that are prey and wish to remain prey i understand you might think your a mighty predator but your just a fish in a bowl. come out to lawlessness and practice being a predator
i know i was a bear in hs for a long time but im shifting into better gears
im not saying your prey but a predator ehhhhhhh thats up for debate
(im not a predator im a toon) Low and null are not like the savannah, unless there's an army of gazelles and zebras with machine guns out on the plains. It isn't a Pixar or Disney film, as hard as that may be for the intellectually challenged to understand. low and null are active warzones in which everyone is both predator and prey. The analogy is a simple one. Herds of nearly defenseless prey graze while staying alert. It's pure hunting. A killer vs. a runner. People with THIS kind of kill board should probably shut the **** up and avoid talking like a tough guy. Seriously, 13 kills in just over a year? That's pathetic. In the last few days it's been hard to get a gank because the miners are finally, at long last, getting smarter. I think that's a good thing for everyone. It makes the stalk much more fun. Despite what p*ssies like you think and say, its actually fairly easy to avoid getting ganked if you LEARN HOW THE GAME MECHANICS WORK. Instead of spending time writing treatises on the unfairness of it all, how about you spend that time studying game mechanics? Finally, I came IN from null sec to set up my hunting alts. You're just now going out. We'll meet again. I promise.
lol tough guy and pro pvper are not things i claim to be but thanks for the moral support..... and in what part of nature are thier police to stop an animal rom eating another.............. o shiza that doesnt happen so happy internet tough guy day to you good sir. |
Lady Darkmoon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
The ganking is just way too simple, cheap and effortless.
A one week old alt with a catalyst can freely gank retrievers and hulks.
Sure, there are some that try to tank up their barge or exhumers, but realistically, how many miners/builders have invested weeks of training into shields? And how much more buffer do you really get compared to the insignificant time investment required to make a gank destroyer?
Not to mention the barges/exhumers are pretty tight on their CPU and PG, and adding extenders and/or resists quickly makes players without really good fitting skills end up being unable to fit the tank they need.
So your hulk tank withstands the gank attempt of one player in a catalyst. One week later you have two alts jumping you at same time cause they know you are trying to tank up your miner.
Really nice to have a 300mill isk ship be blown up by a 7 day old clown with a destroyer.
The barges and exhumers have way too little EHP compared to their cost (exhumers in particular). Granted, they have hinted at addressing those issues this winter. Until then it's free for everyone who is bored to just roll out alts and gank any miner in sight.
After the massive banwaves the mineral and ore prices have shot up, making ships, modules and ammo alot more expensive than it used to be. Great! AFK mining bots deserved no less. Ban them all.
Now we have "active" miners who are out there forming small fleets with friends and mining out ore and minerals to supply the market... and they are getting shredded by bored people's 7 day old alts. And people are actually standing around, dumbfounded, complaining about the expensive ore and mineral prices, and consequently ship / module prices.
Do you really think the ore/mineral prices will start to decrease when you first have all the bots banned, and then you have all the "legit" miners getting suicideganked and losing their barges and exhumers ?
Personally I know know several players that I've been mining with that have simply given up mining after losing their last ship to a gank, and instead they start training to do mission runs. Which, for me, is just fine cause I have a mission running alt that can fly with them, or just help salvage and move the loot.
However... less miners, and more mission runners, just means more demand for ships and ammo, meaning higher ore/mineral prices... yet again. If things keep going the way they are, especially with the low-cost suicide ganks becomming more frequent to the point where' it's more or less a sport, well... don't complain about high cost on ships.
Anyways, to get back on topic again.
Sure, you can try to tank out your miner/exhumer... but it's only a matter of how many week old alts are the gankers interested in training up or using. It's also pretty obvious, especially in EVE, that if you start to resist their gank they'll just up the ante and take it as a challenge.
And with the mining ships the way they are today, there's not much you can do, unless you actually want to either have alts siting on standby with logi's... or have actually friends or corp mates babysitting you 23/7.
TL;dr - As I said further up, ganking mining ships is way to cheap in both isk and time investment for the ganker compared to what the mining ships cost in terms of isk and skill training. |
Ji'kahr
1st Praetorian Guard
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.06.19 04:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
There are ways that you can mine more safely.
-First of all, get away from the warp in point. Slowboat to either end of the belt, and bookmark it or anchor a GSC.
-Keep your eye on local and watch for a surge, check people's bios. Pirates and griefers will often say "Yarr, I'm a Pirate!"
-Check your directional scanner. Set it for 50,000 kilometers. Hit the directional scan button every three seconds or so. If you see any ship you don't know on the scanner, or warping into the warp-in point of the belt and making their way towards you, watch out!
-Mine inside mining missions, scan down gravimetric sites too. The ores are usually better, and gankers have to work extra hard to find you and your fleet in a mission or a grav site.
-At the first sign of danger, mining ships should pull in their drones and warp out. Stay aligned to station as you mine, this makes it faster for your ship to warp.
-Yes, E-WAR is an excellent protective measure against mining fleets. It makes the 'war' more boring and frustrating for them. Target jammers, tracking distruptors, energy neutralizers, etc.
-The Osprey is not only an awesome mining cruiser, but it is also good at providing logistics to another ship. So yes, you could conceivably use one to transfer shields to the Orcas or Hulks. It wouldn't look unusual in a mining fleet either.
-Most armed mining fleet usually have a battleship as a 'guard'. I'm not sure if this is protection against Gankers so much as to 'tank the rats' so they don't bother the miners. Battleships also have a good drone bay, so train drone skills. You can also mine in a battleship, which does about as well as a Retriever.
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Lady Darkmoon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.06.19 13:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
This doesn't change the fact that a simple 1 week alt with 2 mill investment can kill a 300 mill ship (mods not included).
Something is wrong with that picture and needs to be changed.
Sure, suicide ganking should be in the game, but it shouldn't be a free kill with zero cost related (and seriously, for most people who suicide gank with an alt, 2 mill is no cost investment whatsoever). |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
129
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 14:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Trappist Monk wrote:Celgar Thurn wrote:They aren't called gutless cowards for nothing. I'm not sure how you can call kamikazes cowards. It may be hard to believe, but some people don't do it "maliciously" to harvest your tears. Personally, i see hisec as the african savannah. you guys are zebras and i'm a cheetah. There is no good or bad, right or wrong, just predator and prey.
LOL
seriously??
you are not a cheetah killing mining ships in high sec, you are the neighborhood stray cat trying kill the caged rabbits in someones back yard, and getting yourself killed in the process.
If you want to be a cheetah go to low or null sec. In the African Savannah most of your prey will fight back. In the Savannah Cheetah's will often get killed by the herd they are attacking. much more like null than high sec.
Killing miners in high sec is like hunting animals in a ZOO. It does not make you a great hunter, and eventually you will get you ass thrown out. |
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