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Why does this happen when I turn on the afterburner or MWD??

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schoralous	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:49:00 - [1] Pardon me if this is the wrong place to post this. I am stumped by a game mechanic. Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD??? This seems stupid to me. You are already in an orbit, why not just continue that orbit path when you activate your speed mod??? Can anyone please explain to me why this happens because it makes no sense to me for this game mechanic to operate this way. Thanks
Agent Known	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:33:00 - [2] Originally by: schoralous Pardon me if this is the wrong place to post this. I am stumped by a game mechanic. Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD??? This seems stupid to me. You are already in an orbit, why not just continue that orbit path when you activate your speed mod??? Can anyone please explain to me why this happens because it makes no sense to me for this game mechanic to operate this way. Thanks When you activate the module, your inertia, mass, and speed change, so the ship has to correct its orbit path. You'll notice that it will always orbit 2-3km from what it's set to depending on your ship's size and inertia. On another note, I also have an annoying sig. inaftertimeflux
schoralous	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:59:00 - [3] Originally by: Agent Known Originally by: schoralous Pardon me if this is the wrong place to post this. I am stumped by a game mechanic. Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD??? This seems stupid to me. You are already in an orbit, why not just continue that orbit path when you activate your speed mod??? Can anyone please explain to me why this happens because it makes no sense to me for this game mechanic to operate this way. Thanks When you activate the module, your inertia, mass, and speed change, so the ship has to correct its orbit path. You'll notice that it will always orbit 2-3km from what it's set to depending on your ship's size and inertia. Ok - I understand that, but it still makes no sense to me that it does a complete slow down and flip. Why not just adjust the orbit along similar vectors thus not requiring as much of a slow down before the module activates? The way it is now the ship comes to almost a complete stop and changes to a completely different orbit vector. Granted Eve is not real space mechanics (aka, ships stop instead of keep going on inertia), but the way it is now seems to be a HUGE divergence from even the other EVE game mechanics.
Humuhumunukunukuapua'a Amarr The Protei	Posted - 2009.11.19 06:20:00 - [4] Originally by: schoralous Originally by: Agent Known Originally by: schoralous Pardon me if this is the wrong place to post this. I am stumped by a game mechanic. Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD??? This seems stupid to me. You are already in an orbit, why not just continue that orbit path when you activate your speed mod??? Can anyone please explain to me why this happens because it makes no sense to me for this game mechanic to operate this way. Thanks When you activate the module, your inertia, mass, and speed change, so the ship has to correct its orbit path. You'll notice that it will always orbit 2-3km from what it's set to depending on your ship's size and inertia. Ok - I understand that, but it still makes no sense to me that it does a complete slow down and flip. Why not just adjust the orbit along similar vectors thus not requiring as much of a slow down before the module activates? The way it is now the ship comes to almost a complete stop and changes to a completely different orbit vector. Granted Eve is not real space mechanics (aka, ships stop instead of keep going on inertia), but the way it is now seems to be a HUGE divergence from even the other EVE game mechanics. check ur actual speed. u sure its not just that ur max speed is increased, so because say u activate a MWD and ur at max speed of 200, then when its active u are suddenly at speed 200 of a max of 1,000 so u are in fact going 1/5 of ur speed so it looks like ur going slower, where realluy u just increased ur cap off. much like when u hav e a shield gang bonus and you undock then it looks like you have damage on ur shlds. maybe this? The protei. PVP...dont think just do it!
Thingymawotzit Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.11.19 06:56:00 - [5] This game mechanic or 'feature' has been around for ages. I'm pretty sure I petitioned it ages ago and all i got was "The feature is working as intended" So yea its pretty annoying but theres nothing you can do about it.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.11.19 07:10:00 - [6] Originally by: schoralous Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD? Here's my speculation: Because the CCP developers fail at math :) Not related to afterburners, but similarly related to vector math failure: You'll notice that if your ship is changing vectors from one in a +z quadrant to a -z quadrant, their maths fail causes the ship to turn from 10 degrees to 5 degrees on the x-y plane, then spin quickly from 5 degrees to 360 degrees, and then continue turning to 355 degrees. I suspect this happens because their math was built by someone looking at the x-y plane from the positive z-axis, who then tested their routine by plotting stuff in negative z-space, and never considered the transition from z+ to z-. As a result, angles are measured clockwise in both spaces, when looking at the x-y axis origin from somewhere on the z-axis that is far away from the origin. It's not that simple, since I don't see that problem all the time - I expect the transitions are between quadrants (or octants?) where more than one sign changes (eg: (+x, -y, +z) to (-x, -y, -z)), with the ship turning "left" through 0 degrees. So too, when you adjust the mass of the ship (I haven't tried it with onlining armour plates yet, so just speculating here), the vector maths fails again and rather than simply trying to "turn left harder" it gets a sign inverted on one axis, and your ship proceeds to turn to the new vector (eg: with -y instead of +y, same angle to x-z), then resume orbiting. At this point the calculations are all using the same "constant" mass, so you have no more weird vector math failure, and the vessel proceeds to orbit as expected (apart from going the wrong direction and thus taking your ship right through the cloud of NPCs you were trying to kite). That's just my guess. And again, it's speculation. But at some point in time it would be fun to see if you can achieve the same effect by putting a heavy armour plate online. Might have to try that tonight. If the same thing happens, we have a repeatable bug. The comes the fun of narrowing down which quadrants cause the "twirling dancing ship" condition. [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.11.19 08:23:00 - [7] Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 19/11/2009 08:23:02 Originally by: Agent Known Originally by: schoralous Pardon me if this is the wrong place to post this. I am stumped by a game mechanic. Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD??? This seems stupid to me. You are already in an orbit, why not just continue that orbit path when you activate your speed mod??? Can anyone please explain to me why this happens because it makes no sense to me for this game mechanic to operate this way. Thanks When you activate the module, your inertia, mass, and speed change, so the ship has to correct its orbit path. You'll notice that it will always orbit 2-3km from what it's set to depending on your ship's size and inertia. Mass stayes the same. Its not magic
schoralous	Posted - 2009.11.19 08:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Humuhumunukunukuapua'a check ur actual speed. u sure its not just that ur max speed is increased, so because say u activate a MWD and ur at max speed of 200, then when its active u are suddenly at speed 200 of a max of 1,000 so u are in fact going 1/5 of ur speed so it looks like ur going slower, where realluy u just increased ur cap off. much like when u hav e a shield gang bonus and you undock then it looks like you have damage on ur shlds. maybe this? Nope, I looked, the speed drops to almost nothing, depending on the ship, to make the turn to the new orbit vectors. I found this when flying an interceptor and being shot at. I was orbiting at 2500, turned on the afterburner and the ship came to an almost stop, changed orbit vectors and then accelerated. The problem with that being that when this happens you are now a prime target for whoever is shooting at you. Also duplicated it by coming into the target with the MWD on from 50km out, aiming for a 2500 orbit. Switched off the MWD at 30km, switched on the Afterburner and it still changed orbit vectors even though I was still 15km out from my target.
schoralous	Posted - 2009.11.19 08:30:00 - [9] Originally by: Thingymawotzit This game mechanic or 'feature' has been around for ages. I'm pretty sure I petitioned it ages ago and all i got was "The feature is working as intended" So yea its pretty annoying but theres nothing you can do about it. Argh... yeah very annoying, makes flying an interceptor very difficult. Fail on CCP for this being an "intended" feature.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.19 10:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 19/11/2009 08:23:02 Originally by: Agent Known Originally by: schoralous Pardon me if this is the wrong place to post this. I am stumped by a game mechanic. Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD??? This seems stupid to me. You are already in an orbit, why not just continue that orbit path when you activate your speed mod??? Can anyone please explain to me why this happens because it makes no sense to me for this game mechanic to operate this way. Thanks When you activate the module, your inertia, mass, and speed change, so the ship has to correct its orbit path. You'll notice that it will always orbit 2-3km from what it's set to depending on your ship's size and inertia. Mass stayes the same. Its not magic your mass does change when you activate MWD and AB. THere is a large amss penalty that kicks in to avoid excessive usage of oversized speed modules.

Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.11.19 11:17:00 - [11] Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 19/11/2009 11:17:20 Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Lindsay Logan Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 19/11/2009 08:23:02 Originally by: Agent Known Originally by: schoralous Pardon me if this is the wrong place to post this. I am stumped by a game mechanic. Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD??? This seems stupid to me. You are already in an orbit, why not just continue that orbit path when you activate your speed mod??? Can anyone please explain to me why this happens because it makes no sense to me for this game mechanic to operate this way. Thanks When you activate the module, your inertia, mass, and speed change, so the ship has to correct its orbit path. You'll notice that it will always orbit 2-3km from what it's set to depending on your ship's size and inertia. Mass stayes the same. Its not magic your mass does change when you activate MWD and AB. THere is a large amss penalty that kicks in to avoid excessive usage of oversized speed modules. Where do you see this "mass gain" then? Agility cahnges, sure.
kyrv	Posted - 2009.11.19 11:24:00 - [12] She Can'ne Take it captain!
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.11.19 11:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Where do you see this "mass gain" then? Agility cahnges, sure. Look at this Quote: Mass Addition 5,000,000 kg Activating a MWD or AB will make your ship heavier, this has been around since as long as I can remember in order to prevent 10mn ab frigs from going stupidly fast. Don't know who to vote for? Find out with CSM matchmaker!
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.19 12:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Sokratesz ... Activating a MWD or AB will make your ship heavier, this has been around since as long as I can remember in order to prevent 10mn ab frigs from going stupidly fast. that is correct. show info on ship shows increased mass after ab/mwd is activated, and reverts back after ab/mwd deactivates.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.11.19 12:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Lindsay Logan Where do you see this "mass gain" then? Agility cahnges, sure. Look at this Quote: Mass Addition 5,000,000 kg Hmm, I was under the impression that the module itself added plain old mass to the ship. Not while it was active. Can you verefy this with tests?
Shazard Gallente Intaki Liberation Front	Posted - 2009.11.19 14:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: schoralous Say you are orbiting (autopilot orbiting) someone without your Afterburner or MWD on. Then you turn the speed mod on. WHY does the ship come to close to a stop, switch direction of the orbit and THEN engage the afterburner or MWD? Here's my speculation: Because the CCP developers fail at math :) Haa... then it is not my imagination! I have noticed it several times... and for me it seems a bit wiered that in future where you have AI, drones, big ships travelling throuhg space, still... very basic navigation computer fails on such a trivial case! CCP guys, do your math correctly and fix this stuff... let ship align by closest path! There are brave ones. And then there are those whom the brave ones will follow.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.11.19 14:59:00 - [17] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/11/2009 14:59:46 Originally by: Lindsay Logan Can you verefy this with tests? MWDs and ABs only add mass when activated. Edit: And yes, it is stupid and makes no physical sense, but then again, nothing in Eve makes physical sense... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Mia Restolo	Posted - 2009.11.19 15:03:00 - [18] It's some really shoddy coding, it should be fixed but they can't be bothered... changing speed while orbiting always changes the orbit. Some times it's a small change, sometimes the ship does a full 180 and orbits in the opposite direction. In missions I just orbit something to keep speeds up, typically not having a AB on I orbit almost flat to the plane of the solar system. Switch on the AB and the orbit becomes damn near vertical relative to the system plane.
yani dumyat Minmatar Black Storm Cartel	Posted - 2009.11.19 15:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Mara Rinn I expect the transitions are between quadrants (or octants?) where more than one sign changes (eg: (+x, -y, +z) to (-x, -y, -z)), with the ship turning "left" through 0 degrees. But at some point in time it would be fun to see if you can achieve the same effect by putting a heavy armour plate online. Might have to try that tonight. If the same thing happens, we have a repeatable bug. The comes the fun of narrowing down which quadrants cause the "twirling dancing ship" condition. Interesting theory, please let us know if you manage to test it as this 'feature' has been the death of many frigates. I've just spent 15 mins playing with the mwd on a vigil and have to say the results were inconclusive, however i do have another theory to throw out there: Approach and orbit is the same piece of code as changing orbit. When you approach and orbit you will pass through a point that is the correct distance from the object before your speed and mass draw you out into a wider orbit. EG if you start at 15km and click orbit at 2,500m you will travel in a straight line till you are 2,500m away and then start orbiting where you'll drift out to 3,000m or more. When you turn the speed mod on or off the computer has to recalculate the orbit and i suspect it starts by calculating the straight line from your current position to your new orbit distance. The new orbit direction is then calculated from this straight line. I'm not entirely sure how to test this though i'm pretty sure a nano vigil was a bad place to start. _________________________________________________ Lifeboat ----> + Human
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.11.19 15:15:00 - [20] Originally by: schoralous Nope, I looked, the speed drops to almost nothing, I bolded and italicized an important part of this. Your speed display on the screen is shown as both a gauge and a number. The number is absolute, but the gauge is proportional. It shows the percentage of your maximum speed you're currently travelling. When you activate an afterburner or MWD, your max speed changes. My 401 m/s covert ops suddenly becomes capable of 2444 m/s when I turn on my MWD, and thus my speed gauge is now showing only 1/6 full. I'm still going 401 m/s for a moment, just my speed gauge is now down to the bottom. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?

Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2009.11.19 16:53:00 - [21] if your smart, you can abuse this on npcs as well.. they always use orbit... put a load of tachyons on that frigate at just the right time after you web it.. OHGODS BELOW THIS LINE IS MY SIG !!!! SRSLY! Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. Lance is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points
N'baro Dark	Posted - 2009.11.19 19:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Mara Rinn Here's my speculation: Because the CCP developers fail at math :) Not related to afterburners, but similarly related to vector math failure: You'll notice that if your ship is changing vectors from one in a +z quadrant to a -z quadrant, their maths fail causes the ship to turn from 10 degrees to 5 degrees on the x-y plane, then spin quickly from 5 degrees to 360 degrees, and then continue turning to 355 degrees. I suspect this happens because their math was built by someone looking at the x-y plane from the positive z-axis, who then tested their routine by plotting stuff in negative z-space, and never considered the transition from z+ to z-. As a result, angles are measured clockwise in both spaces, when looking at the x-y axis origin from somewhere on the z-axis that is far away from the origin. It's not that simple, since I don't see that problem all the time - I expect the transitions are between quadrants (or octants?) where more than one sign changes (eg: (+x, -y, +z) to (-x, -y, -z)), with the ship turning "left" through 0 degrees. So too, when you adjust the mass of the ship (I haven't tried it with onlining armour plates yet, so just speculating here), the vector maths fails again and rather than simply trying to "turn left harder" it gets a sign inverted on one axis, and your ship proceeds to turn to the new vector (eg: with -y instead of +y, same angle to x-z), then resume orbiting. At this point the calculations are all using the same "constant" mass, so you have no more weird vector math failure, and the vessel proceeds to orbit as expected (apart from going the wrong direction and thus taking your ship right through the cloud of NPCs you were trying to kite). That's just my guess. And again, it's speculation. But at some point in time it would be fun to see if you can achieve the same effect by putting a heavy armour plate online. Might have to try that tonight. If the same thing happens, we have a repeatable bug. The comes the fun of narrowing down which quadrants cause the "twirling dancing ship" condition. Your response made my eyes start to bleed. No, really.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.11.19 20:17:00 - [23] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/11/2009 14:59:46 Originally by: Lindsay Logan Can you verefy this with tests? MWDs and ABs only add mass when activated. Edit: And yes, it is stupid and makes no physical sense, but then again, nothing in Eve makes physical sense... I believe that the WH dwellers use this effect to their advantage when collapsing wormholes.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.11.19 20:43:00 - [24] How to avoid getting pwnd in an inty that wants to do a 180 when you press the mwd. Double click outside your orbit at a point 45 degrees away then immediatly hit your mwd followed by the orbit button. If performed correctly you will glide back in orbit along your current path at the faster speed hopefully not getting out of point range if you are quick.
MeigsYan Caldari Black Out Horizons	Posted - 2009.11.19 22:34:00 - [25] Originally by: schoralous Nope, I looked, the speed drops to almost nothing, What you may be seeing in the speed indicator adjusting itself to the the new maximum speed. When you activate the MWD the speed graph goes from showing your old speed range (say 0 to 100 m/s) to your new speed range (say 1 to 500 m/s) and your current speed must now be indicated within that new range. For example if you are moving at 100 m/s and your indicator is pegged all the way to the right, when you activate the MWD the right end of the indicator now represents 500 m/s and the graphic will instantly drop to showing your speed as being a point one-fifth of the away along the semi-circle, which is where your current speed of 100 m/s is now accurately shown. Hope this helps. Master of the (Orca Class) Deep Space Exploration And Mining Vessel "Long Shot"
Ter Fordal	Posted - 2009.11.21 11:05:00 - [26] Pretty sure it is because when you set an orbit, EVE calculates the 'thrust' vector to be be from your ship to a tangent on a sphere centered on the object you are orbiting and with a radius of the orbit distance. This defines not one unique vector but rather a circle of vectors (in 2d there would be exactly two vectors that meet this requirement). When you change something that requires the thrust vector to be recalculated (eg switch on a MWD), the new one is often in a different direction to the previous one, causing the ship to come to sometimes come to an almost complete halt. All those saying it is just an illusion of the speed scale changing should really hop in a ship and try this before posting.
Thraxon Black-Sun Pitch Black Legion	Posted - 2009.11.21 11:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Lindsay Logan Where do you see this "mass gain" then? Agility cahnges, sure. Look at this Quote: Mass Addition 5,000,000 kg Hmm, I was under the impression that the module itself added plain old mass to the ship. Not while it was active. Can you verefy this with tests? It adds mass when you activate it. And reverts back when it deactivates. We use this feature all the time when collapsing wormholes. A battleships for example turns into 150mil mass from 100mil. Really handy actually ;)
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.11.21 12:38:00 - [28] so do deactivate your speed booster before going through a jump bridge plz [the old nanofibers saved lots of LO...] - putting the gist back into logistics
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.11.21 15:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Thingymawotzit This game mechanic or 'feature' has been around for ages. I'm pretty sure I petitioned it ages ago and all i got was "The feature is working as intended" So yea its pretty annoying but theres nothing you can do about it. This. Even by EVE standards, it doesn't make sense. What I would expect is that the ship make a straight line away from the target until it reaches optimal orbit distance (like it does when you set a large orbit around something you're very close to). But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Evoke. Ev0ke	Posted - 2009.11.21 18:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Wet Ferret Originally by: Thingymawotzit This game mechanic or 'feature' has been around for ages. I'm pretty sure I petitioned it ages ago and all i got was "The feature is working as intended" So yea its pretty annoying but theres nothing you can do about it. This. Even by EVE standards, it doesn't make sense. What I would expect is that the ship make a straight line away from the target until it reaches optimal orbit distance (like it does when you set a large orbit around something you're very close to). ancient bug is ancient. IIRC this also happens/happened when a gangmate entered grid (or was it system?) .. the moment gangboni were applied your ship did the flip. pretty annoying when you were forward scout that had someone tackled on a steady orbit. >_> ___________________ ---[SAY NO TO CYNO-LOGISTICS]---



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