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Wu Jiaqiu
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
14
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Posted - 2012.06.15 12:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is it because a wizard is not allowing heavy missiles to travel too far? |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
19
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Posted - 2012.06.15 20:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:Is it because a wizard is not allowing heavy missiles to travel too far?
Eve is liquid space which is also why you lose speed once engines turn off. (please note facts posted might be 100% made up) |
Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate
236
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Posted - 2012.06.15 21:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Modern day doors open.
It's just the way it is.
I plan on living forever.......so far, so good. |
Wu Jiaqiu
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
14
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Posted - 2012.06.15 22:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pottsey wrote:Wu Jiaqiu wrote:Is it because a wizard is not allowing heavy missiles to travel too far? Eve is liquid space which is also why you lose speed once engines turn off. (please note facts posted might be 100% made up)
I actually thing I read about this somewhere...but never payed any attention to it. Is there something explaining liquid space in the lore? |
Esna Pitoojee
The Peerage
Amarr 7th Fleet
74
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Posted - 2012.06.15 22:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
For ships, yes - the use of a warp drive aboard a ship apparently causes a drag-like effect when the ship is not in warp. Moreover, warp drives cannot easily be 'flipped' on and off at the turn of a switch, explaining why we can't just turn them off and then accelerate to silly speeds.
For missiles, however, I'm not aware of any sufficient lore explanation for either the velocity or range limits. |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
4
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Posted - 2012.06.16 05:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
in this case its unfortunately likely just purely a gameplay thing to keep a difference between heavy and cruise. all things considering 250km is not that long of a range for combat.
to give an idea, real world cruise missiles go from 1300-2500km maximum range. and can carry a 200kt nuclear device as a warhead.
I think at the end it all has to do with server load and game balance.
Actually if anybody has read any EVE novels do they keep action with in 250km? or is this a place where stories and lore can stand apart from gameplay restrictions? |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
0
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Posted - 2012.06.16 09:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Considering that missiles are mostly a Caldari thing, I would say that absurdly long ranged missiles are of course perfectly doable. The problem is Rule of Aquision 34.
If missiles were given ranges in the hundreds or even thousands of kilometers then Caldari ships would do exactly that and only engage from the next planet over, which in turn would mean that no Caldari ships would ever be destroyed in combat, which in turn would lead to all the Caldari ship-building businesses quickly going bankrupt, and the Caldari will be damned if they ever let that happen for any reason. |
Flair Tachyon
PILSGESCHWADER
Monkey Circus
2
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Posted - 2012.06.16 09:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Another possible reason might be production cost and agillity.
Longer ranged missiles would require better guidance/scanner systems and more fuel/engines. Wich makes missiles a lot more expensive. More importantly, unless you have a covops missile you need to be somewhat close anyway as without tackle only structures would still be at the target area if missiles were incoming.
Also modern cruise missiles travel quiet slow (relative to air to air missiles) and are launched at stationary (or in case of ground vehicles comparatively slow) targets. Given that the moment MWD/AB is used on target ships they are relatively fast, the missile would need to keep to speeds it can still quickly adjust to evasive maneuvers of the target. The more momentum you build up, the more effort needs to be expended to quickly change heading.
In addition the more mass you carry on fuel/engine the less agile the missile gets. |
Nathan Jameson
Talocan Dominion
Talocan United
412
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Posted - 2012.06.16 10:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Silly me always sees things from a game-balance perspective. Either everyone would play Caldari, or no one would. |
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
287
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Posted - 2012.06.16 17:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:Is it because a wizard is not allowing heavy missiles to travel too far?
No, the surrounding space of the cluster is different than the atmospheric conditions on earth.
Just as a bullet fired on the north pole would decrease altitude 60 feet per-second per-second faster than a bullet fired in death valley.
The only way to question this logic would be to fire a missile in New Eden, but as New Eden isn't real, my above logic will have to do for now.
GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥
Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002.
somethingjustgotreal.com |
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David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.06.18 10:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Possible explanations:
GÇó range is sacrificed for other features (since you can only fit so much into a missile)
GÇó targeting tech canGÇÖt lock on to targets that are further away than 250km
GÇó something about cosmic radiation interfering with the equipment when exposed too long or something |
Matharos
Hard Knocks Inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.19 13:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:in this case its unfortunately likely just purely a gameplay thing to keep a difference between heavy and cruise. all things considering 250km is not that long of a range for combat.
to give an idea, real world cruise missiles go from 1300-2500km maximum range. and can carry a 200kt nuclear device as a warhead.
I think at the end it all has to do with server load and game balance.
Actually if anybody has read any EVE novels do they keep action with in 250km? or is this a place where stories and lore can stand apart from gameplay restrictions?
The think to consider is flight time.
How long does it take for that missile to fly 1300 -2500 KM? By the time your missile reaches it the ship would have moved or could be gone. Ingame even interceptors can outrun some missiles.
For ship-to-ship combat you want your missiles getting to the target as quickly as possible. |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
6
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Posted - 2012.06.19 14:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
well normal RL cruise are sub-sonic powered by small turbofans.
which brings up a question, just what powers an EVE missile? I am thinking they are simply solid rocket fueled. once launched they go until it runs out or until it goes boom. Likely for safety they go boom at the end of a burn.
(And we will leave how ships/skills increase range to the magic of gameplay mechanics over logical lore unless simply stating its making the flight path to the target more efficient so less fuel is wasted getting a solid tracking lock.) |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING
En Garde
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 11:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
The exact same can be applied to Minmitar Guns or Gallente Rails, ect. Because In space an object in motion stays in motion. |
David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.06.21 14:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:The exact same can be applied to Minmitar Guns or Gallente Rails, ect. Because In space an object in motion stays in motion.
No credit for partial answers, maggot! |
Simon Heirmonious
Ad Infinitum Inc.
Lemniskate
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 14:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Out of game reasons:
Game Ballance
In-game Reasons
- Warp drives shift space/time around the ships, causing strange mumbo-jumbo up to 250 KM away (it's how Directional Scans work, you just look for warped space/time)
- An ICBM of 1200 KM range IS NOT 0.05 m3 (size of Caldari Navy Cruise missiles), and does not travel 3.7 km/s
- Planets fear orbital bombardment. Take the Caldari and Caldari Prime as an example - I bet they wouldnt even talk to the gallente if the gallente didnt agree to prevent orbital bombardment with space-to-space weapons.
- Missiles are designed to be competitive with turret-based weaponry. They sacrifice payload and range for speed and accuracy, as well as easy cargo capacity.
Better questions would be why Lasers dont have infinite range. |
David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.06.21 18:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Simon Heirmonious wrote:Better questions would be why Lasers dont have infinite range.
That would actually be a worse question since the reason is relatively simple: Dispersion. |
Telegram Sam
The Drones Club
312
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:Pottsey wrote:Wu Jiaqiu wrote:Is it because a wizard is not allowing heavy missiles to travel too far? Eve is liquid space which is also why you lose speed once engines turn off. (please note facts posted might be 100% made up) I actually thing I read about this somewhere...but never payed any attention to it. Is there something explaining liquid space in the lore?
I've never heard of it being explained in the lore. It's explained in the Evelopedia article on acceleration, which is written OOC, non-RP. |
Rachel Silverside
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.22 11:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:Simon Heirmonious wrote:Better questions would be why Lasers dont have infinite range. That would actually be a worse question since the reason is relatively simple: Dispersion. |
Dark Drifter
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
31
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:in this case its unfortunately likely just purely a gameplay thing to keep a difference between heavy and cruise. all things considering 250km is not that long of a range for combat.
to give an idea, real world cruise missiles go from 1300-2500km maximum range. and can carry a 200kt nuclear device as a warhead.
I think at the end it all has to do with server load and game balance.
Actually if anybody has read any EVE novels do they keep action with in 250km? or is this a place where stories and lore can stand apart from gameplay restrictions?
RL cruise missiles do not carry nuclear payloads... they carry standard munitions.
ICBMs carry nuclear payloads. and even these are split in to MIRVs |
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Bast's Cleric
24th Imperial Reserves
0
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dark Drifter wrote:RL cruise missiles do not carry nuclear payloads... they carry standard munitions.
ICBMs carry nuclear payloads. and even these are split in to MIRVs
A RL Cruise Missile does indeed have the capability to carry a small nuke - but no one is willing to use it to carry one.
For the Empress |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
115
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Posted - 2012.06.24 19:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
An ICBM is made to travel thousands of kilometers and hit a non-moving target (literally) the size of a city. EVE missiles are made to engage targets (with the exception of the larger capital ships) ranging from the size of a passenger airplane to a couple city blocks all with varying levels of maneuverability (sometimes matching and exceeding that of the missile). I would wager hitting a frigate with an ICBM would be pretty difficult.
Now, an ICBM could probably hit a Titan at a range of 10,000 KM provided that you could track it and you could stop it from jumping (which gives us one possible reason, i.e. warp disruption cannot take place over such vast distances). But those missiles could be used for nothing else, including probably smaller capital ships. So when you're designing missiles and equipping your ships you're likely to favor the hardware that can respond best to the most situations.
This leaves the question of things like stations, which are massive and (despite my strong belief that they ought to properly orbit something) stationary and would be an excellent candidate for a massive and long range but slow moving ICBM. The best explanation is that such an projectile would be defenseless against New Eden's anti-missile technology. |
Synthmilk
The United Peoples of Synth
1
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Posted - 2012.06.25 00:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:Simon Heirmonious wrote:Better questions would be why Lasers dont have infinite range. That would actually be a worse question since the reason is relatively simple: Dispersion.
So what is dispersing the beam in Spaaaaaaaaace? Also I believe the term you were looking for is divergence.
Space is a vacuum, not 100%, but close enough that for our purposes it might as well be. This means that a photon will continue on a straight course at constant speed and energy as there is nothing to act on it. In short, there is nothing to disperse a laser beam in space.
Now divergence is a different beast, and basically is the tendency of a laser beam to get wider with distance, due to the relationship between the wavelength of the projected light and the diameter of the laser aperture (assuming the parts of the laser emitter are not faulty). This means it's impossible to get a 100% straight laser beam, where all photons are leaving the aperture in parallel.
So as we can't get a properly parallel beam, we will want to focus it onto the target so that we know 100% of the photons are hitting the target. The focus diameter is determined by the distance, wavelength and aperture diameter. For a weapon, we want the focus diameter to be as small as possible.
So if we ignore all the nitty-gritty math, we have an excuse for why EVE lasers have the ranges they do: The size of the laser emitters means each wavelength will have a different maximum focus range, beyond which the focal diameter will only grow larger, and thus the energy of the laser will be spread over a larger area, and not inflict as much damage. The higher energy wavelengths of light will have the shortest ranges as their minimum focal diameter will be closer, and the larger the diameter of the laser emitter, the longer the ranges can be for any given wavelength. The larger diameter weapons can also focus more raw energy regardless of wavelength, due to a complicated explanation having to do with how much energy a square inch of optical material can handle and bigger weapons having more surface area to pass energy through.
And that's why lasers don't have infinite range, why bigger lasers have longer ranges, and why bigger lasers are more powerful. |
David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.06.27 18:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Synthmilk wrote:So what is dispersing the beam in Spaaaaaaaaace? Also I believe the term you were looking for is divergence. Maybe. My dictionary translates it with dispersion. But yeah, what you described is what I meant by that term. |
Kult Altol
Republican Industries
Epsilon Fleet
5
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Posted - 2012.07.03 03:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kind of off subject but can some one link some lore for the liquid space theory. Does that mean we are actually piloting submarines? |
Sitreba Oonchevkii
Universal Freelance
CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
5
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Posted - 2012.07.04 14:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
well, after the collapse of the eve gate, the surviving colonies fell back into a period similar to the stone age for thousands of years, and lost all knowledge of terran (earth human) technology, so maybe they missed something that the people in 20th century earth didn't when building missiles. also, the physics in space are so different from physics in the atmosphere, thats like asking why it's harder to play volleyball in the mariana trench then it is on the beach... |
Kyle Ward
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
256
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Posted - 2012.07.20 12:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Aside from the fact that space battles would be absurdly boring waiting 20+ minutes for your missile to hit, it'd also leave a huge window for the defending ship to just shoot it down. Imagine if some fired a missile at you and you literally had enough time to redock, switch to a missile boat, load defenders and destroy the missile before it even appeared on your overview.
The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong! |
Katalci
Creative Cookie Procuring
Veto Corp
106
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Posted - 2012.07.23 21:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Modern day ICBMs take up to half an hour to hit their target. |
Jiska Ensa
Unour Heavy Industries
80
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Posted - 2012.07.23 21:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
Katalci wrote:Modern day ICBMs take up to half an hour to hit their target.
This. "Modern Day ICBMs" don't travel at several kilometres per second. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
414
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Posted - 2012.07.24 01:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
If I were in charge of Eve... I would introduce many, many new kinds of weapons. We've been using the same bloody weapons since day one - not exactly an ongoing arms race.
One such weapon would be an ISBM - an Interstellar Ballistic Missile. Not ship-launched, but launched from installations, and able to take out other installations. Costs a crapload of resources to assemble, but able to take out a small POS in a single blow. Three could take out a large.
Such a missile would rely on gates to travel. It would also be possible to intercept this missile by shooting it down with ships before it reaches its target. The missile would be equipped with some countermeasures to protect itself - a cloak perhaps. However it would also have a short warp range, requiring multiple 'skips' to get across a large system. Once it gets into terminal range (within one warp of target) it is no longer possible to intercept by any means.
Certain POS modules would allow you to identify inbound warheads targeted at the POS.
My reasoning: The Wing Commander III mission with the Skipper Missiles. It was incredibly fun, but also incredibly intense - the missiles would stay cloaked 90% of the time, only dropping cloak to re-adjust their course toward a planet. If they hit the planet, the population is wiped out.
This sort of thing would make POS war a lot less mind-numbing, I feel.
Just one of many weapons I'd add... |
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