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Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.22 10:51:00 - [1] So, who uses them for pvp? I did some research, and I discovered the following: Drake with 10MN MWD II Zero skills: Top speed 692m/s Merlin with 1MN AB II Zero skills: Top speed 631m/s The Drake is several classes bigger than the Merlin, and yet it's faster when equipped with a MWD than a frig with AB, and the AB gives a massive penatly to acceleration to boot. Now, maybe some skils will help even thing out a bit? Let's have a go: Dake with 10MN MWD II all level V skills: Top speed 1038m/s Merlin with 1MN AB II all level V skills: Top speed 901m/s Oh hang on, that's eve worse! That would probably explain why people only use them for mission running. I bet people would use MWD's if only they worked in the mission deadspaces. The point of all this? Well, I think if an AB frigate was daster than a MWD cruiser, it would encourage more people to use AB's for pvp. As AB's reduce acceleration as well, Cruisers would still be able to catch up to frigs if they react fast enough. Besides, a cruiser usually has more low slots, so it can fit some overdrives to give it some more speed, thus being faster than frigs. So my proposal is: Boost the speed of afterburners! Not up to MWD levels, but I'm guesstimating somewhere around 200% for the meta 12 ones should do the trick. Bring on the flames!
Zeredek	Posted - 2009.11.22 10:54:00 - [2] MWD consume alot of energy MWD makes your ship a big target --------- rawr
Shitzen Giggles	Posted - 2009.11.22 10:59:00 - [3] Also MWD's make your cap smaller, -25% for T1. MWD's take more PG/CPU than afterburners (of the appropriate size of course) MWD's are shut down completely by warp scrams. A lot of PVP'ers already fit AB's to frigs to sig/speed tank. It actually works pretty well in a variety (not all) circumstances.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2009.11.22 10:59:00 - [4] Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 22/11/2009 11:00:21 MWDs can't be shut down by scramblers. Edit: damn. Beat me to it by a split second.
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:21:00 - [5] Edited by: Fille Balle on 22/11/2009 11:24:13 Originally by: **zen Giggles Also MWD's make your cap smaller, -25% for T1. MWD's take more PG/CPU than afterburners (of the appropriate size of course) MWD's are shut down completely by warp scrams. A lot of PVP'ers already fit AB's to frigs to sig/speed tank. It actually works pretty well in a variety (not all) circumstances. Do you use AB's for pvp? Do you know anybody that does? I don't. And even then, when someone mentiones the use of AB's for pvp, they usually also metion that they use a MWD in addition to an AB. Besides, I'm not stating that I think AB's should give as much boost as MWD's, just that they need a slight boost. You mentioned that some people use them for sig/speed tanks on frigs. Fair enough, let's check out cruisers: Moa 10MN AB II: No skills: Top speed 349m/s All level V's: Top speed 439m/s Rokh 100MN MWD II: No skills: Top speed 519m/s All level V's: Top speed 783m/s So, who uses AB's on cruisers for pvp? Even with max skills vs zero skills the AB cruiser is slower than the SLOWEST BATTLESHIP IN THE WHOLE GAME. Again, I'm not saying we should make them match MWD's, but I feel an AB cruiser should at least be AS fast as a MWD battleship. Originally by:** Nika Dekaia Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 22/11/2009 11:00:21 MWDs can't be shut down by scramblers. Edit: damn. Beat me to it by a split second. Ehm, yes they can. AB's can't. But considering how little boost they get, they're still pointless. If they're so great and don't ned a boost, how come no one uses them?
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:37:00 - [6] An AB is essentially a (speed) tanking module. One web negates one AB, and vice versa. The MWD is not (the speed bonus is easily outweighed by sig radius increase). The MWD is a range dictation module. They can be either slowed down by webs, or purely negated with a scrambler. The penalties for fitting one are very significant in comparison. Things are essentially speaking balanced. More people favour range dictation (since range is everything) then (speed) tanking up close which only really works in solo situations. Also, you are strictly speaking correct when you claim that AB gives a penalty to acceleration, but you're neglecting to mention that MWD has the same mass penalty too (both exist to prevent fitting oversized modules basically since at one point that was all the rage). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Fille Balle Originally by: Nika Dekaia Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 22/11/2009 11:00:21 MWDs can't be shut down by scramblers. Edit: damn. Beat me to it by a split second. Ehm, yes they can. AB's can't. But considering how little boost they get, they're still pointless. If they're so great and don't ned a boost, how come no one uses them? Yes, i mixed that up.
Waylan Yutani Gallente DEATHFUNK	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:42:00 - [8] Edited by: Waylan Yutani on 22/11/2009 11:44:30 "Do you use AB's for pvp? Do you know anybody that does? I don't. And even then, when someone mentiones the use of AB's for pvp, they usually also metion that they use a MWD in addition to an AB." it all depends on the fleet/gang composition and the setting where you are fighting. in a sniper fleet, where mobility and gtfo power is king, you fit mwd. fighting closerange, you use ab. that said, the ab sure could use a boost in getting the ship up to speed.. acceleration power sucks
Sneak Lemming	Posted - 2009.11.22 12:46:00 - [9] The only occasion I ever seen ABs used for PVP was some anti-frigate boats, (coz they dont get scrambled) or fleet ships that have fitting issues thru skills/bad fits, and then dont have enuff cpu/pwr for a mwd but still need some form of speed mod
King Rothgar Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.11.22 13:12:00 - [10] I use mwd's and AB's about equally. Obviously when busting a mission runner the AB is the module of choice since a MWD is unlikely to work. Aside from this obvious situation, I do use them when it's tactically appropriate. One example is fighting drakes and other missile ships. A BC like the harbinger putting along at 450m/s with an AB will take far less damage from a drake than one with no speed mod or a mwd running. Though the AB harbinger is very slow by most standards, the ability to speed tank the missiles is a major advantage. This effect is even more significant when attacking a missile boat with a smaller hull (ie pilgrim vs raven). Other situations where the AB is preferable is in extreme close range fights. Often in the case of a station fight an AB is preferable as it can't be turned off by a scrambler and the fight will at least start with only a 2-3km separation. This is also a case where a scrambler is better than a disruptor. Some ships naturally lean towards an AB anyways. These are ships that are forced to fight within scramble range anyways or are naturally very fast and so the AB/scrambler combo is preferable to disruptor and mwd. Such ships include the pilgrim, many AF's and cruiser/BC hulls in limited cases. I don't know of a situation outside of mission busting where an AB is appropriate on a BS. -----------------------------------------------------
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.22 13:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Waylan Yutani fighting closerange, you use ab. that said, the ab sure could use a boost in getting the ship up to speed.. acceleration power sucks You are correct when you say that an AB is ideal for fighting up close, but that doesn't help a lot if you can't close the gap. Considering the fact that an AB frig is slower than a MWD cruiser, this will never happen wit AB's. Originally by: Cpt Branko An AB is essentially a (speed) tanking module. Ok, let's crunch some numbers again, but this time using faster ships, all with AB II modules: Rifter: No skills: 809m/s Skills: 1154m/s <- yeah, that works Stabber: No skills: 516m/s Skills: 918m/s <-wow, that's pretty good actually, but let's try a ship without a speed bonus Rupture: No skills: 426m/s Skills: 605m/s <-Hm, could tank battleships I suppose, let's try something bigger Hurricane: No skills: 356m/s Skills: 505m/s <-Erm, well now. I guess this ship was not meant to speed tank, even though it's a minmatar ship: The speed tanking race. Well, guess the ship might be a bit big for the module. Let's try battle ships Typhoon: No skills: 301m/s Skills: 430m/s <-Speed tank what excactly? A sieged dread? No, I don't feel they work very well as speed tank modules. Originally by: Cpt Branko The nano-nerf cut to MWD acceleration and introduction of scramblers killing MWDs and 60% webs put the modules in a reasonable relation to each other, but whatever you do, range control is going to be a more vital thing for gang combat. Overboosting ABs would only lead to OP solo ships and still be useless at large. lol, I don't think I've ever read "overpowered" and "solo" in the same sentence before. Besides, I don't see how that's an issue. Bigger blob always wins anyways, and there's nothing to stop you from fitting an AB as well.
De'Vadder Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.22 14:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Fille Balle You are correct when you say that an AB is ideal for fighting up close, but that doesn't help a lot if you can't close the gap. Considering the fact that an AB frig is slower than a MWD cruiser, this will never happen wit AB's. Well, it will, if you just start the fight in range. If my afterburned Pilgrim scans your MWD cruiser out and warps up to you in cloak, meaning that i will either land in scram range directly or can approach you if your unsuspecting and decloak. You will need cat like reflexes and a really nano ship now to get away before my scram has you shut down. And from that point on your basically dead (unless you have fiends who come to help ofc) as you wont be able to track me at all, my AB allows me to speedtank a lot of your missiles and you cant use your MWD. Not to mention that my cap is not -25% while yours even might have to deal with my neuts. Of course this a special situation and for example a gang in 0.0 will allways have their MWD for bubble reasons, but as mentioned before theres no need for every module to be usefull in every situation. I mean noone ever uses ship scanners (those that show modules) do they? And those are imho much cooler than AB ^^ And why is there still nothing that sets content apart from signature? Is that intentional or technically imposible?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.11.22 14:53:00 - [13] I didn't realise that simply clicking "warp" when a Pilgrim lands on grid or uncloaks required "cat-like reflexes".
De'Vadder Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.22 15:00:00 - [14] Oh okay, if you wanna run away..... Okay, maybe cat-like was a little too much. ^^ But if your aligned and watch the overview, a MWD boat wont get you just as well. I meant that its hard to pull range in time with a MWD but stay on Grid as we discuss MWD vs. AB here, not carefull guy vs. surprise attack. And why is there still nothing that sets content apart from signature? Is that intentional or technically imposible?
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.22 15:17:00 - [15] Originally by: De'Vadder Well, it will, if you just start the fight in range. If my afterburned Pilgrim scans your MWD cruiser out and warps up to you in cloak, meaning that i will either land in scram range directly or can approach you if your unsuspecting and decloak. You will need cat like reflexes and a really nano ship now to get away before my scram has you shut down. And from that point on your basically dead (unless you have fiends who come to help ofc) as you wont be able to track me at all, my AB allows me to speedtank a lot of your missiles and you cant use your MWD. Not to mention that my cap is not -25% while yours even might have to deal with my neuts. Of course this a special situation and for example a gang in 0.0 will allways have their MWD for bubble reasons, but as mentioned before theres no need for every module to be usefull in every situation. I mean noone ever uses ship scanners (those that show modules) do they? And those are imho much cooler than AB ^^ And how often does that happen? And what else can that fit do? Not very convincing in my book. I'm not saying AB's should be THE pvp module, but I feel they could use a small boost to make them more useful. The only reason I've showed the figures, is because that illustrates how underpowered they are atm. If a meta 12 AB had a boost of 200% as a base, then that would mean a max boost of 250%, still half as much as a MWD, but a lot more useful. That would mean that the more commonly used t2 version would have a boost of about 175%, which would max out at 218.75%. Not excactly ultra super pwn. Then again, I'm not saying that those are good figures. I'm just throwing some numbers on the table. I'm too lazy to do the math to come up with some proper figures right now.
Waylan Yutani Gallente DEATHFUNK	Posted - 2009.11.22 15:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Fille Balle You are correct when you say that an AB is ideal for fighting up close, but that doesn't help a lot if you can't close the gap. Considering the fact that an AB frig is slower than a MWD cruiser, this will never happen wit AB's. its true, and this is what it all crunch down to - setting up a tactic that allows you to pull off a knife fight.. and there are loads of nifty tricks
Ollodem	Posted - 2009.11.22 15:46:00 - [17] Well, if you of course disregard all situations/tactics/fits where AB>MWD (like hunting ratters/missioneers/explorers in low) then your right, except from that Mwd is better, i agree. Yes they are neither used in gang- nor in blobfare but some of us enjoy solo and/or lowsec Pvp.
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.22 16:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Waylan Yutani its true, and this is what it all crunch down to - setting up a tactic that allows you to pull off a knife fight.. and there are loads of nifty tricks Or, fit a MWD and you're covered just in case things go pear shaped.
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.11.22 16:05:00 - [19] I use them for pvp, they are awesome. You didn't do any research, you don't pvp, all you did was copy/paste some numbers from eft and claim that you have a cluep. You don't so stop trolling.
Waylan Yutani Gallente DEATHFUNK	Posted - 2009.11.22 16:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Fille Balle Or, fit a MWD and you're covered just in case things go pear shaped. ye, and its not uncommon to fit both. I, however, fly gallente exclusively, so mids are a bit scarse. I like to count on not screwing up tho
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2009.11.22 16:44:00 - [21] A.... the drake isn't a cruiser... it's a battlecruiser. Just saying. B... a boost to AB's would be soooo overpowered. It's already too easy to speed tank many turret guns by simply orbiting. C... if you really think people only use AB's for mission running, then I guess you don't pvp much. Sure it's not as common as MWD, but the ships that can go 1k+ with an afterburner, often use that as a quite viable fit.
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.22 21:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Fille Balle on 22/11/2009 21:41:45 Originally by: Valandril I use them for pvp, they are awesome. You didn't do any research, you don't pvp, all you did was copy/paste some numbers from eft and claim that you have a cluep. You don't so stop trolling. Are you trying to tell me that the numbers from eft are false? Because last time I checked, they were spot on. I agree that dps numbers are are no more than an indication of potential damage output. But the speed of a ship is absolute, there is nothing else affecting it. Originally by: Tom Peeping A... a boost to AB's would be soooo overpowered. It's already too easy to speed tank many turret guns by simply orbiting. B... if you really think people only use AB's for mission running, then I guess you don't pvp much. Sure it's not as common as MWD, but the ships that can go 1k+ with an afterburner, often use that as a quite viable fit. edit: and that's on top of the very viable mentions like the pilgrim noted above. You're right, it's not THE uber PVP mod, but to say it's not there at all? meh. A. Battleship sized turrets are supposed to have a hard time hitting frigs. That's why they have slow tracking and high sig res. Sniping can mitigate this. Besides, webs still work. It's not like they suddenly stop working becuase you boost the speed of afteburners. B. Indeed, but what about all the other ships that CAN'T do 1k+ with an AB? Is an AB not supposed to be viable for them? Edit: and why do 100mn AB's even exist? You sure as hell can't do any speed tanking with it. I guess you can use it on cruisers for the lulz, but then again, they nerfed that.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.22 22:04:00 - [23] Afterburners jay! \o/ I use them all the time. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Grarr Wrexx	Posted - 2009.11.25 04:29:00 - [24] The reason why MWD's are like that is because they are more of a necessary evil. Tell me, if you know the enemy is using tanks, are you just going to send jeeps after them?
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.25 19:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Grarr Wrexx The reason why MWD's are like that is because they are more of a necessary evil. Tell me, if you know the enemy is using tanks, are you just going to send jeeps after them? Not entirely sure what you're on about, but no. Jeeps would perform very badly against tanks. Artillery, mines and infantry are more suited for fighting tanks. I just think it's silly that a ship that's several classes bigger than a frig can be faster than a frig becuase it uses a higher speed module, and yes, I think that forces everyone to use mwd's in most situations. In fact, I think minmatar ships with a speed bonus are the only valid ships for using AB's. Caldari ships are out of the question, Ammar maybe some of the t2 ones, Gallente no way. And Battleships are most certainly out of the question, for any race.
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.11.25 20:31:00 - [26] AFs with AB are pure fun. also T3 cruiser with AB. AB might not be the right module for any ship. but definitely fun. also in pvp.
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.26 20:32:00 - [27] Originally by: darius mclever AFs with AB are pure fun. also T3 cruiser with AB. AB might not be the right module for any ship. but definitely fun. also in pvp. Indeed you are correct, they are valid for some ships. I never said they aren't, but I would like them to be more valid. Like AB's on battleships. I've seen one comment so far about their valid use (apart from pve) which is busting missions. That's a bit TOO situational for my taste. And regarding AF's, have youo tried fitting an AB to a harpy? Trust me, it's not fun. I have maxed out all the skills that increase speed (including acceleration control), and I still only get about 900m/s with a Corpus A-type (or whatever it's called, the second best one). A bit expensive for pvp, but there you go. I know Caldari in general suffer from a lack of speed, but still. I don't feel it's right that a module should be exluded from an entire race.
Taja Calaren	Posted - 2009.11.26 22:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Fille Balle Edit: and why do 100mn AB's even exist? You sure as hell can't do any speed tanking with it. I guess you can use it on cruisers for the lulz, but then again, they nerfed that. You are SO wrong. You obviously know EFT... you ever bothered doing a dps graph? Try it out, take a standard Torp Raven as attacker and let it attack two Tempest, one fitted with an mwd, the other fitted with an AB. Surprise surprise. In PVE its even better... the AB gives you a huge decrease in incoming missile dps. An BS with AB can outrun any NPC BS and most Cruisers. ABed BCs and Command Ship can even outrun most mission frigs and and cant be tracked by most BS. The AB cost only laughable fitting and very little CAP. Yes, if you think about pvp combats where either your target or you will want to run, an AB is not a good idea for sure - because that is exactly what MWDs are made for. If both sides want to fight on the other hand you will get within scram range most times.... and this is when your speed mood will still work will his wont. Also keep in mind that if both sides are fitted with warp scramblers the AB-ship will most likely have the ability to get out of scram range if he wants to... while the mwd ship cant do that.
Waylan Yutani Gallente DEATHFUNK	Posted - 2009.11.26 22:34:00 - [29] Edited by: Waylan Yutani on 26/11/2009 22:36:19 Your flying an ishkur with standard 1mn ab2 "you enter a system looking for a 1v1 fight, nothing on scan - you sit on a planet at 20 km.. wait a bit to long. a vaga comes in speeds towards you - pull orbit and points and kills you" your ab wasnt able to close the distance, you died because you were a noob.. "you enter a system looking for a 1v1 fight, nothing on scan - you sit on a planet at 20 km aligned out for another planet. A vaga comes in, and you warp yourself to the next planet. d-scan set to 30.000 km, pressing it constantly to see if he follows. He does, and land smack down on your warpin. you scram, web (for good measures) and start off by killing his drones - vaga is dead in the water, and you orbit at 2km with 700 m/s well below his optimal- vaga didnt fit a neut" vaga noob is dead

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