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Wrayeth
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.11.22 20:48:00 -
[1]
Greetings,
I just wanted clarification on something: will there be a tempest fix coming in Dominion? I've read about the projectile changes, and, while some of them look good, they're not enough to counteract the baseline problems the tempest suffers from. As someone who used to absolutely love the weathervane and was looking forward to being able to fly it again once it was announced that Minmatar were being looked at, I would greatly appreciate any confirmation from CCP one way or another.
Thank you. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.11.22 21:22:00 -
[2]
Just envision the worst possible outcome, then multiply that by 10, and there ya go.
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Arramis
Minmatar ROMANIA Renegades Primary.
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Posted - 2009.11.22 21:47:00 -
[3]
Originally by: murder one Just envision the worst possible outcome, then multiply that by 10, and there ya go.
This is true. They don`t play the game anymore...is just spreadsheet crap. ------------------------------------------
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2009.11.22 22:06:00 -
[4]
You mean like how they "fixed" the fleet tempest? -- stuff -- |
HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.22 23:54:00 -
[5]
as u see tempest now is how u see it on TQ come next week Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Wrayeth
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:34:00 -
[6]
Bump.
A simple "we're not changing it in this patch", "we're still looking into it", or "yes, it is being changed" would be appreciated.
Thank you. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:44:00 -
[7]
december first youl lsee the patch notes like the rest of us will find out then Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Toman Torax
Rage For Order Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.11.26 16:55:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Toman Torax on 26/11/2009 16:55:25 They haven't responded to 7 pages about the lolNaglfar... do you honestly think they re going to respond to your Tempest question? CCP just doesn't give a **** anymore. It's THEIR ideas of balancing, and your concerns be damned. Also, test server is pointless. Just look at 2 months of testing of the supercarriers that was easily tossed away.
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:29:00 -
[9]
IIRC I think they just flipped the armor and shield HPs and that's it. Ofc that may have changed and they may be doing sod all for I know.
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:31:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 26/11/2009 17:31:42 They should really role back the fleet tempest changes also. Who the hell wanted a poor mans megathron, or a 5th rate macherial anyway?
Also... ____ *New* - Tempest/Maelstrom |
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 26/11/2009 17:31:42 They should really role back the fleet tempest changes also. Who the hell wanted a poor mans megathron, or a 5th rate macherial anyway?
Also...
Like the Idea for tempest to be speed/shield altho dunno about that drone bonus, I'd mebbe prefer 1 less low 1 more mid than you, really define what kind of tank it's supposed to fit instead of failing at both. Really good shield buffer on pest would not impede on the active role of the mael.
Maelstrom, IDK, it has it's role as solopwnmachine (albeit in a game where the need for that declines daily). Perhaps just a bit of help in the sniper role, but that should have come from projectile balancing TBH.
I'll admit I am not as knowledgable in depth as you (why I only read rather than posted in the projectile balancing thread) so if I am way off base, point out where.... I'd be interested to know
On the whole tho, really appreciate what all you guys did in that balance thread, even with all the differing opinions. I just hope it comes out ok for Dominion altho basing the buff around a module that will affect falloff seems pretty weird. I get the feeling that CCP have just stopped listening to you guys... but there's plenty of us minnies that appreciates thr effort some of you guys put in. .. good job
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:51:00 -
[12]
But it makes perfect sense for the fastest, most agile BS... to gimp its mobility advantage by fitting an armour tank that's crappy anyway and takes up all the room needed for damage mods! All hail the genius of Nozh! :ccp:
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:55:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Insa Rexion on 26/11/2009 17:55:20
Originally by: Gypsio III But it makes perfect sense for the fastest, most agile BS... to gimp its mobility advantage by fitting an armour tank that's crappy anyway and takes up all the room needed for damage mods! All hail the genius of Nozh! :ccp:
yeah I'm not 100% sure that the HP swap is the final "buff" (lol) for the pest... is it ? If so then I have to say I agree with your point and...
QFT
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Insa Rexion
Like the Idea for tempest to be speed/shield altho dunno about that drone bonus, I'd mebbe prefer 1 less low 1 more mid than you, really define what kind of tank it's supposed to fit instead of failing at both. Really good shield buffer on pest would not impede on the active role of the mael.
In keeping it's performance with the other tier 2 battleships, I decided that it would be best to have 6/6. 1) it keeps the people currently using the tempest as an armour tanker happy 2) It would have given it the tank of something approaching a tier 3 battleship.
Below is raw stats comparison on the new tempest proposal.
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
In this example I've modified the tempests fitting and reset it's base shield/armour, speed and agility back to TQ levels. I'm currently using t2 ammo for the turrets as I've not had time to modify the t1/faction ammo values yet, nor the modules yet, on SISI, the fall off would be 20km with hail, and about 30km with RF EMP/Fusion/PP.
When shield tanked the tempests natural speed begins to shine, although it's not the 7/7/5 or 8/7/4 shield tank many of you hoped, it's EHP and tanking strength is still in line with ships in it's tier, it also allows the maelstrom, as with all tier 3 battleships, room to shine with it's tanking.
Originally by: Insa Rexion Maelstrom, IDK, it has it's role as solopwnmachine (albeit in a game where the need for that declines daily). Perhaps just a bit of help in the sniper role, but that should have come from projectile balancing TBH.
Nah, the Maelstroms always been a small gang or fleet ship, it's pretty much the curse of shield tanking. I've given it a fall off bonus which should help alot with sniping (now has 120km fall off with 1400mm II's instead of 44km on tq (72km on SISI). ____ *New* - Tempest/Maelstrom |
Wrayeth
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.11.27 03:29:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 27/11/2009 03:35:59 Well, if we're going to talk about ways to modify the tempest and maelstrom while waiting for a dev response, then I'll post a few suggestions of my own.
First (since it's easier), the maelstrom. As active tanking is significantly sub-par in combat these days, let's just admit that an active tanking bonus is largely useless in PvP. That being the case, let's just remove the shield boost bonus entirely. To compensate, for people who want to run missions, let's add another midslot for another boost amp. This additional midslot would allow for more EHP via an extender or another hardener in PvP or allow the maelstrom to fit full tackle with an AC setup. Of course, you can't just add a slot without taking one away, so let's remove a lowslot. At the same time, add some CPU to make up for the co-processor some setups may now be missing out on, and also to compensate for the increased CPU need of most midslot modules.
Okay, now that we've nailed the slot layout, time to hit up the bonuses. The maelstrom now only has one bonus, so let's add a combined optimal/falloff bonus of 5% (that's 5% to optimal AND 5% to falloff). This allows the mael to begin to compete with range bonused ships of other races (apoc, rokh). At the same time, it may be worth considering changing the mael's RoF bonus to a damage bonus to cement its place as holder of the top alpha strike in the game short of a dreadnought. This is not integral to my suggestion for the changes, though.
Now for the hard one: the tempest. Simply, it currently has no role. It basically does nothing better than other ships of its class, and most things more poorly. As such, it's time to completely re-envision the ol' weathervane. To begin with, let's take a look at the ship progression in the Minmatar lineup. You'll see that, in both the frigate and cruiser classes, ships exist with significantly higher speed than others of their class. This type of ship is notably lacking in the Minmatar battleship lineup, however. It's time to change that.
To begin with, let's add some speed and agility to the ship, similar to the machariel. We're not, however, going to give the ship the machariel's uber DPS - this isn't supposed to match a faction battleship, after all.
Now that we've done that, it's time to examine the slot layout. Simply, in this day and age, the fifth midslot isn't as useful as it once was (ECM not effective except on dedicated ships, same with sensor damps). Also, the lack of a seventh low significantly reduces either the tank or the DPS of the tempest compared to other armor tankers. That being the case, let's move the fifth mid to a lowslot.
Now, for the bonuses. For this plan to work, we need to free up one of the two bonus slots on the tempest hull. As such, simply remove one of them; for the other, it's time to double it to a 10% per level effect. As a result, we have one unoccupied bonus.
Now, you've probably spent a goodly chunk of time saying to yourself: "An armor-tanking speed ship? How can that possibly work?" The answer can be summed up in three words: mass reduction bonus. In short, the bonus would reduce the total mass of the ship. The goal of said bonus would be to negate the velocity penalty for using plates and armor rigs on the ship...or give the ship some extra speed beyond its base speed advantage if the pilot has the ******* to take it into PvP with an active tank instead of plates. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Wrayeth
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.11.27 03:35:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 27/11/2009 03:36:21 As such, the bonus should be configured in such a way that the penalties to max velocity with MWD active, two plates fitted, and three armor rigs installed are fully negated at battleship 5. This would require mathsÖ that I can't be bothered to work out (largely because I'm unsure of the equations behind them), but I'm sure some kindly forum-goers or devs could calculate them for me.
Now, these changes require one more thing: an ounce of prevention to ensure the days of nano battleships don't return: remove all of the launcher hardpoints. This way, the tempest will have to slow down if it wants to engage an opponent. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.27 03:39:00 -
[17]
Content will be posted 5 minutes after patch day begins to give u a take it or leave it situation and thats it Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Alciblades
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Posted - 2009.11.27 06:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: HeliosGal Content will be posted 5 minutes after patch day begins to give u a take it or leave it situation and thats it
You've posted the same (irrelevant) thing 3 times in this thread. I think it's about time yet another person told you to stfu.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.27 07:22:00 -
[19]
The posting of a revelant message that will come to pass based on previous patches is about time that notice was paid Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.27 12:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Alciblades
Originally by: HeliosGal Content will be posted 5 minutes after patch day begins to give u a take it or leave it situation and thats it
You've posted the same (irrelevant) thing 3 times in this thread. I think it's about time yet another person told you to stfu.
I was beginning to think he was a spam bot written to annoy the hell out of the CCP's Q/A department...
@Wrayeth We're generally on the same page on the Maelstrom however. The new Macherial is faster than most cruisers, a t1 ship faster than the Macherial would be somewhat broken. For instance, would you ever fly a battlecruiser again? The main reason people fly smaller ships beyond cost, is speed and agility, when the bigger ships overlap in that respect you displace balance issues to ship classes lower down.
Don't forget that the Tempest is already faster than most battlecruisers, and that the Typhoon is faster still although most wouldn't notice due to heavy speed penalties induced by armour tanking. So instead of giving it even more speed to compensate, make it a shield tanker and go 30% faster for free. As shield tanking has better synergy with speed mods and projectiles (which need +1 damage mod to be competitive)
Anyway, the bottom line is that the Tempest is a battleships, battleships tank and gank usually simultaneously. Make the Tempest do this and you pretty much fix the ship.
See sig for the discussion. ____ *New* - Tempest/Maelstrom |
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