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Dr Lebroi
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Posted - 2009.11.27 14:49:00 -
[1]
I've spent a bit of time looking at macro mining and the programs that are used to do it. I believe that there are two ways to stop it. The first lies in the docking mechanic. Macro miners seem to rely on being able to transport their ore back to station in order for their resource stripping to work.
I propose that all industrial ships, be they mining vessels or hauling vessels, should have to input a docking code. When docking, the vessel enters safely into the station so it is not in danger from other vessels, Scotty then requests verification from the pilot to ensure (for safety reasons) that the ship is being flown by a person and not a computer. The system generates a random series of letters and numbers that have to be inputted in order to unlock station services. If the numbers are not inputted the ship is held in quarantine inside the station until the pilot requests a new string for inputting when he returns to his ship. The image could be scrambled as these codes often are to prevent computer recognition of the code.
You couldnÆt do this with combat vessels as it would delay re-loading, module changes etc which typically need to be done quickly in combat situations. If this pushed the macro miners into battleships then they would be a piece of cake to spot and could be reported.
The second way to counter macro mining is to introduce it into the game for highly skilled and dedicated players. It isnÆt unreasonable to expect to see automated mining in the Eve universe. The technology would almost certainly exist and big corporations would exploit it. If an automated mining vessel was introduced that was very efficient but very hard to train for and buy then real players would be able to gain the benefits that macro miners have and beat them at their own game. The macro miners would never be able to get hold of this technology as they use disposable characters with fairly low skills in case they get banned.
Just some thoughts CCP û IÆm looking forward to the expansion!
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Flying ZombieJesus
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Posted - 2009.11.27 15:06:00 -
[2]
so, you want a legal macro miner?
I can just turn on my pc and sit in station 23/7, and have a skilled up eve sanctioned macro miner work for me?
Where do I sign up?
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Athanasia Samsa
Amarr
Institute for Mental Hygiene
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Posted - 2009.11.27 16:32:00 -
[3]
a captcha? great idea... next step: make eve a browser game?
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.11.27 18:59:00 -
[4]
Using Macro's is technically okay by CCP, just so long as you don't do anything better then a human could.
It's just that it annoys miners who actively mine to no end.
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Dr Lebroi
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Posted - 2009.11.27 19:21:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Flying ZombieJesus
so, you want a legal macro miner?
I can just turn on my pc and sit in station 23/7, and have a skilled up eve sanctioned macro miner work for me?
Where do I sign up?
Not quite! My idea was that it would be more like a cross between a POS and an industrial titan i.e only achievable by a large group of players working together. It would need to be fuelled and maintained by any corporation or alliance that managed to build it but it would give access to automated mining which would mean it would not need to be supervised 24/7. If active in lucrative 0.0 or low sec space, it would need to be protected by a security team to prevent rival corps or alliances destroying it.
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Cedims
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Posted - 2009.11.27 20:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kanatta Jing
Using Macro's is technically okay by CCP, just so long as you don't do anything better then a human could.
Not true, they do go after macro miners. I've gotten several "we are looking into ways" when asked about macro miners.
And BTW, Anything repetitious, over time, will be "better" (in terms of yield) than a human, if it runs for sustained periods of time.
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Elldranga
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Posted - 2009.11.27 21:07:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cedims
Originally by: Kanatta Jing
Using Macro's is technically okay by CCP, just so long as you don't do anything better then a human could.
Not true, they do go after macro miners. I've gotten several "we are looking into ways" when asked about macro miners.
And BTW, Anything repetitious, over time, will be "better" (in terms of yield) than a human, if it runs for sustained periods of time.
Not true... macros are not specifically forbidden... it depends on what you are using the macro for. A macro that enables a pilot to not actually be present playing the game is not permitted, however macros that accomplish specific tasks which require a pilot to actually control everything personally are generally permissable. As always, if you feel like something is questionable, just ask.... it's not that hard.
Personally, I'm fighting carpal tunnel syndrome, and the perpetual right click menu action required on traveling roams is quite problematic for me. Many things have keyboard shortcuts, but unfortunately, traveling isn't one of them. I'm personally looking into ways to "macro" so that I can move the mouse over the gate in the overview, and press a keyboard button and have it select "warp to" for me, rather than me having to use the right button menus as the keyboard use does not seem to bother the CTS, though the mouse buttons do. Technically, I suppose that will occur faster than I could manually use the menu, however it also appears to be permitted, per previous CCP pronouncements regarding similar issues involving programable keys/buttons.
This is, as far as I'm aware, perfectly kosher use of macros... on the same scale as the shortcut buttons on mice or programmable keyboards which are already in consistent use.
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Dr Lebroi
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Posted - 2009.11.28 11:47:00 -
[8]
Elldranga, cheers for that and best of luck with your carpal problems, I've got a friend with that and it can be a real pig so hope you get something sorted out.
So it seems that it is AFK macro mining that is the big no-no? If you run one of these programs while you are typing a letter or watching some TV it's OK as long as you are in contact and watching the process but it's not OK to run it while you are asleep.
Didn't know that - thanks for the clarification!
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.11.28 12:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dr Lebroi
Didn't know that - thanks for the clarification!
I wouldn't take that as clarification or official unless a GM or Dev posts this.
Read the EULA part 7.A.3.
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Dr Lebroi
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Posted - 2009.11.28 14:46:00 -
[10]
3.You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.
That's the wording, the key bit being 'accelerated rate' - as I understand it a macro programme cannot make the mining process any quicker than an ordinary human player could do it if he was prepared to sit in front of his monitor for long periods of time. But a human player could not mine for 24 hours a day like a macro can.
From that wording I would say that using a macro to automate certain process when you are present and contactable and supervising the process at your computer is OK. What is not OK is using a macro to perform actions within the game environment when you are not involved in supervision i.e. asleep, at the shops etc
The wording seems to suggest that if you were to automate certain processes so that you could do your homework at the same time or write a letter, then you wouldnÆt be breaking the rules as long as you were watching what was going on and responding to chat and other æliveÆ events within the game. I suppose this isnÆt that different to jumping into a mission, releasing drones and letting them go to work and then picking up the mission objective once the drones have killed everything.
Most mass miners donÆt use macros as they donÆt actually speed the process up û mass miners prefer to run multiple clients with a team of people working in shifts with one operator flying up to 8 mining vessels.
Complicated stuff! Perhaps a Dev could clarify if they do get the chance to read this.
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Cedims
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Posted - 2009.11.28 17:21:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Read the EULA part 7.A.3.
Thank you for that, Abrazzar!
/me "That ought to put a sock in it. Yeah, right! lol"
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Celestial Shadows
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Posted - 2009.11.28 20:05:00 -
[12]
That would make hauling for a mining fleet intensely painful.
Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
Dr Lebroi
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Posted - 2009.11.29 12:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
That would make hauling for a mining fleet intensely painful.
No it wouldn't - you'd only have to tap in 3 or 4 numbers or letters when you docked, and each time you did it you'd know that it was stopping any AFK team from depleting the resources in your system. This would slow down supply which would drive up mineral prices meaning that you were better rewarded for your genuine work.
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JohnPaulJones
Caldari
Valhalla Naval Corp
Valhalla Strategic Command
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Posted - 2009.12.01 01:55:00 -
[14]
This probably isnt a suprise but my Corp located,pinpointed and fired upon a large group of macro farmers from K space in a WH chained 5 jumps from our system. My understanding is there is also an autopilot macro as well allowing for WTZ. Seems there is no end to this bullcrap and makes me wonder how many other hacks there are that give players an illegal upper hand over legit players.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.01 12:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dr Lebroi
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
That would make hauling for a mining fleet intensely painful.
No it wouldn't - you'd only have to tap in 3 or 4 numbers or letters when you docked, and each time you did it you'd know that it was stopping any AFK team from depleting the resources in your system. This would slow down supply which would drive up mineral prices meaning that you were better rewarded for your genuine work.
1) macro can resolve captcha;
2) inputting a captcha every time you dock and undock become painful very fast;
3) read the other threads where this idea has been shot down instead of reproposing it for the nth time.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Celestial Shadows
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Posted - 2009.12.01 13:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dr Lebroi
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
That would make hauling for a mining fleet intensely painful.
No it wouldn't - you'd only have to tap in 3 or 4 numbers or letters when you docked, and each time you did it you'd know that it was stopping any AFK team from depleting the resources in your system. This would slow down supply which would drive up mineral prices meaning that you were better rewarded for your genuine work.
I take it that you don't do much hauling for fleet ops. Doubling the time spent in station each trip is not good.
Additionally, smart miners know how to find the less-used systems with plenty of rocks and little competition so macros eating our rocks isn't a major issue.
Higher mineral prices are good, but that seems to be largely demand-driven. Null-sec wars = higher prices. And higher prices pull missioners into mining ships to take advantage.
Macro-mining is a problem at some level, but making it a pain for real players to mine and haul isn't the solution. :)
Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
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