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Eon Veldor
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2012.06.17 06:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
I had an idea that might be a suitable way to compensate players who defensively plex with some LP's.
The amount of LP's received from defensive plexing should be related to the level of contention or vulnerability of the current system. The most reward should be given to players who defend a vulnerable system, while no reward should be given to players who defensively plex a system that is completely or nearly stable.
My idea would have five basic levels of lp rewards:
System is vulnerable: Players receive 100% of the lp's equal to an offensive plex of the same size. So, defensively plexing a minor outpost will net 10,000 lp's.
System is 75%-99% contested: 75% equivalent lp rewards.
System is 50%-74% contested: 50% lp's rewarded.
System is 25%-49% contested: 25% lp's.
System is 0%-24% contested: 0 lp's rewarded.
In theory, this will compensate defensive players for rushing to the defense of vulnerable systems while preventing an endless lp farming exploit on stable systems.
What do you think? |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
82
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Posted - 2012.06.17 19:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think your idea would :
A. create incentive to go defend a critical area.
B. create "hot" systems that will promote more pvp.
C. pay the ppl who participate.
Long term effects, I dunno. The ebb and flow of FW has no history as of yet. The new mechanics have a life of their own.
This could keep pilots 'home' more. And would make flipping systems harder.
I have thought about incentives myself. Home systems incentives, Habitation incentives.
+1 to you for at least thinking about it. I'm not sure that many other ppl do.
+2 for a well thought out rewards system. |
Garr Earthbender
Quantum Cats Syndicate
46
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Posted - 2012.06.17 19:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
My idea was to not actually reward with LP, but with some sort of stackable discount tokens. So if all you do is D plex, then you get nothing (looks at afk alt defensive plexers). But if you do both, you could actually make isk in a losing war.
I do like the OP's idea as well though.
-Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
100
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Posted - 2012.06.17 19:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
I like it in theory, however in practice I think we need to change some other stuff before we implement something like this. We need to make it harder to run plexes. At the moment it's just too easy to plex in some back end system 10 jumps from anywhere and get it very contested. That means it's easier to farm, because as everyone knows, defensive plexing can be done in any ship that can enter the plex.
That's a worst case scenario mind you, it could simply mean that people actually flock to the most contested systems and deplex them, meaning that the only ones that actually get taken are the ones that attacking players can actually maintain a presence in, and thus you won't see systems 7-8 jumps from the nearest attacker's home system going vulnerable and not getting deplexed. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
Defiant Legacy
79
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Posted - 2012.06.19 15:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Getting no LP for defending a plex is not a bug, it is a feature.
The fact that there is a reduced incentive to defend a plex gives the side with less pilots etc. at least some chances to capture a system. Furthermore the docking denial is a strong incentive to defend plexes if you have a basis in the system. If you don't have a basis, then why should you care about a system? |
Hurtado Soneka
State Protectorate
Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2012.06.19 15:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
I like the idea, a good way to divert pilots to where they are really needed and thus will encourage more pvp and stop the rate of system flipping. |
BolsterBomb
Bane Inc
INQUISITION.
89
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Posted - 2012.06.19 16:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
I like the idea.
I think some sort of reward needs to be implemented to defensive plex if they do not add a rolling back timer. IN theory there should be no reward because if you dont defend you lose your systems
However in the limited time of the new FW what we see is simply a stale mate of systems being flipped back and forth with no real "umph" into holding systems enough for anything beyond lvl 2 war zone control (except minmatar, but I dont think CCP intended for 1/4 of their fw players to roll over)
The biggest problem I see in FW is simple:
We have a bunch of people that simply do not care about the new sov mechanics and just want to pew
IMO these people are valuable and detrimental to FW players that actually are fighting in the way FW is now.
To try and get people to defensive plex is ridiculous. I would like to see a change where if you ran out an offensive pelxer the timer starts rolling back. This should help substantially. Especially when people spend 3 hours chasing friken mini farmers out of our plexes.
I think a simple change like that first would make a lot of difference before instituting rewards.
Brig General
of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General
of The Gallente Federation |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D
Defiant Legacy
38
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Posted - 2012.06.19 16:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
I thought the OP idea would be good - I don't like getting nothing for capping a defensive plex - but I think I've changed my mind now.
If both sides get 100% (attackers) or 75% (defenders) for plexing a nearly vulnerable system, what is stopping both sides leaving it at that stage?
I mean, both sides are getting plenty of LP. Why go ahead and finish the system off? Or defend it down to lower levels?
There should be reasons to defend a system. I don't think defensive LP gains are the answer though. |
Chav Queen
whips chains and ballgags
Care Factor
14
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Posted - 2012.06.19 16:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think all plexing should be rewarded both ofensive and defensive.
The amount of reward should be dependent on how contested the system is.
So if your solo and looking for quite plexing in a quite system you can earn some LP but not at a good rate atleast untill you have plexed the system quite heavily and by that time you will have attracted attention.
If you want high reward plexing then you must go to the most highly contested systems and of course take the bigger risks.
The one problem this leaves is it can be abused by both sides simply plexing and not actully flipping the system. Some thing needs to be put in place that makes capturing a plex depremental to the other sides gain and thus make it vital to interdict the enemies plexing.
One idea I had was that once a system becomes contested all the LP from both offensive and defensive plexes goes into a kind of bank. This bank of LP buillds up and up as both sides fight and plex.
The bank pays out all the LP to the attcking militia if they capture the system or it pays out to the defedning militia if they uncontest the system.
I know its abit far out but hey. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
83
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Posted - 2012.06.19 17:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
A couple more concepts:
Defensive could have a 'level up' system. If you do 1 defensive plex, the level is at a base rate. But after 20 or something (insert appropriate number) You will rank up and receive more LP. etc. etc. This would give incentive to a certain group of players to dedicate their time to defensive.
The level up system could also be Solar System based. As in : Player X has done 47 Defensive plex's in Tama, for instance. This would be the incentive to take that system all the way back to stable.
The LP could have a 'save for corp' or 'save for pilot' option. Corps who participate more would also receive some sort of accumulated bonus.
I think CCP wanted to have the isk faucet on at half volume. I think in some respects, they might consider the current mechanics to be "Working as Intended" *as far as the isk/economy is concerned* I know their biggest issue would be the impact of essentially double the LP hitting the market. Perhaps less LP for offensive plexing could offset this. |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
194
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Posted - 2012.06.19 19:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
To remove the farm and make FW competitive again (mash-up of stuff from all over):
- Make system sovereignty truly matter .. pew related benefits (ex. repair costs) rather than carebear related .. high'ish benefits, enough to want to aggressively pursue 'attackers'. Docking denial is part of system upgrade path.
- Defensive plexing is removed .. timers/spawns/whatever reset over time on their own, defenders job is to kill and/or drive off 'attackers' .. at least attacking one can spend time killing crosses, babysitting navy however .. 
- Steal the LP payout system from Incursions .. if payout only happens on flip, farming will become dampened.
- Make benefit of warzone control 'localized'. Instead of getting discounts in each and every system with high enough WZC, use it as a scaling mechanism allowing individual systems to become ATM's/Payout centres (ex. 1-10 systems + upgrades = LP bonuses in 3 systems, 11-20 + upgrades = LP bonuses in 5 systems).
Makes aggressively defending what is probably home systems an imperative to keep the ISK faucet opened .. problem is which systems are chosen, perhaps a militia wide election through interface of all eligible systems.
**- The more systems that are controlled the more VP is needed for flips, taking that last system should be a monumental task.
**- The fewer systems that are controlled the fewer VP is needed for flips, coming back from the grave should not require one to dig ones way to China.
- Lastly, reintroduce 0.5 requirement for individuals/corps joining militias but keep it at 0.0 for alliances ... alts are a scourge.
** Those two can be augmented with VP bonus gains in border systems (adjacent to hostile) and notification about plex size and location when attack occurs to create a front like scenario. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
470
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Posted - 2012.06.19 19:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think this takes away the only thing that favors the side with fewer systems.
This proposal makes it so that the defending side will have a reduced incentive to defend plexes in pvp. The economic attitude will be let the enemy finsih cappign some plexes in our systems. After all the more they contest the system the more money we make by running defensive plexes later when they are not around.
Right no with no reward for defensive plexing the defenders have a considerable incentive to drive a plexer out before he captures the plex. That is drive him out in pvp. Because if he lets the attacker actually capture the plex they are in effect punished by having to orbit a button for no gain or keep getting steps closer to losing the system.
The no lp for defensive plexing is one of the better mechanics in this expansion.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
84
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Posted - 2012.06.19 20:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
@Cearain
I get what your saying, and more or less think you are right.
To me the issue is that:
No matter how immersed people are into FW or RP, EVE is still a GAME. You log in and want some form of entertainment.
Defensive is: Not Fun, Not Rewarding. I think the long term projected outcome of those two primary attributes is just not good.
The math would be: Not Fun + Not Rewarding = Do Something Else.
On a similar topic. I think Lockout + Move Out = Moving On for some players as well.
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Ashriban Kador
Amarrian Retribution
Amarr 7th Fleet
3
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Posted - 2012.06.20 16:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
A silly idea:
1: Remove the ability to donate LPs to the iHub.
2: Make completed Defensive Complexes put LPs into that Sytems iHub at the same rate Offensive Complexes do. (Possibly less depending on balance)
3: At no point does the defender get any LPs himself though.
4: ???
5: Profit. (Once enough plexes throughout held systems are taken.)
Your goals may align with some ... and with others, collide with the force of suns. |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D
Defiant Legacy
39
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Posted - 2012.06.22 16:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ashriban Kador wrote:A silly idea:
1: Remove the ability to donate LPs to the iHub.
2: Make completed Defensive Complexes put LPs into that Sytems iHub at the same rate Offensive Complexes do. (Possibly less depending on balance)
3: At no point does the defender get any LPs himself though.
4: ???
5: Profit. (Once enough plexes throughout held systems are taken.)
I quite like that idea.
Players gain LP for themselves via PVP and offensive plexing. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
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Posted - 2012.06.22 17:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:@Cearain
I get what your saying, and more or less think you are right.
To me the issue is that:
No matter how immersed people are into FW or RP, EVE is still a GAME. You log in and want some form of entertainment.
Defensive is: Not Fun, Not Rewarding. I think the long term projected outcome of those two primary attributes is just not good.
The math would be: Not Fun + Not Rewarding = Do Something Else.
On a similar topic. I think Lockout + Move Out = Moving On for some players as well.
Fun and rewarding are 2 diffferent things.
Defensive plexing is not fun and adding rewards will not make it more fun. (it will just make it rewarding.)
I do not think ccp should reward the activities that are not fun. They should reward the activities that are fun. Pvp is fun and should be rewarding.
The current mechanics do reward you to defend defensive plexes in pvp. By defending them in pvp instead of waiting for the enemy to complete the capture of the plex you are rewarded with keeping the system at the same level without having to orbit a button. I guess it would be more accurate to say that you are punished for not defending your plexes in pvp by having to orbit a button to keep the system, but it has the same effect.
If you don't want to defensive plex then don't. The game will be much better if people don't do so much defensive plexing anyway.
The game will be much more exciting if all the systems are closer to flipping. All the militias will benefit if they can occassionally flip a ton of systems get to tier 5 cash out then let the cycle begin again. Staying stagnant around tier 3 becasue everyone is defensive plexing is bad for faction war as a whole.
I want mechanics that yield lots of pvp and big dramatic flips not mechanics that reward holing up and orbitting buttons in systems where your enemies can't even dock.
In sum defensive plexing is not fun so ccp shouldn't reward it.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
156
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Posted - 2012.06.23 04:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
In sum defensive plexing is not fun so ccp shouldn't reward it.
Thing is, if you do not defend at all, your enemy gets systems and if they shoot bunker they have one system less places where to farm lp.
So if you want to farms a lot, you need to defend on other side too, to get your farm going on, other option is to flip sytem all over again between two militias, but who is willing to shoot bunker over and over again.
It takes some more time to find out how this system start to work, people are already noticed that too much attack plexing may cause troubles if you want to farm for ever.
Least thing you can do is to let enemy defend freely (if they are so stupid that want to do that) , other option is to make your militia members to understand that there is no point to shoot bunkers before you want tier5 lp shop, you can still farm plexes in vulnerable systems.
Let your enemy take all systems, farm those to vulnerable and more, save lp, then on some point, shoot all bunkers, cash all lp from tier5 lp shop.
aftert that change to another militia and repeat ! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Cearain wrote:
In sum defensive plexing is not fun so ccp shouldn't reward it.
Thing is, if you do not defend at all, your enemy gets systems and if they shoot bunker they have one system less places where to farm lp. So if you want to farms a lot, you need to defend on other side too, to get your farm going on, other option is to flip sytem all over again between two militias, but who is willing to shoot bunker over and over again. It takes some more time to find out how this system start to work, people are already noticed that too much attack plexing may cause troubles if you want to farm for ever. Least thing you can do is to let enemy defend freely (if they are so stupid that want to do that) , other option is to make your militia members to understand that there is no point to shoot bunkers before you want tier5 lp shop, you can still farm plexes in vulnerable systems. Let your enemy take all systems, farm those to vulnerable and more, save lp, then on some point, shoot all bunkers, cash all lp from tier5 lp shop. aftert that change to another militia and repeat !
I think you are right in most of what you say. Like you say it needs more time, but it seems that faction war may end up flipping from one extreme to another. I think this is actually very good for faction war as a whole.
For the amarr its pretty obvious that our plan should be to not defensive plex but instead do what you say. Offensive plex systems but not flip them until we are ready to flip enough to get to tier 5 add a few extra systems for good measure.
I think the only reason we are not doing that already is just that allot of people are running on momentum from the old rules and still think in terms of flipping systems whenever you can. The math makes it so clear that you shouldn't do this, that I think its just a matter of time before we start to develop a winning strategy.
Gallente and Caldari is a bit more complicated. I would think again you will end up with many systems close to flipping on both sides and then the massive fighting will happen to see who can get to tier five first. Once a faction hits tier 5 there will be a major cash out of lp and then the side that didn't get there will slowly start to stage a comeback. Then we will see the sort of fliping of systems I anticipate and hope for on the amarr minmatar front.
If this is how it plays out then I think I really like it. Its not that people will just let the other side take over. They will want to fight in the plexes to keep the higher tiers for as long as possible. But the war will not be won by a boring defensive plex grind. Moreover there will always be allot of systems close to flipping meaning it will be more spread out and dynamic than just a slow grind on frontlines.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
215
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Posted - 2012.06.23 15:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
I think any system where it makes more sense not to gain systems than it does to take them is fundamentally flawed. CCP really needs to remove the upgrade level points for the tiers. If there are 80 systems and you have 65+ then you're T5. That would lead more people to both offensively and defensively plex to keep or gain systems. Individual systems could still be upgraded for the benefits in those systems (more slots, etc.), but wouldn't count to the overall points.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
475
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:I think any system where it makes more sense not to gain systems than it does to take them is fundamentally flawed. CCP really needs to remove the upgrade level points for the tiers. If there are 80 systems and you have 65+ then you're T5. That would lead more people to both offensively and defensively plex to keep or gain systems. Individual systems could still be upgraded for the benefits in those systems (more slots, etc.), but wouldn't count to the overall points.
I'm not sure your first sentence makes sense.
Why do you want the game design to force people to defensive plex? Its boring and will just lead to the winning side solidifying their lead indefinitely - aka stagnation.
IMO a big reason null sec is so boring is because there is little incentive to go take over new space. Its much better economically to just sit in the space you have and farm it. That leads to the boring null sec we have today. I hope ccp doesn't mirror that here in faction war by rewarding defensive plexing.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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