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Advice for a new BS pilot - looking at Machariel

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KardelSharpeye Gallente Totally Abstract O X I D E	Posted - 2009.12.10 20:14:00 - [31] Edited by: KardelSharpeye on 10/12/2009 20:14:07 Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: KardelSharpeye Originally by: Seishi Maru Do not touch a machariel until you have both BS skills at V and T2 guns with nearly maxed skills (around 10M sp on gunnery alone). What a horrible advice so he should just use a cane for 3-4 months or sit in a station? Its not pvp where its unwise to take something so expensive without proper skills all you need is enough tank and all the dps you can get and the mach has got the dps. there is somethign called maesltrom to use while that. And he won get benneffits engouh from the ship before that. not enoguh tooffset the HIGH risk of loosign such a ship with low SP. Yeah missions are very very risky thats why no one does them, especially with new characters they cant even think about lvl 4's without 10mil sp your totally right. /sarcasm Yes he will get the benefits he did say hes geting both bs skills to 4 and large projectile to 4 which means if he can do them in a maelstrom he can do them in a mach. He gets increased dps and increased falloff which transaltes into additional dps also high agility enables him to move around better which means he gets the dps on sooner and can get away if necesary, which in 99% of the cases wont be as DPS>Tank in missions as long as you have enough tank and he has enough tank.
Kenz Rider Tesserae	Posted - 2009.12.10 21:26:00 - [32] What about upping the damage on your cane? Shield tank, T2 guns, 3x faction gyro and missile launchers. You can get decent DPS out of missiles with a few hundred thousand SP.
Drazin DawnTreader Cutthroat Mercenary Corp	Posted - 2009.12.10 22:26:00 - [33] Setting up a Mach and Mael with similar setups yields similar results. The Mach, is more agile and slightly faster and gets a little over 120 DPS more due to its extra low slots. 1,131 vs 1,005. The extra dps also comes with extra alpha. 14,120 vs 12,469. The Mach also gets better base range. 96km vs 74km (unfortunetly it cant target beyond 77km to use the added range without additional modules or gang bonuses) The Maelstrom gets much more tank however. 3,160 vs 1,592 The Mach uses more faction modules and costs nearly a billion isk more. Personally, I would prefer the much more powerful tank for when things go wrong over the slightly better damage and speed. Plus I am cheap and prefer the more isk efficient Maelstrom.
Kithran	Posted - 2009.12.10 22:27:00 - [34] Originally by: Kenz Rider What about upping the damage on your cane? Shield tank, T2 guns, 3x faction gyro and missile launchers. You can get decent DPS out of missiles with a few hundred thousand SP. The damage on the cane will be going up anyway - it will have T2 guns before I'm in the Mach for example. I've tried a passive shield cane (still have it fully fitted sat in a hanger) but preferred the armor tanked cane. It could be that I had too much tank on it, certainly it wasn't any faster than the armour tanked cane. Also I tend to take my cane into low sec and wormholes so I'm avoiding faction mods on it. The Mach will be high sec only. Kithran
Dursun Idris	Posted - 2009.12.11 07:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader Setting up a Mach and Mael with similar setups yields similar results. The Mach, is more agile and slightly faster and gets a little over 120 DPS more due to its extra low slots. 1,131 vs 1,005. The extra dps also comes with extra alpha. 14,120 vs 12,469. The Mach also gets better base range. 96km vs 74km (unfortunetly it cant target beyond 77km to use the added range without additional modules or gang bonuses) The Maelstrom gets much more tank however. 3,160 vs 1,592 The Mach uses more faction modules and costs nearly a billion isk more. Personally, I would prefer the much more powerful tank for when things go wrong over the slightly better damage and speed. Plus I am cheap and prefer the more isk efficient Maelstrom. You're doing it wrong. Beauty of mach is it's efficiency with AC's at good ranges. Not a low slot and better alpha with arties. They are two different ships that have two different roles.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.12.11 08:01:00 - [36] Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader Setting up a Mach and Mael with similar setups yields similar results. The Mach, is more agile and slightly faster and gets a little over 120 DPS more due to its extra low slots. 1,131 vs 1,005. The extra dps also comes with extra alpha. 14,120 vs 12,469. The Mach also gets better base range. 96km vs 74km (unfortunetly it cant target beyond 77km to use the added range without additional modules or gang bonuses) The Maelstrom gets much more tank however. 3,160 vs 1,592 The Mach uses more faction modules and costs nearly a billion isk more. Personally, I would prefer the much more powerful tank for when things go wrong over the slightly better damage and speed. Plus I am cheap and prefer the more isk efficient Maelstrom. Artie Mach? Have you checked the bonuses at all? ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
Ignitious Hellfury Minmatar Republic Military Skool HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.12.11 08:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Dors Venabily Edited by: Dors Venabily on 10/12/2009 08:37:01 Originally by: Ignitious Hellfury ITT: ebayer - isk > brains Soo everyone that saved up for a faction bship and is asking for a fit before he takes it out so he doesn't **** up and loose it must have bought the isk on ebay. Riiight Its not 2005 anymore. Isk is available even to newer folks. You're joking right? Firstly it's absurd how profitable lvl 4 missions in high sec are as is. ASIDE from that, if someone is ASKING how to fit their BILLION isk ship they don't deserve to fly it. They are expensive because they were meant for people who know what they are doing, not nubs who barely know how to fit their canes.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.12.11 08:10:00 - [38] I disagree, everyone who runs lvl 4's and has no clue on the game should fly faction fitted faction BS's. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 09:43:00 - [39] Fly a Mael for a bit, get used to large weaps, then you can at least get T2 ACs done for your Mach. LSB/3 hardeners/AB/TC + 3 gyro/2TE + T2 ambit/couple of other rigs should work for a Mael. I have a mach print but can't play atm, looking at 4 gyro/2 TE/DCU + t2 ambit/2x poly setup atm, seems like it should work ok.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2009.12.11 10:44:00 - [40] Buhu my jelously of high sec bears means i have to be a douche to them when they ask for fittings etc, get over yourselfs! Anyone who can grind lvl 4s, and has enough spare isk to want to do sed lvl 4 missions in a fancy billions isk machariel, let them and share the knowlage. An arty mach sounds extremly viable for missions, with the machs speed and agility putting an arty setup on with an afterburner makes alot of sense - 800-1k dps from arty and sentrys at upto and over 50kms is not to be scoffed at!!! super long rof and mega alpha make using RF ammo all the time a isk effitiant reality. Id be fitting my next mach like this for missions: [Machariel, New Setup 1] 3x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Domination Tracking Enhancer 2x True Sansha Power Diagnostic System (needed for fitting) Damage Control II Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster 2x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 7x 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Corpii A-Type Small Nosferatu (because it theres nothing else usful to put here) 2x Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard II Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Sentry IIs to taste x4 600 m/s speed, 13-14k alpha (not that you would actually group all 7 guns!) 850 dps tank without crystals 1k dps to 35km with 85k falloff and sentry support to 55km. definitly will work very well. Re-group guns to one single group when everything else is dead in that misison with the cathedral, for boner inspiring damage hit logs (20k+ should be doable on a good volly).
Kithran	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:29:00 - [41] Edited by: Kithran on 11/12/2009 11:29:08 Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader Setting up a Mach and Mael with similar setups yields similar results. The Mach, is more agile and slightly faster and gets a little over 120 DPS more due to its extra low slots. 1,131 vs 1,005. The extra dps also comes with extra alpha. 14,120 vs 12,469. The Mach also gets better base range. 96km vs 74km (unfortunetly it cant target beyond 77km to use the added range without additional modules or gang bonuses) The Maelstrom gets much more tank however. 3,160 vs 1,592 The Mach uses more faction modules and costs nearly a billion isk more. Personally, I would prefer the much more powerful tank for when things go wrong over the slightly better damage and speed. Plus I am cheap and prefer the more isk efficient Maelstrom. I've been playing with EFT using the skills I'm planning on having when I get the Mach. Using an AC fit for both and the same tank modules on both I get the following: (All comparisons are Mach:Mael) Speed 510/287 (a bit more than slightly faster) Alignment 13.2s/22.8s (a lot more agile) Cap 6m 36s/6m 25s DPS 813/739 Alpha 2459/2342 Range 4.1+59/3.7+36 (a lot more falloff thus effectively more dps) Sustained Def 348/394 Reinforced Def 538/669 Signature 340/460 (this combined with the far greater speed should mitigate a lot of the tank benefit from the mael) Bear in mind that the Mach is actually faster and more agile than the cane I currently use which has a sustained tank of 131 (though admitedly its sig is only 240). I think if I can do a lvl 4 mission in the cane I should be able to do the same mission in the Mach. The only missions I can't do at the moment are those where I don't have the dps to break enemy tanks. This is the main reason I'm looking at the Mach - because I can treat it like a big cane. Kithran
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:38:00 - [42] Originally by: Von Kapiche Fly a Mael for a bit, get used to large weaps, then you can at least get T2 ACs done for your Mach. LSB/3 hardeners/AB/TC + 3 gyro/2TE + T2 ambit/couple of other rigs should work for a Mael. I have a mach print but can't play atm, looking at 4 gyro/2 TE/DCU + t2 ambit/2x poly setup atm, seems like it should work ok. dude you should update you eft then cus there is a stacking penalty on those falloff mods. i was thinkin the same thing till i fitted out my tempest and fell about 40km short on falloff lol "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up"
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 12:06:00 - [43] Originally by: Vanthropy dude you should update you eft then cus there is a stacking penalty on those falloff mods. i was thinkin the same thing till i fitted out my tempest and fell about 40km short on falloff lol I have 3 ambits in my current Mael, first post Dominion EFT gave me some eye-popping falloff & I started bouncing around with glee. OFC then it got fixed... but still 2 TE and an ambit seem to be worthwhile. Despite reporting it on sisi months ago, TC scripts still don't add falloff? that's pretty useless, forget that idea then. I'm actually not too sure what I'd use for the spare rig slots on a mission Mael now; I don't need any more tank, astro rigs won't make it any less of a brick, and there's no proj rigs that wouldn't be stacked to hell. Drone speed? that's getting desperate...
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.12.11 12:21:00 - [44] This is how I'd run a Mach: [Machariel, PVE shield] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Large Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Valkyrie II x5 Warrior II x5 ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.12.11 12:39:00 - [45] And this would be my Mael: [Maelstrom, PVE] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Explosion Dampening Field II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L Large Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Valkyrie II x5 Warrior II x5 ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
Katabrok First Caldari Apukaray Security	Posted - 2009.12.11 14:43:00 - [46] Originally by: rodensteiner Now, I don't run missions and don't know what it takes to tank Angel's Extra. bonus room, but when I plug that deadspace Macharial fit into EFT, it tells me 374dps Omni Defense. That strikes me as being incredibly low. Or is that really all that it takes to tank AE Bonus, which I hear is one of the hardest, if not the hardest L4 mission event? I'm assuming you'd have to be careful what you aggro, and the dps output of the ship would help kill most stuff before it can get close enough to you to really hurt. If you¦re refering to my setup, yes, it appears to be a little low for the bonus room in AE. But you have to remeber that I'm flying at 570 m/s, and I have a 340 m signature radius, reducing the incoming damage from missiles. In reality, I get more damage from heavy missiles than cruises and torps. Even counting on it, I have to pulse a little the shield booster because my cap is almost ending, and then the gank overcomes the need for the tank. Kata Uma vez flamengo, sempre flamengo.
Drazin DawnTreader Cutthroat Mercenary Corp	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Kithran Speed 510/287 (a bit more than slightly faster) Alignment 13.2s/22.8s (a lot more agile) Cap 6m 36s/6m 25s DPS 813/739 Alpha 2459/2342 Range 4.1+59/3.7+36 (a lot more falloff thus effectively more dps) Sustained Def 348/394 Reinforced Def 538/669 Signature 340/460 (this combined with the far greater speed should mitigate a lot of the tank benefit from the mael) You say you are using AC's but are only getting 813 DPS? What are you using 3 of them? With AC's the Mach should be close to 1400 DPS and I have Frigates with better Sustained DPS than that. And I dont even want to know how you managed 22s align time on the Mael. You asked for advice, And that advice is to fly a cheaper battleship until your skills and abilities are good enough to fly an expensive ship like the mach. I mean damn... even with "No Skills" selected in EFT my setup is twice as good as yours.
Kithran	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:52:00 - [48] Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader Edited by: Drazin DawnTreader on 11/12/2009 15:29:00 Originally by: Kithran Speed 510/287 (a bit more than slightly faster) Alignment 13.2s/22.8s (a lot more agile) Cap 6m 36s/6m 25s DPS 813/739 Alpha 2459/2342 Range 4.1+59/3.7+36 (a lot more falloff thus effectively more dps) Sustained Def 348/394 Reinforced Def 538/669 Signature 340/460 (this combined with the far greater speed should mitigate a lot of the tank benefit from the mael) You say you are using AC's but are only getting 813 DPS? What are you using 3 of them? With AC's the Mach should be close to 1400 DPS and I have Frigates with better Sustained DEF than that. And I dont even want to know how you managed 22s align time on the Mael. You asked for advice, And that advice is to fly a cheaper battleship until your skills and abilities are good enough to fly an expensive ship like the mach. I mean damn... even with "No Skills" selected in EFT my setup is twice as good as yours. Edit The Identical setups I posted are for comparison. Could have just as easily fit both ships with Autos for the comparison. Point is, I could fit both ships with jello brand armor plates and wet-noodle rocket launchers and get better results than this guy.If he is intent on flying a Mach, by all means be my guest. But dont ask for advice if you are already determined to ignore it. Well post a fitting then (something you haven't done yet despite what you put above). I haven't ignored your advice - just said it doesn't add up as far as I can see. For reference I used 7 (or 8 on the Mael) 800mm Heavy Scout Repeating Artillery I with EMP L. Mach had 3 RF Gyros & 3 RF TEs. Mael had 3 RF Gyros, 1 RF TE & 1 FN Tracking computer scripted for optimal range (to partly make up for the lack of lows). The tank in both cases was identical (CN Shield boost amp, 2 x CN Invuln, Gist-B large shield booster, DCU II) I'm really curious as to how you manage 1400dps with ACs on a Mach given even with All Level V, T2 guns and RF ammo it still tops out at 1148 dps. Similary even with all 5 the mael still has an align time of 20.1s with the AB on. Kithran
Drazin DawnTreader Cutthroat Mercenary Corp	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:59:00 - [49] You will not recieve any of my fits, you couldn't fit them anyway. You should realize that if you can't figure out how I Get the numbers I get, then you probably dont have the skills or the experience to do what you are planning to do. Oh and 1400 DPS... you do use drones and Gyros right?
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:12:00 - [50] Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader You will not recieve any of my fits, you couldn't fit them anyway. You should realize that if you can't figure out how I Get the numbers I get, then you probably dont have the skills or the experience to do what you are planning to do. Oh and 1400 DPS... you do use drones and Gyros right? and heat....
Kithran	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:41:00 - [51] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader You will not recieve any of my fits, you couldn't fit them anyway. You should realize that if you can't figure out how I Get the numbers I get, then you probably dont have the skills or the experience to do what you are planning to do. Oh and 1400 DPS... you do use drones and Gyros right? and heat.... So on a thread where it was initally stated that someone was looking for fits and planning on using it for high sec pve you suggest using a fit with overheated guns (that would only last maybe a minute or so before burning out even with max skills) and to cap it off you then refuse to provide that fit, highly constructive. Kithran
Lady Spank Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:48:00 - [52] Originally by: Kithran Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader You will not recieve any of my fits, you couldn't fit them anyway. You should realize that if you can't figure out how I Get the numbers I get, then you probably dont have the skills or the experience to do what you are planning to do. Oh and 1400 DPS... you do use drones and Gyros right? and heat.... So on a thread where it was initally stated that someone was looking for fits and planning on using it for high sec pve you suggest using a fit with overheated guns (that would only last maybe a minute or so before burning out even with max skills) and to cap it off you then refuse to provide that fit, highly constructive. Kithran He's just buttehuert because your a noob using an expensive ship and he thinks it's wrong. Originally by: Tirus Sinobi Your response has set your intelligence barrier so low that anything you post from here on that breaches it, will have to be considered posted by somebody else.
Drazin DawnTreader Cutthroat Mercenary Corp	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:55:00 - [53] over heating was not a factor in my setups. You seem to have your own ideas on how you want to fit your ships. My setups require perfect fitting skills because thats how I trained my character(s). You can fly a 1bil faction BS and not be capable of fitting it for its optimal performance if you want, Its your Isk. My advice to you since the beginning was to fly a Maelstrom that performs just as well and tanks twice as much while you get comfortable with the size and performance of a BS vs a hurricane. You are intent on using the mach, thats your perogative and my assistance in this matter is finished.

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