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Bodega Cat
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Posted - 2009.12.16 22:20:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Lord Gorandus
I think the main thing here is your only seeing it from one side. You see a gank that does not guarantee you profit as not worth executing. But if it is a guaranteed profit doesn't that mean its no risk? What was your whole complaint about mission running? No risk? It seems to me that you simply want the same. NO RISK and thats fine.. Go after a bigger target is all I am saying. With the current insurance payout the risk is far to small to be worth mentioning if you do it right.
If we're talking about not seeing it from the other side, consider if the gankers math is wrong. Or the loot actually didn't cover the spread. Consider if someone sets a trap for the gankers to think its easy but it turns out not to be, think of his reputation when concord shows up, kills him with his pants down, and yet you survive. Believe it or not, thats a risk for the pirates, looking like a fool. Sometimes, thats worth more than weeks worth of ISK. I don't really expect you to think or relate in this way again but the point deserves to be raised that just because you don't perceive it as risk, doesn't mean others don't.
Additionally, consider that every time you sell wares from your missions or minerals you liquidated from drops, that those end up in the hands of the very pirates who have the right to shoot at you with. Can you accept responsibility for that in part? Did you think that risk through entirely when you actively participated in this grand dance we call EVE? You sell minerals and guns that are used to blow up people, those guns deserve the chance to be pointed at you sooner or later.
Out smart, and be prepared, and you'll be fine, I promise.
Note: I am not a ganker.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.16 23:04:00 -
[62]
Originally by: A'ruhn
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Furthermore, you're "risking" getting booted from highsec out to the lawless land where the pirates and griefbears roam by the dozen.
In other words, going out where the real PvPers roam and getting bent over the table with your trousers down.
Suicide ganking "defenseless" miners/missioners, is seriously risky business, amirite?
I can tell you for a fact that Liang is perfectly able to deal with living where the "real PVPers" roam.
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A'ruhn
Caldari
Nation of Muppets
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Posted - 2009.12.16 23:08:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: A'ruhn
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Furthermore, you're "risking" getting booted from highsec out to the lawless land where the pirates and griefbears roam by the dozen.
In other words, going out where the real PvPers roam and getting bent over the table with your trousers down.
Suicide ganking "defenseless" miners/missioners, is seriously risky business, amirite?
I can tell you for a fact that Liang is perfectly able to deal with living where the "real PVPers" roam.
Not directed at Liang per-se, the quote was just spot on for a good point to make to all the wannabe gankers that will read this:
There are bigger fish out there, and to them you ain't nothing but a mildly embarassing stain on the mattress.
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2009.12.16 23:46:00 -
[64]
definetly need to make it so if your ship gets popped by concord you get no insurance. Only makes sense.
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Marcus Alkhaar
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2009.12.17 00:02:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Marcus Alkhaar on 17/12/2009 00:01:58
No insurance at all would be BADASS 
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.12.17 00:10:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Marcus Alkhaar
Edited by: Marcus Alkhaar on 17/12/2009 00:01:58
No insurance at all would be BADASS
Let's think about this a moment. Let's suppose that your average 6 month old pilot makes 10M ISK/hr running their L4 mission. This seems a bit generous really. Now, they go out and buy a battlecruiser and it costs 80M to fit. Then they promptly get their ass handed to them. Now they have to grind for eight hours to replace this loss.
Eight Hours. That's 2-3 days easily to replace a BC loss. #RUFUXINGSRS?!? No thanks.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Halcyon Ingenium
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Posted - 2009.12.17 00:26:00 -
[67]
Hmm, well, at least I know what to manufacture now.
__________
I'm just an ordinary Caldari trying to turn an ISK. What's wrong with that? |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.17 01:51:00 -
[68]
OH NO! Carebears have to move **** in smaller amounts!!!
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Friends Forever |
Trader20
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Posted - 2009.12.17 03:42:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Trader20 on 17/12/2009 03:44:39
Hey alpha-tards, I refer you to this thread. (Geez you think you tards would have gotten the point in the last 3 years)
HP Increase
Main Points:
òShip hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors
òShield extenders and plates increased by 50%
Repeat after me: DPS over Alpha
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Roland Thorne
Dark Sun Collective
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.12.17 04:42:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Trader20
Edited by: Trader20 on 17/12/2009 03:53:54
Hey alpha-tards, I refer you to this thread. (Geez you think you tards would have gotten the point in the last 3 years)
HP Increase
Main Points:
òShip hitpoint increase, about 50% for tech 1 and about 25% on tech 2. A bit more on battlecruises/command ships and destroyers/interdictors
òShield extenders and plates increased by 50%
Repeat after me: DPS over Alpha
Edit: Hey Liang, find that post you made about dps being more important then alpha. It's about the only post I agree with you on.
Look at the date. Its dated 2006. Already happened.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.12.17 04:48:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Trader20
Repeat after me: DPS over Alpha
Edit: Hey Liang, find that post you made about dps being more important then alpha. It's about the only post I agree with you on.
The interesting question is at what point you measure DPS. Consider the Tempest mentioned above with RF EMP. It gets 975 DPS with a 12596 volley. Now consider a Hype with 1302 DPS and 5479 volley. When is damage advantageous for each ship?
T0: 12596 Tempest | 5479 Hype
T4: 12596 Tempest | 10958 Hype
T8: 12596 Tempest | 16437 Hype
T12: 12596 Tempest | 21916 Hype
T13: 25192 Tempest | 21916 Hype
Now, at T=1, the Tempest has almost thirteen thousand DPS. At T=Infinity, it has 975 DPS (lower, because you can't overheat that long). Anyway, DPS is king, but the context we're looking at right here is very much measuring the function over a specific interval.
And that's where alpha wins.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Molaichi
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Posted - 2009.12.17 04:59:00 -
[72]
I think the problem with insurance paying full suicide ganking money lies not with the insurance system...
but with the oversupply of minerals that keep the mineral prices at the absolute price floor.
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Kalnov
Gallente
Heron Industries
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Posted - 2009.12.17 05:48:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Molaichi
I think the problem with insurance paying full suicide ganking money lies not with the insurance system...
but with the oversupply of minerals that keep the mineral prices at the absolute price floor.
Believe me, if I did not get insurance while suicide ganking, I would still gank in a Dominix every day and not care. At the very most you're spending 100m on a Dominix. If you can't find a target worth ganking that's more than 200m (assuming half drops, I have no idea how the actual math works) then you fail at picking a system to gank in, or are impatient. Suicide ganking is for the patient only.
The only thing removal of insurance would do, is stop young (in eve-time) players from immediately starting. Even then, Thrashers can nuke a lot of stuff as-is and are dirt cheap.
What I'm saying is: people will suicide gank no matter what. Even if CCP changes stuff drastically, then everyone will fit ships to alpha everything, unless they somehow change that too.
If they do, then the game will have drastically changed and I'm not entirely sure if I'd be willing to play then. Not because suicide gank nerf, but because the other things that might come along with it.
But one thing to remember: CCP loves people like me. I use 3-4 accounts by myself to gank effectively. I'm not even very innovative in my methods. If you would like specifics, feel free to drop me a mail or convo me.
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Medytujacy w'Jita
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Posted - 2009.12.23 01:17:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Medytujacy w''Jita on 23/12/2009 01:20:36
Today i survive 3 solo bs kamikaze atack,sentry gedon with 10k ehp on my badger,smartbomb typhon and smartbomb raven with 20k ehp with new fit on my mk2 badger (medium shied rigs + chep named items in med low slots),funy is they cant kill badger mk2 who fly random to 20km,i reduce speed to 70 and approch gate like afk  no idea about tempest,but true i see a lot tempest as kamikadze ships,10min ago concord poped two tempest near jita...
After i start play in my new game (indy bait)i think is easy to survive vs solo bs if you have rational fit,probably 95% victims have fail fit in own industral so they die...
Ps.Alt post :) Cant say who is my bait ;P,why i do this? because i hate kamikaze.
PPs.Awesome profesion :) i like if they lose ships,a lot fun,good for market transaction and ship buliders ;),sorry for my poor English
Die kamikaze Die 
o7
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Otebski
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Posted - 2009.12.23 09:02:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Let's think about this a moment. Let's suppose that your average 6 month old pilot makes 10M ISK/hr running their L4 mission. This seems a bit generous really.
-Liang
UHM What?!
I am exactly 6 month old. I fly crap race for missions (minnie). Battleships are just a side step for me as i specilize in cruiser sized ships.
When missioning i get at very least (suboptimal mission) 5m per bounty period payment. Up to 10m (for AE, Blockade and other nice ones). So thats between 15 and 30m /h for just bounties. Can finish each mission in at most an hour adding another 5m on top. Doing them in low sec so getting about 12k LP an hour adding some 25m (good lp store). That is between 45 and 60m an hour exluding salvage and looting which i dont bother with.
Again. I am not even specilized in mission running. most of my skills are for cruiser/bc/hac pvp.
I was getting more than 10m an hour doing level 3s in passive cane (oh the painful memeories)
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.23 09:15:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Otebski
I fly crap race for missions (minnie).
This is not true. Welcome to Dominion. ;-)
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.12.23 09:52:00 -
[77]
For last time people. Removing insurance would do nothing good. Would only increase distance from the starters to thr older ones that can passively generate hundreds of milliong isk per day.
That will NOT happen. the only insurance change logic is remove from concord blow up ships. Will it stop suicide ganking? NO. But will make it more selective and less random try activity. Gankers would have to select more the targets and risk more isk on the process.
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Dray
Caldari
The Water Margin Tech
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Posted - 2009.12.23 10:28:00 -
[78]
To the people arguing there is not risk in suicide ganking, I used to suicide gank a lot and for me the biggest risk was always boredom, anyone here who has done it will tell you that it is not uncommon to sit for 3 hours or more and get nothing, that time is lost and you will never get it back, and more importantly it is time wasted, ie no isk made, but as I've pointed out before in the previous forum debates about suicide ganking, you can take away the insurance payout and up the sec hit and it will not stop suicide ganking.
Just so you understand, "IT WILL NOT STOP SUICIDE GANKING".
The reason for this is obvious, people will still pimp the living crap out of their ships and move their haulers full of expensive goodies without a second thought to the consequences, but the problem there is that CCP cannot fix stupid or lazy people.
Nerf stupidity and suicide ganking will stop, but thankfully this just isn't possible in the time scale of our lives and the life of the game, unless you can get CCP to boost evolution.
Back to the op and the topic, I'm going to have to get my tempest out and try it. 
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.12.23 10:37:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Dray
To the people arguing there is not risk in suicide ganking, I used to suicide gank a lot and for me the biggest risk was always boredom, anyone here who has done it will tell you that it is not uncommon to sit for 3 hours or more and get nothing, that time is lost and you will never get it back, and more importantly it is time wasted, ie no isk made, but as I've pointed out before in the previous forum debates about suicide ganking, you can take away the insurance payout and up the sec hit and it will not stop suicide ganking.
Just so you understand, "IT WILL NOT STOP SUICIDE GANKING".
The reason for this is obvious, people will still pimp the living crap out of their ships and move their haulers full of expensive goodies without a second thought to the consequences, but the problem there is that CCP cannot fix stupid or lazy people.
Nerf stupidity and suicide ganking will stop, but thankfully this just isn't possible in the time scale of our lives and the life of the game, unless you can get CCP to boost evolution.
Back to the op and the topic, I'm going to have to get my tempest out and try it.
the problem is not THAT type of suicide ganking. The problem is the random suicide ganking. The guy that just go pop miners in belts mining veldspar just tt make them get emo and leave game and LOOSE BASICALLY NOTHING doing that. Want to suicide your ship? Good suicide it.. but pay the price. That will make you suicide only targets WORTH suiciding.
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Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.23 16:53:00 -
[80]
who didint see this comming was as blind as a bat.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Dray
Caldari
The Water Margin Tech
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Posted - 2009.12.23 20:26:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
the problem is not THAT type of suicide ganking. The problem is the random suicide ganking. The guy that just go pop miners in belts mining veldspar just tt make them get emo and leave game and LOOSE BASICALLY NOTHING doing that. Want to suicide your ship? Good suicide it.. but pay the price. That will make you suicide only targets WORTH suiciding.
I know what you're saying, but the type of ganking you talk about there will never stop, period, unless CCP make it impossible to aggro anywhere in empire.
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Mr Yarrr
Black Rise Angels
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Posted - 2009.12.24 13:35:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Mr Yarrr on 24/12/2009 13:35:59
just a few things i'd like to point out, and hope havent been poionted out already as i havent got time to read every reply.
Surely if you're talking about getting off a second volley with 1400s before concord arrive, you'd be better off using 800s as they would do more damage over the same time.
ships like the abaddon and geddon are all selling well below insurance break even in jita, where as the tempest is selling above. i guess this doesnt make much difference to your profit if you're going for a t2 fit and picking your targets carefully how ever
still, i'm impressed by whats achieveable in 1 volley, i have 2 characters with minmitar bs5 :D
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.24 14:02:00 -
[83]
So, how long till CCP read this and nerfs Tempest back to manure for a couple of years again?
Quote:
Let's think about this a moment. Let's suppose that your average 6 month old pilot makes 10M ISK/hr running their L4 mission. This seems a bit generous really. Now, they go out and buy a battlecruiser and it costs 80M to fit. Then they promptly get their ass handed to them. Now they have to grind for eight hours to replace this loss.
Doing a L4 mission in a BC? Been there, done that but it's an huge waste of time.
Much better to zip thru L3s with it. In that case, losing a Passivecane or a Drake is downright impossible even overaggroing or going DC (or back to Hello Kitty online it is!)
-
Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and
http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.12.24 15:25:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
So, how long till CCP read this and nerfs Tempest back to manure for a couple of years again?
Quote:
Let's think about this a moment. Let's suppose that your average 6 month old pilot makes 10M ISK/hr running their L4 mission. This seems a bit generous really. Now, they go out and buy a battlecruiser and it costs 80M to fit. Then they promptly get their ass handed to them. Now they have to grind for eight hours to replace this loss.
Doing a L4 mission in a BC? Been there, done that but it's an huge waste of time.
Much better to zip thru L3s with it. In that case, losing a Passivecane or a Drake is downright impossible even overaggroing or going DC (or back to Hello Kitty online it is!)
people fail to realize almost NOTHIGN changed in fact on most tiem temepsts are worse for ganking. How? Before these changes an arty tempest could do 2 volleys in 0.6 and even 0.7 systems before concord arrival. Now it cannot Can only do 2 volleys with overheat, max skill at 0.5. So you get 75% more damage on first volley , but looses the secodn volley on a LOT of scenarios.
Its fare more powerful than before when on 0.8-1.0 systems. But weaker in 0.6 and 0.7 systems. So on average not much changed. Just the hype on the concept that makes much more people try it.
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.24 19:24:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Its fare more powerful than before when on 0.8-1.0 systems. But weaker in 0.6 and 0.7 systems. So on average not much changed. Just the hype on the concept that makes much more people try it.
You're not quite correct. They purified damage types, adjusted damage mod/rof by 75%, and increased base ammo damage.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.12.26 21:09:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Its fare more powerful than before when on 0.8-1.0 systems. But weaker in 0.6 and 0.7 systems. So on average not much changed. Just the hype on the concept that makes much more people try it.
You're not quite correct. They purified damage types, adjusted damage mod/rof by 75%, and increased base ammo damage.
-Liang
ok ok .. but YOU KNOW very well that peopel are whining and overreactign only because of the alpha changes.. not because of the SLIGHT increase in base damage. And taht alpha change as I said has 2 sides. On some situation where you could fire 2 salvos and now you cannot.. its weaker..
so on overal is not a HUUUGE boost to ganking as some say.
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Bouchement
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Posted - 2009.12.28 17:52:00 -
[87]
.
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WHOSE RESPONSIBLE THIS??
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.12.29 02:22:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Marcus Alkhaar
Edited by: Marcus Alkhaar on 17/12/2009 00:01:58
No insurance at all would be BADASS
Let's think about this a moment. Let's suppose that your average 6 month old pilot makes 10M ISK/hr running their L4 mission. This seems a bit generous really. Now, they go out and buy a battlecruiser and it costs 80M to fit. Then they promptly get their ass handed to them. Now they have to grind for eight hours to replace this loss.
Eight Hours. That's 2-3 days easily to replace a BC loss. #RUFUXINGSRS?!? No thanks.
-Liang
Now lets think about this one more step.
Right now a competent missionrunner makes about 50 mil an hour on his level 4 missions, total. A bit more of he's ambitious, a bit less if he's not.
This equates to insurance fraud of 2.5m per ship. If you refine your methods a bit, you can get this down to quite a bit less. This basically means there can't ever be a reasonable stock of ships for less than platinum delta + 2.5m or so(probably less, but hey, why not understate?).
The most expensive battlecruisers right now are about 30 mil. Add insurance and they're about 40 mil to buy. That means equipment is about 40 mil in your figures. Now remove the insurance cap and the initial cost will go down, the replacement cost go up - obviously. On some ships this would likely mean more than halving their cost, on others it'll just go down a bit. If replacement costs just went from 40 to 60 mil, initial cost went from 80 to 60 mil aswell.
So what would happen is noobs that are ambitious, read up, skill up and play slow are rewarded by keeping their ships. Noobs that are aggressive and bold are rewarded by faster and larger income. Noobs that have neglectable attentionspans and no recordable patience.... will find a more suited game.
I'm just not sure I can see the downsides to this?
On a less shippy perspective the removal of insurance would have lots of other consequences. Less faucets leading to a slower inflation leading to cheaper wares for noobs. A more flexible and active market, where you really are better of selling a ship than self destructing it and with prices based on supply and demand to a greater scale than artificial caps. A more varied playingfield (modulewise) by having tech 1 setups less attractive and expensive setups reasonable. A more varied spectra of ships as a frigate hull might actually be cheaper to replace than a battleship hull again. More incentive to fly t2 and t3 over t1. And lots and lots of other reasons.
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 758725
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.29 04:14:00 -
[89]
Originally by: NoNah
Right now a competent serious mission runner makes about 50 mil an hour on his level 4 missions, total. A bit more of he's ambitious, a bit less if he's not.
FTFY.
Quote:
This equates to insurance fraud of 2.5m per ship.
Not sure I follow how serious mission runners making 50M/hr means insurance fraud is 2.5M/ship. Presumably, you're referring to loot from missions injected into the mineral market?
Quote:
Now remove the insurance cap and the initial cost will go down, the replacement cost go up - obviously.
Replacement is something that happens repeatedly..... thus overall costs skyrocketed.
Quote:
Noobs that are aggressive and bold are rewarded by faster and larger income.
Income is hardly the problem here. The problem is that an insurance nerf utterly annihilates PVP. Let me fix the next part of your tirade for you...
Quote:
Noobs that have neglectable attentionspans are bold and risk their ships in PVP.... will find a more suited game.
Yeah, that reads a bit more like what'll happen.
Quote:
Less faucets leading to a slower inflation leading to cheaper wares for noobs.
Damage Control II - 600K ISK. Things are already cheap. I mean, I'm sorry, but maybe you missed that we're not having a period of drastic inflation in Eve. Even the econ dev blogs have said the worst that ever happened was extremely slight inflation. You're looking to fix things that simply aren't a problem - and possibly create one where previously one didn't exist.
Quote:
A more varied playingfield (modulewise) by having tech 1 setups less attractive and expensive setups reasonable.
Eve is a game where 2% more X on a module is a pretty big deal. T1 is already less attractive.
Quote:
A more varied spectra of ships as a frigate hull might actually be cheaper to replace than a battleship hull again.
They already are - from hull to fitting to rigs.
Quote:
More incentive to fly t2 and t3 over t1.
There's already tons of incentive to fly T2 and T3. In fact, I'd say the only things keeping T3 from overrunning us all is the loss of skillpoints and being slightly expensive. But... they're cheap enough that I (as an ISK deprived pirate that hates to run missions) am considering taking a pair into PVP.
TL;DR: NoNah, you are creating problems that don't actually exist, and trying to justify cost of living for everyone based on what serious mission runners make. When they're being serious.
Total.
Fail.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Hera Ominae
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Posted - 2009.12.29 06:56:00 -
[90]
Right now a competent missionrunner makes about 50 mil an hour on his level 4 missions, total. A bit more of he's ambitious, a bit less if he's not.
50 M isk per hour on lvl 4 missions? Suuuuure
With two 50 M SP, pure pvp skilled golems perhaps, but average player isn't fully pvp skilled, and they don't have two fully pvp skilled characters. Not even close. They fly faction bs or normal bs, and make that around 10-20 M ISK per hour at most.
Now, ppl are saying that you make easily 60 M ISK per hour with ratting in 0.0? Does your wallet blink often and say 20 M ISK every 20 minutes? No, it doesn't say that. Does it say that you got 10 M ISK every 20 minutes, no it doesn't usually even say that.
At these forums, ppl are exaggarating alot their hourly income.
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