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Nikita Stark	Posted - 2009.12.11 12:31:00 - [1] Heya folks. I'd like my fellow members of the Federal Defence Union to take some time to consider their objectives in this war. To this end I would like to share my perspective and invite others to do the same. The Caldari are a people capable of outstanding, beautiful and amazing achievements. Their ability to govern, protect and provide for their people is unsurpassed. The Federation and the Caldari State have very different ways. Where the State provides for the needs of the people and leads the way in all things, the Federation protects the people from outside influence and allows them to evolve to fortune or tragedy along their own path. The tide has turned for the Federal Defence Union. We suddenly have astonishing power and momentum. We have leapt forward like a raging animal. Set out to destroy those who have made us feel powerless. I will not be participating in the occupation of Caldari Sovereign territory. Instead my efforts will go towards securing Gallente Sovereign territory. I would not see the Caldari way become the only way, but I see no reason to attempt control over their systems and worlds. Thankyou for your time. Please consider your purpose before you proceed.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.12.11 13:23:00 - [2] You have my profound respect, pilot Stark. If only more pilots in both militias felt as you do. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Gemma Naquist Caldari Immortalis Licentia	Posted - 2009.12.11 13:31:00 - [3] Open channel: Hello, Ms. Stark. Thank you for those kind words. IÆve often thought that people of all governments had more in common then one might think. I wondered if perhaps there could be a galaxy without borders. I had a dream where Caldari and Gallente; Amarr and Minmatar strode across the stars, hand in hand towards a bright future. Then I turned twelve. The reality of the situation is that we do have some very key differences. I donÆt see them being worked out, even within our very extended lifetimes. The points of contention between the Gallente and the Caldari are many and subtle. The key factor to consider is our homeworld. Caldari, despite the minority Gallente population living there, is our homeworld. Do you see that as being ôsovereign Caldari territory?ö Your government does not. I wish you success in your endeavors. End Transmission
Seriphyn Inhonores Gallente Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.11 13:38:00 - [4] Pilot Naquist, you will find it is the Caldari who are the minority on Caldari Prime. It has been a Federal world for over a century. But that is a different argument for a different time. All pilots of the Federal Defence Union should remember, our primary enemy is the State Protectorate and the Caldari Providence Directorate, as well as their fascist leader, Tibus Heth. The people of the State are not valid targets. Civilians are never valid targets. However, retaliation is necessary. The State has shown us what it is capable of if they are allowed to take our sovereign territory away from us. They remove the voice of the people to replace it with an unwelcome corporate mechanism. They take away individual riches to contribute to the "greater whole", even though the collective in this face is a foreign government. We shall not let this conquest go without a just response. The State has no historic claim to Black Rise, seeing that the Federation once tried to colonize there. It is a valid military target, and it will be a necessary objective to move Federal military assets into systems there, in order to facilitate the removal of Tibush Heth from power. Its considerable lack of native population and infrastructure means collateral damage, compared to Placid, will be vastly minimal and pale in comparison. You reap what you sow. And the State shall do exactly that. We shall not let an occupation of our sovereign, historic territory go unanswered. But it shall be a difficult fight, for the STPRO are sure to not let our advance go unanswered either.
Jianni Sotaku Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.11 13:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Nikita Stark Heya folks. I'd like my fellow members of the Federal Defence Union to take some time to consider their objectives in this war. To this end I would like to share my perspective and invite others to do the same. The Caldari are a people capable of outstanding, beautiful and amazing achievements. Their ability to govern, protect and provide for their people is unsurpassed. The Federation and the Caldari State have very different ways. Where the State provides for the needs of the people and leads the way in all things, the Federation protects the people from outside influence and allows them to evolve to fortune or tragedy along their own path. The tide has turned for the Federal Defence Union. We suddenly have astonishing power and momentum. We have leapt forward like a raging animal. Set out to destroy those who have made us feel powerless. I will not be participating in the occupation of Caldari Sovereign territory. Instead my efforts will go towards securing Gallente Sovereign territory. I would not see the Caldari way become the only way, but I see no reason to attempt control over their systems and worlds. Thankyou for your time. Please consider your purpose before you proceed. Agreed. Each should be left to their own, to prosper in their own ways. Soon, hopefully the Federal systems will be freed from their occupation. Then, perhaps the road of peace can be taken. Once all is secured. -------
Per Bastet Amarr B.O.O.M	Posted - 2009.12.11 13:51:00 - [6] Pilot Seriphyn, I give you an exact quote out of the history texts of the early days of the Caldari States formation. Quote: From then on a lengthy, bloody war between the two races was all but inevitable û the Federation retaliated at once by sending an invasion force down to Caldari Prime and began a systematic orbital bombardment of the planet. Soon, the Caldari population had been driven to the mountains and the forests; their resistance getting weaker by the day. Source: History Text I bolded the important part. Not only did your government take their home world but you bombed it from orbit in addition to invading it. I think they have FULL right to reclaim their home world. By this Point in the text the Federation had a continued Blockade over the planet for a very lengthy period of time. Again a Naked act of aggression against a race that wanted to leave the Federation. What will happen when the Matari people wish to leave the "friendship" of the Federation? Will your people Blockade and bomb their home world too? Will you offer it a final Sunrise? -- Bastet's Organization Of Mining
Seriphyn Inhonores Gallente Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.11 14:00:00 - [7] Pilot Bastet, you are a True Amarr in a corporation under the 24th Imperial Crusade. Your opinions and matters regarding Federal and Caldari issues are, therefore, irrelevant and with no weight.
Jianni Sotaku Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.11 14:27:00 - [8] Mind you pilot, history states that it was the Caldari destruction of a Gallentean city that spurred the bombardment. Before that, according to some texts... The Gallentean government were seeking a way to end the blockade without violence. -------
Julianus Soter Gallente Moira.	Posted - 2009.12.11 14:34:00 - [9] I also love the Caldari people. I spent a few of my formative years on Achur. I appreciate their culture and their unique perspective on life. And it is indeed possible for the peoples of the Federation and the Deteis, Civere and and Achur to coexist peacefully. However, the current state of affairs is that the Federation is under an existential threat by Tibus Heth, an MTAC operator-turned Executor, and now he threatens interstellar war for a patch of soil and finances the Amarr Empire so that they may continue their Crusade against the Minmatar. This criminal must be brought to justice. And I will wage this war until he is.
tenfive	Posted - 2009.12.11 14:53:00 - [10] You guys are are weird - the point of war is **** pillage and plunder. Lets be truthful those caldari babes are hot. When we win I plan on getting myself a harem You pussies who want to bring peace and love don't worry - I'll have yours
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Julianus Soter However, the current state of affairs is that the Federation is under an existential threat by Tibus Heth, an MTAC operator-turned Executor, and now he threatens interstellar war for a patch of soil and finances the Amarr Empire so that they may continue their Crusade against the Minmatar. 1) The Empire invested in the State via the CAESA, not the other way around. The fact that a core component of the STPRO decided to move to the Amarr-Minmatar front gave you the opening necessary to rebuild your morale. 2) Tibus Heth may have been a MTAC operator and through a populist rebellion/revolution gained corporate power. He succeeded where Gallente-sponsored rebellions/revolutions failed. He is a product of very Gallente form of leadership selection. Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores Pilot Naquist, you will find it is the Caldari who are the minority on Caldari Prime. It has been a Federal world for over a century. But that is a different argument for a different time. It is a tired argument and one that will not be resolved. Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores However, retaliation is necessary. The State has shown us what it is capable of if they are allowed to take our sovereign territory away from us. They remove the voice of the people to replace it with an unwelcome corporate mechanism. They take away individual riches to contribute to the "greater whole", even though the collective in this face is a foreign government. Your Senate removed the voice of the people of those systems. The rest of your people elected a corporate executive to office who has put in place his personal security forces throughout the Federation. It appears you have traded several Caldari corporations for one Gallente corporation. The utilization of resources by the megacorporations is a crime? Will you be attacking the Ishukone, NoH, and Wirykomi stations in Placid? How about Sinq Laison? As of yet the Federal government has not stated whether the State corporations can continue to operate there with greater oversight. You can't, as in are physically unable, to remove the Caldari corporate presence from Placid. You can remove the STPRO occupancy. Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores The State has no historic claim to Black Rise, seeing that the Federation once tried to colonize there. This quickly goes back to the discussion of Caldari Prime. Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores It is a valid military target, and it will be a necessary objective to move Federal military assets into systems there, ... Its considerable lack of native population and infrastructure means collateral damage, compared to Placid, will be vastly minimal and pale in comparison. Placid, Essence, and Verge Vendor are valid military targets as defined under the Militia Act. Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores in order to facilitate the removal of Tibush Heth from power. I suspect retaking Placid, Essence, and Verge Vendor will do this on their own. The corporations are going to come knocking on the CPD's door for their money very soon. Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores You reap what you sow. And the State shall do exactly that. We shall not let an occupation of our sovereign, historic territory go unanswered. But it shall be a difficult fight, for the STPRO are sure to not let our advance go unanswered either. The STPRO is not the same organization it was a year ago. CEO, Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores The State has no historic claim to Black Rise, seeing that the Federation once tried to colonize there. The operative word there being "tried". The State succeeded where the Federation failed, and once again you personally get all childish and petulant. What's sad is that your attitude is damn near the stereotype that gets played up in State propaganda. You embody the Federation that wants what it doesn't have, and is willing to seize upon the tiniest fragmentary claim in your favour while ignoring overwhelmingly legitimate claims against. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Seriphyn Inhonores Gallente Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Stitcher The operative word there being "tried". The State succeeded where the Federation failed, and once again you personally get all childish and petulant. What's sad is that your attitude is damn near the stereotype that gets played up in State propaganda. You embody the Federation that wants what it doesn't have, and is willing to seize upon the tiniest fragmentary claim in your favour while ignoring overwhelmingly legitimate claims against. Then I suggest you pick up a weapon, and head out to the front.
Hester Shaw	Posted - 2009.12.11 17:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores Originally by: Stitcher The operative word there being "tried". The State succeeded where the Federation failed, and once again you personally get all childish and petulant. What's sad is that your attitude is damn near the stereotype that gets played up in State propaganda. You embody the Federation that wants what it doesn't have, and is willing to seize upon the tiniest fragmentary claim in your favour while ignoring overwhelmingly legitimate claims against. Then I suggest you pick up a weapon, and head out to the front. Trust you to think that guns solve everything.
Gottii Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 17:42:00 - [15] Edited by: Gottii on 11/12/2009 17:42:48 Originally by: Nikita Stark Heya folks. I'd like my fellow members of the Federal Defence Union to take some time to consider their objectives in this war. To this end I would like to share my perspective and invite others to do the same. The Caldari are a people capable of outstanding, beautiful and amazing achievements. Their ability to govern, protect and provide for their people is unsurpassed. The Federation and the Caldari State have very different ways. Where the State provides for the needs of the people and leads the way in all things, the Federation protects the people from outside influence and allows them to evolve to fortune or tragedy along their own path. The tide has turned for the Federal Defence Union. We suddenly have astonishing power and momentum. We have leapt forward like a raging animal. Set out to destroy those who have made us feel powerless. I will not be participating in the occupation of Caldari Sovereign territory. Instead my efforts will go towards securing Gallente Sovereign territory. I would not see the Caldari way become the only way, but I see no reason to attempt control over their systems and worlds. Thankyou for your time. Please consider your purpose before you proceed. If you truly hate war and suffering, the best thing you can do as a soldier in that war is try to end it as quickly as possible, with as few casualties as possible. Perpetual defensive action on the FDU's part would mean that the war drags on and on and on, with rising losses on both sides, with the Federation the likely loser.
Ze'ev Sinraali Ataraxia Pharmacies	Posted - 2009.12.11 18:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores Originally by: Stitcher The operative word there being "tried". The State succeeded where the Federation failed, and once again you personally get all childish and petulant. What's sad is that your attitude is damn near the stereotype that gets played up in State propaganda. You embody the Federation that wants what it doesn't have, and is willing to seize upon the tiniest fragmentary claim in your favour while ignoring overwhelmingly legitimate claims against. Then I suggest you pick up a weapon, and head out to the front. I might be hallucinating here, but I'm pretty sure Forgetech has been part of the Protectorate for a few months now.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.12.11 19:45:00 - [17] Edited by: Stitcher on 11/12/2009 19:46:01 Yes indeed, and the last time Inhonores and I met in battle I seem to recall that he fled the field and left two of his comrades to be destroyed. Admittedly, that was about three months ago, but I really don't think he has any right to make veiled accusations of cowardice at anyone, let alone me. I've certainly not been inactive since then. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Seriphyn Inhonores Gallente Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.11 22:03:00 - [18] Not accusing you of cowardice, Hakatain, just stating that if you are going to bark, then at least bite as well.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.12.11 22:31:00 - [19] stay on your side of the border, and I won't have to. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Julianus Soter Gallente Moira.	Posted - 2009.12.11 23:20:00 - [20] The Caldari never stayed on their side of the border in the first place?
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.12.12 00:26:00 - [21] Edited by: Stitcher on 12/12/2009 00:26:21 And that changes things how, exactly? Answering a wrong with a wrong isn't right. The fact hat the STPRO did it to you doesn't make it just and good for you to repeat that infraction. I personally think we should have never taken a single Federation system, and I stuck by that conviction by never contributing to the capture of a system that didn't originally belong to the State. I have no control over what the Protectorate does, however. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2009.12.12 00:47:00 - [22] I'm of the opinion that, with a little bit of luck, we won't need to take Black Rise to get what we want. If all or even a majority of Gallente systems are returned to their rightful owners, the sheer amount of money lost to suddenly and inconveniently voided development rights will cast the competency of Tibus Heth's administration into serious doubt. Once that madman is out of the way, the Federation will be able to negotiate on far more advantageous terms: if the corporations want to keep their development rights, they're going to need to negotiate. Look at the current situation, for instance - Wirkyomi's lost a system, so has Sukuuvestaa, CBD's lost two systems and, with tonight's liberation of Uphallant, Nugoeihuvi's lost all the systems it bid on. Given the state of finances that we can gather based on publically available information, losing Intaki would practically bankrupt Ishukone. Total reacquisition of Gallente space would cost Sukuuvestaa an unimaginably large amount of money, given that it bid for the most systems, closely followed by Kaalakiota and Wiyrkomi, who bid for a roughly equal number of systems. Regardless, all the corps stand to lose trillions - figures that could effortlessly bankrupt several smaller alliances put together, and put the fear of God into people like CVA or Goonswarm. This is not a prospect that will make the corporations happy. Individuals like Heth may be motivated by blind hatred but fundamentally the State is motivated by what's profitable. If peace and pursuit of their development rights under Gallente terms is clearly easier and less costly than the notorious uncertainty of relying on capsuleer militias to defend their investments, you'll find that support for war will quickly dry up.
Zagamesh Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2009.12.12 00:59:00 - [23] All other rationalizations aside, the fact remains that Black Rise is of significant strategic value in the context of the current war. It represents a major staging point for the deployment of military assets from the Caldari Navy as well as the corporate militaries of WPC, LDPS and Home Guard. To not seek to neutralize the region as a staging point for further Provist aggression upon the Federation would represent nothing more than absolute and total strategic incompetence on the part of the FDU. We're fighting a war, not engaged in some damn ethics class at the University of Caille.
Tibes Heathcliff	Posted - 2009.12.12 01:10:00 - [24] Edited by: Tibes Heathcliff on 12/12/2009 01:10:50 Quote: The rest of your people elected a corporate executive to office who has put in place his personal security forces throughout the Federation. It appears you have traded several Caldari corporations for one Gallente corporation How could I have missed this investment! I am contacting Roden Shipyards right away! Thanks DEX for the heads up! Maybe I can recoup the losses I've had investing in State megacorps,,, er... and the other stuff you wrote sounded good to. By the way , what is going on with all those sabatoge events? Should I be worried about your parent corp? I put some isk into the new projects when I went to that conference! That was quite the headache when I woke up!
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.12.12 01:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Zagamesh We're fighting a war, not engaged in some damn ethics class at the University of Caille. Fair point, though I've always been a little bit romantic for the old warrior-philosophers of the Raata era. Although now I come to think of it, mostly the philosophy was conducted after the war had been won. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Caellach Marellus Gallente Preta Light Industries Naraka.	Posted - 2009.12.12 09:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Stitcher Edited by: Stitcher on 12/12/2009 00:26:21 And that changes things how, exactly? Answering a wrong with a wrong isn't right. The fact hat the STPRO did it to you doesn't make it just and good for you to repeat that infraction. I believe the phrase "Treat others how you want to be treated" springs to mind here. If you go into a man's garden and let your dog take a crap on his lawn, don't be too suprised if he turns up on your front door with his mutt expecting you to return the favour. Granted, you personally disagreed with advancing into Gallente space and that's an admirable trait, regardless others still did. It's an unfortunate situation sadly. I congratulate the FDU on their recent turnabout, and despite how I may personally feel towards the situation in Government and certain key figures of the FDU, I wish you all the best of luck. -------------------------------------- The troubles that be
Vikarion Caldari Chorus of Nephilim	Posted - 2009.12.12 10:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Caellach Marellus I believe the phrase "Treat others how you want to be treated" springs to mind here. Oh? You seem to forget that it was the FDU with [FOOM] who conducted the first serious incursion into the space of another power. But somehow, this is forgotten in the typical Gallente crush to prove themselves merely on the receiving end of wrong doing. ---
Caellach Marellus Gallente Preta Light Industries Naraka.	Posted - 2009.12.12 10:23:00 - [28] Originally by: Vikarion Originally by: Caellach Marellus I believe the phrase "Treat others how you want to be treated" springs to mind here. Oh? You seem to forget that it was the FDU with [FOOM] who conducted the first serious incursion into the space of another power. But somehow, this is forgotten in the typical Gallente crush to prove themselves merely on the receiving end of wrong doing. Not really a case of seeming to forget, more I was busy doing something else in that time period... studying most likely, that or drinking myself stupid. I assume then by the way you're bringing up this history lesson they took every system in low security possible and then started selling off the systems to the highest bidder? Either way, the precendent has been set, whether it's by the Caldari or the Gallente. It won't end until one side shows the restraint to know when enough is enough and sticks contentedly to what is theirs. Personally I'm an outsider on the matter and fight for neither, while I believe the entire war is little more than a ****fight for the last.. eh I lost track of time. However, if it leads to a point where Heth's knocked off his perch and brought to account, I'll be all for it. -------------------------------------- The troubles that be
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2009.12.12 10:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Vikarion Oh? You seem to forget that it was the FDU with [FOOM] who conducted the first serious incursion into the space of another power. But somehow, this is forgotten in the typical Gallente crush to prove themselves merely on the receiving end of wrong doing. As usual, you are either ignorant or intentionally duplicitous. The first system occupied by a foreign force after the declaration of the Militia Act was Odamia, by the Caldari. I know this for a fact because Mixed Metaphor had a direct hand in reclaiming it. This was closely followed by Covryn (which I would note that the Caldari could not defend on their own, and were forced to beg the pirates resident in the system at the time to police for them). The [FOOM] offensive occurred much later after months of mutual aggression - but as you've a notorious penchant for splitting hairs and quibbling, let's be frank - the first serious incursion into the space of another power in this theatre occurred when the Provist regime violated sovereign Federation territory in contravention of CONCORD statutes - not to mention a treaty which the State themselves signed 100 years ago, making them oathbreakers as well as war criminals, if we're throwing aspersions on each others' honour - invaded our home system, forcibly seizing a planet that under our control, under threat of Leviathan-assisted genocide. Unsatisfied with the peace deal offered by the Federation that returned to them the home planet with which they were so obsessed, the greedy Provist junta then set about attempting to seize our outer systems. Unfortunately, for a time, they succeeded, although with renewed effort and dedication on the part of the FDU, this error is about to be put right. The Federation may not be able to claim the moral high ground, Vikarion, but do not dare think it belongs to the State, either. -----
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2009.12.12 15:58:00 - [30] Originally by: Andreus LeHane the first serious incursion into the space of another power in this theatre occurred when the Provist regime violated sovereign Federation territory in contravention of CONCORD statutes - not to mention a treaty which the State themselves signed 100 years ago, making them oathbreakers as well as war criminals, if we're throwing aspersions on each others' honour - invaded our home system, forcibly seizing a planet that under our control, under threat of Leviathan-assisted genocide. Thread is effectively over unless you want to argue (again) over who should have control over Caldari Prime. You are also painting the treaty as something that both sides were not already breaking. Originally by: Andreus LeHane Unsatisfied with the peace deal offered by the Federation that returned to them the home planet with which they were so obsessed, the greedy Provist junta then set about attempting to seize our outer systems. Unfortunately, for a time, they succeeded, although with renewed effort and dedication on the part of the FDU, this error is about to be put right. Considering it was a CONCORD sanctioned war, the Federation signed up to the war just as much at the State. CEO, Lai Dai Infinity Systems

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