EVE Search - Calculating transversal effects in eft?

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Calculating transversal effects in eft?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Cearain	Posted - 2009.12.13 17:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Cearain on 13/12/2009 17:50:07 I think I understand transverals but how eft helps in this I do not know. I open a dps graph and it always sets transversal at 0ms. (lower left hand corner of the dps graph) I can adjust the percent that each ship contributes to the transversal but I don't understand what this is doing. I was under the impression that it didn't matter if the attacker or the target was the one contributing to the transversal. The only thing that mattered is whether the transversal speed was too high for the attackers guns. (regardless of whether the target or the attacker was contributing more to the transversal) I did a few searches and someone said I could set the speed and orbit of ships but I don't see where or how to do this. Any help would be appreciated.
Chssmius Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.13 23:19:00 - [2] Edited by: Chssmius on 13/12/2009 23:20:03 Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 13/12/2009 17:50:07 I think I understand transverals but how eft helps in this I do not know. I open a dps graph and it always sets transversal at 0ms. (lower left hand corner of the dps graph) I can adjust the percent that each ship contributes to the transversal but I don't understand what this is doing. I was under the impression that it didn't matter if the attacker or the target was the one contributing to the transversal. The only thing that mattered is whether the transversal speed was too high for the attackers guns. (regardless of whether the target or the attacker was contributing more to the transversal) I did a few searches and someone said I could set the speed and orbit of ships but I don't see where or how to do this. Any help would be appreciated. The transversal at the bottom is displayed only when you select the damage graph(that line that shows up when you have at least one attacker and one target). Because of the way the Eve physics engine works, and the way the turret damage formula behaves, the "traversal" used is the sum of the vectors of the angular velocities of the attacker and the target divided by the range. The DPS graph in EFT assumes that, if a given ship is moving, the ship is orbiting the other ship. In reality, the attainable speed and orbit while orbiting even a stationary target is usually less than full speed and more than the specified orbit, but it is still useful for finding a worst case scenario. As for the orbit of a ship, EFT gives you a DPS vs length scale and allows you to control the velocity of both ships. I don't think I need to say much more, now use those neurons! Lastly, you should review the damage formula as your phrasing implies an incorrect understanding of the underlying mechanics of turret DPS. EDIT: #$(*&^ links.... Take The EvE Personality Test today!
Cearain	Posted - 2009.12.14 05:15:00 - [3] Thanks for your response but still have questions on using eft: what did I say that was incorrect? How does eft allow you to adjust the speed of each ship? What orbit does eft assume you are using? Does it indeed matter who is contributing more to the transversal? I can do the math of the transversal but does eft do this for you automatically? I would like to do several calculations fast, regarding tracking disruptors. When to use opimal scrip when to use tracking script etc. Pencil and paper are fine but I think eft does it automatically - I just don't know how. I'm just not sure of the features of the program. With neurons you dont need eft at all. But eft makes calculating easier. I think.
Chssmius Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.15 12:36:00 - [4] Originally by: Cearain what did I say that was incorrect? Originally by: Cearain The only thing that mattered is whether the transversal speed was too high for the attackers guns. If you understood the math in tracking. You would know that the radial velocity(transversal/range) is ALWAYS a factor in tracking(no matter how small) irregardless of the effectiveness of gun tracking. However, due to the ^2 the effect is exaggerated the larger the radial velocity. Originally by: Cearain How does eft allow you to adjust the speed of each ship? What orbit does eft assume you are using? Reread my last post and try to use the EFT graph. THINK about what you are doing and seeing and what questions you are asking. If you understand your questions, then you will find the answers and save me two paragraphs of explanation. Originally by: Cearain Does it indeed matter who is contributing more to the transversal? In EvE, it does not matter. Both ships are consider have the same radial velocity relative to each other. In RL it DOES matter, however, so be careful. Originally by: Cearain I can do the math of the transversal but does eft do this for you automatically? I would like to do several calculations fast, regarding tracking disruptors. When to use opimal scrip when to use tracking script etc. If you are trying to gauge the effects of another ship on the firing ship then you need to drag the effecting module from one ship to the projected effects(need to expand it first) on another ship. Take The EvE Personality Test today!
Cearain	Posted - 2009.12.15 17:10:00 - [5] Edited by: Cearain on 15/12/2009 17:10:59 Originally by: Chssmius Originally by: Cearain what did I say that was incorrect? Originally by: Cearain The only thing that mattered is whether the transversal speed was too high for the attackers guns. 1) If you understood the math in tracking. You would know that the radial velocity(transversal/range) is ALWAYS a factor in tracking(no matter how small) irregardless of the effectiveness of gun tracking. However, due to the ^2 the effect is exaggerated the larger the radial velocity. Originally by: Cearain How does eft allow you to adjust the speed of each ship? What orbit does eft assume you are using? 2)Reread my last post and try to use the EFT graph. THINK about what you are doing and seeing and what questions you are asking. If you understand your questions, then you will find the answers and save me two paragraphs of explanation. Originally by: Cearain Does it indeed matter who is contributing more to the transversal? In EvE, it does not matter. Both ships are consider have the same radial velocity relative to each other. In RL it DOES matter, however, so be careful. Originally by: Cearain I can do the math of the transversal but does eft do this for you automatically? I would like to do several calculations fast, regarding tracking disruptors. When to use opimal scrip when to use tracking script etc. 3) If you are trying to gauge the effects of another ship on the firing ship then you need to drag the effecting module from one ship to the projected effects(need to expand it first) on another ship. Chessmius Thanks for posting. I really do want to be clear what eft can and can't do. I added numbers to your post to make things more clear. 1) Yes I see that tracking is always a factor even though it may be minimal. When I said the only thing that mattered was whether the transversal is too high for the attackers guns I was just trying to clarify that it didn't matter who was contributing more to the transversal. 2) I reread your post. a) The only way I can control the speed of a ship is by turning a propulsion mod off or on or applying a web or not applying a web. I can't change the speed to say 552 ms. At least I don't know how to do this. This would be helpful for longer range fits where you try to orbit outside of scram range with rail guns etc. If you do please let me know. b) I use the dps graphs in eft all the time. However, the only thing I think they can tell me is the effect of optimal falloff - not transversal. At least I have not seen how they can help me calculate the transversal aspect of turrets. If you look at the lower right hand corner of the dps graph you will see 2 sliders under a heading that says "transversal contribution". One slider allows you to adjust the "attacker percent velocity" the other allows you to adjust the "target percent velocity." I don't understand how to use these. On the leftlower corner it says the transversal velocity is 0. How can I have a percent (or a negative percent) of zero tansversal velocity? Why does it matter whether the attacker or the target is contributing to that velocity? (I mean in eve why does it matter - I know it does in real life) I really don't mean to be dense but I am not tracking this (sorry for the bad pun.) If someone can help me understand how these sliders are used I would appreciate it. 3) Yes I knew how to do this. And this would tell me clearly what a tracking disruptor with an optimal script in would do. But I can't really see what the tracking effects would be. I'm sure I am just missing something easy here.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.15 17:26:00 - [6] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 15/12/2009 17:30:11 Originally by: Cearain 2) I reread your post. a) The only way I can control the speed of a ship is by turning a propulsion mod off or on or applying a web or not applying a web. I can't change the speed to say 552 ms. At least I don't know how to do this. This would be helpful for longer range fits where you try to orbit outside of scram range with rail guns etc. If you do please let me know. When you create a damage graph, there are sliders on the lower right that let you set the % speed contribution of both the firing ship and the target ship. The graph will also display the transversal in m/s in the lower left hand corner of the graph. Set the sliders until the m/s is the speed that you want to know your damage. If you want to know the damage at a particular orbit, look at that particular range on the graph. You are being presented with your damage at any given orbit. Quote: b) I don't understand how to use these. On the leftlower corner it says the transversal velocity is 0. How can I have a percent (or a negative percent) of zero tansversal velocity? Why does it matter whether the attacker or the target is contributing to that velocity? It says the transversal is zero because it is zero until you move the sliders. It is displaying the current transversal used to calculate the damage graph. Technically, it does not matter which ship is contributing velocity. But the ship firing and the ship being fired at have different base velocities, and can affect the transversal differently. For instance, say you have a BS with a max speed of 150m/s firing at an inty with a max speed of 4000m/s. If you set the firing ship's speed to 100% but the target to 0%, your transversal will be calculated with 150m/s. If you do it the other way around, the transversal will be calculated with 4000m/s. If you set the firing ship's speed to -100%, and the target's to 100%, it'll be calculated with 4150m/s transversal. Got it? ED: One more example before the question comes up.
cearaen	Posted - 2009.12.15 20:24:00 - [7] btw this is an alt to cearain - had trouble signing in with my main. Thank you all for your help. I was not clicking on the actual graph line so it wasn't giving me a tansversal speed it still said zero. If you could help a dumby out a bit more: If one side is contributing 100% of its velocity to the transversal (as opposed to zero percent of its velocity) why does the transversal go down? And why when a ship is contributing -100% (I'm assuming that means it is using 100% of its velocity to reduce transversal) does the transversal go up?
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.15 20:43:00 - [8] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 15/12/2009 20:43:47 Originally by: cearaen If one side is contributing 100% of its velocity to the transversal (as opposed to zero percent of its velocity) why does the transversal go down? And why when a ship is contributing -100% (I'm assuming that means it is using 100% of its velocity to reduce transversal) does the transversal go up? So remember the explanation of ships as vectors? Think of it like this: Transversal is at its maximum when two ships are perpendicular to each other, flying away from each other at max velocity. If I can draw it out... +100% Target, -100% Attacker: ----------> \|\| \|\| \|\| \|\| \/ +100% Target, +100% Attacker: ---------> /\ \|\| \|\| \|\| As you can see, if the attacker is approaching the target at full velocity, while the target is 100% at a 90 degree angle, the transversal decreases. If the attacker flies away from the same target (-100%) transversal increased. (Please pardon the phallic appearance of the arrows...) That is the very best I can do to explain this. If it still doesn't make sense, I give up.
cearaen	Posted - 2009.12.15 22:57:00 - [9] Edited by: cearaen on 15/12/2009 22:59:33 Edited by: cearaen on 15/12/2009 22:58:21 Thanks for all the explanations and even drawing it out. You now know I am not as intelligent as my toons appear. Let me try to soak this in. What is interesteding to me is that it would seem the attacker would have to rotate his guns faster in the second example than in the first example. Also in eft I put two frigs in and set the target contribution to 50% and left it there. The target is going about 40% the speed of the attacker. (attacker has an ab the target doesn't) Then I only move the contribution from the attacking ship. I seem to get odd changes to the transversal as I go from 0% to 60% with the attacker. It seems to go down and then start increasing again as I move away from 0%. Does that make sense to you?
Chssmius Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.16 02:40:00 - [10] Originally by: cearaen Edited by: cearaen on 15/12/2009 22:59:33 Edited by: cearaen on 15/12/2009 22:58:21 Thanks for all the explanations and even drawing it out. You now know I am not as intelligent as my toons appear. Let me try to soak this in. What is interesteding to me is that it would seem the attacker would have to rotate his guns faster in the second example than in the first example. Also in eft I put two frigs in and set the target contribution to 50% and left it there. The target is going about 40% the speed of the attacker. (attacker has an ab the target doesn't) Then I only move the contribution from the attacking ship. I seem to get odd changes to the transversal as I go from 0% to 60% with the attacker. It seems to go down and then start increasing again as I move away from 0%. Does that make sense to you? Think of two straight parallel lines each representing the path of a ship. Any two ships traveling at the same speed and in the same direction along these lines will have 0 transversal. Only if one is going faster than the other or if they move in opposite directions(opposite velocity signs on the sliders) will they have any transversal. Remember we are dealing with vectors where the direction AND the magnitude are important. Exercise: Put the same ship in a DPS graph as both the attacker and the target. Set one at 50% and move the other from 0% to 50% and then to 100%. 100% and 0% will have identical graphs and the steps between them will be mirrored on either side of 50%. You could do the same thing with -100% 0% and 100% or any similar trio of percentages(-70%, -30%, 10% for example). Any two ships traveling at the same speed in the same direction will have zero transversal. That the speed happens to be 60% of, suppose, the attackers speed doesn't matter. The 10% granularity of the velocity, and the differing top speeds of ships are the only obfuscating factors here. Take The EvE Personality Test today!



Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.