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Armor plates Vs Resist modules

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Jack Drake	Posted - 2009.12.14 22:52:00 - [1] Edited by: Jack Drake on 14/12/2009 22:53:19 I'm trying to figure out armor tanking. From my understanding, armor plating increases your armor's HP while lowering ship speed? While resist mods like "adaptive nano plating" lowers the amount of damage taken from each hit? This leads me to believe I can either go for tons of armor HP... OR... I can go for high resists. The benefit of higher resists means, the amount healed by my armor repairer will be more significant AND I don't believe there is a speed penalty? I just see the vast majority of battleclinic loadouts using armor plates over resists and I can't understand why.
Magnus Orin Minmatar United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.12.14 23:05:00 - [2] In pvp you often need a large buffer tank, therefore you will find the plates and shield extenders used often. Resists are great, but if you don't have the HP to tank an alpha or two before your repper can get going, you're gonna pop.
Louis deGuerre Gallente The Rise of The Dragon Knights Void Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.14 23:18:00 - [3] Resists are nice, and always used in PVE permatanks (Take so little damage that you can keep up repairing it forever). In PVP fleetfight, if you are primaried (called as target) you will take so much damage no resist tank can cope. So on those occasions it's better to fit a bugger tank, i.e. plates, so you will live a little bit longer. A little bit of both can be good. For example cruisers with a med repper and a 1600mm plate can take a lot more damage and can also repair it. Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie ROTDK is recruiting
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Undivided	Posted - 2009.12.14 23:39:00 - [4] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 14/12/2009 23:39:24 To clarify for the OP...there are three types of tanking modules, all of which synergize with each other Repairers: Armor reppers, shield boosters, and shield rechargers. Repair armor hitpoints, making you last longer (yay!) Resist mods: Increase your resistances. Each individual hitpoint gives more benefit, so you have effectively higher hitpoints (This is where you hear the term "Effective hitpoints" thrown around). Synergizes with armor/shield repairers because repairers fix a certain number of hitpoints per second. If each hitpoint means more, you're effectively repping more. Also synergizes with buffer modules...they add a certain number of hitpoints, but each hitpoint they add means more with a resist mod. Buffer mods: Armor plating, shield extenders. Synergizes with repairers because they allow your ship to last longer until it pops, giving you more time to run the repper (= more total hitpoints repaired). A good tank uses a mix of all or some of the above to maximize protection.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.14 23:52:00 - [5] Once you hit 4 resist modules, you are often better off adding more buffer (armor plates) than adding more resists, as resist modules are stacking penalized. Armor plates also tend to add a LOT of armor, which can be more than the effective HP gained by adding resists. It depends on the ship, skills, and fitting.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Undivided	Posted - 2009.12.14 23:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Once you hit 4 resist modules, you are often better off adding more buffer (armor plates) than adding more resists, as resist modules are stacking penalized. Armor plates also tend to add a LOT of armor, which can be more than the effective HP gained by adding resists. It depends on the ship, skills, and fitting. 3 resist mods. In fact, probably even 2. the third one is only 54% effective. The fourth is almost worthless at about 20% effective.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.15 00:38:00 - [7] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 15/12/2009 00:39:03 Originally by: Kahega Amielden 3 resist mods. In fact, probably even 2. the third one is only 54% effective. The fourth is almost worthless at about 20% effective. True, but I meant overall. I've never had a fitting with more than 4 resist modules of any type. For example, I use 2x EM and 2x Thermal hardeners on my Raven.
Baka Lakadaka Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.12.15 02:12:00 - [8] There are some excellent explanations in this guide The last section titled Why should I use a resistance module when I can just slap on another extender/armor plate? has a good example of how adding more hitpoints or adding more resists may affect your overall EHP. The whole guide is quite good - I stumbled across this as a new player several years ago and it's still relevant now. ______________________ Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.12.15 03:02:00 - [9] 1600mm_Reinforced_Rolled_Tungsten_Plates_I add 4200HP to your ship. If your ship's HP is lower than 8400 HP, fitting those plates will add more effective HP than an extra 50% resistance to all damage types. Thus one armour plate is more powerful than four resistance modules. The winner of a fight between two space ships is determined by the person whose ship blows up first. There are two ways you can get the other guy's ship to blow up before yours - one is you can deal 100% damage to him faster than he can deal 100% damage to you (ie: focus on gank), the other is to reduce his relative damage to you more than he's reduced your relative damage to him (ie: add more buffer). There is no way an active tank is going to beat a gank-fit ship of the same class, so you end up relying on buffer. Since you can boost your EHP by 50% easier than you can boost your DPS by 50%, it makes sense to boost your EHP. It's a no-brainer decision: gyrostabilizers to give you 20% more DPS for the first module, with a stacking penalty so each module gives you a smaller increase in DPS; or fit armour plate which increases your EHP by exactly the same amount for as many modules as you can fit. The downside is the reduction in speed and agility, and the inability to sustain your tank. Resistance modules mean you're more likely to be able to actively tank the incoming damage. A huge buffer tank on the other hand means your logistics crew have more time to react to incoming damage and get the reppers active on your ship. Contrast this to a Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction, which adds 2250 HP to your shields at the penalty of making you a larger target (and therefore taking more damage from both turret and launcher weapons). One could suggest that armour plates are overpowered. [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Undivided	Posted - 2009.12.15 03:17:00 - [10] Except only frigates, dessies, and some cruisers have <8200 HP. Also, 1600mm plates have an absolutely massive PG cost...and no one is going to fit four specific-resist mods to boost all their resists when you have EANMs

Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.12.15 03:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Except only frigates, dessies, and some cruisers have <8400 HP. The ratio of EHP from armour plate versus EHP from shield extenders versus EHP from resistance modules still holds. The biggest armour plate you can slap on your ship will give you more EHP than resistance modules or shield extenders. Quote: Also, 1600mm plates have an absolutely massive PG cost...and no one is going to fit four specific-resist mods to boost all their resists when you have EANMs While the 4200 HP from armour plate is greater than 20% of your EHP, you get more EHP by adding the armour plate over an EANM. If you don't have the PG to fit another, you resort to EANM. It's a balance between module slots versus fitting stats. My CNR topped out at about 17k shields, without extenders. A shield extender on that would have been a waste of time, compared to an invulnerability module (13% extra EHP vs 37% extra EHP). An Abaddon starts off with about 8.3k HP, adjusted by Mechanic skill to around 10k, so you get 42% extra EHP from armour plate versus 20% for the first EANM. The armour plate uses 500MW out of the available 21000MW (I'm looking at the wiki for this information - does an armour plate really only use 1/40th of the PG of that ship?) Tell me where I'm going wrong here... [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2009.12.15 06:54:00 - [12] Higher resistance means your reppers give you more EHP per cycle.
Thaddeus Brutor Minmatar Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E	Posted - 2009.12.17 01:51:00 - [13] The larger the fight, the more damage you will have to withstand if you are primaried. At some point, the fight gets large enough that without a fleet of logistics ships repairing you, you're going to pop. Even if that fleet of logistics is there, it will take them time to target you and start repairing. So in PVP, often your Effective Hit Points (the amount of damage you can take with resists factored) becomes more important than your Defense (the amount of damage you can repair with resists factored--or have remotely repaired).
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Undivided	Posted - 2009.12.17 05:26:00 - [14] Quote: The ratio of EHP from armour plate versus EHP from shield extenders versus EHP from resistance modules still holds. The biggest armour plate you can slap on your ship will give you more EHP than resistance modules or shield extenders. Depends entirely on the ship, how many resist mods/armor plates you already have, etc... Quote:Also, 1600mm plates have an absolutely massive PG cost...and no one is going to fit four specific-resist mods to boost all their resists when you have EANMs Quote: While the 4200 HP from armour plate is greater than 20% of your EHP, you get more EHP by adding the armour plate over an EANM. If you don't have the PG to fit another, you resort to EANM. It's a balance between module slots versus fitting stats. Okay? Quote: My CNR topped out at about 17k shields, without extenders. A shield extender on that would have been a waste of time, compared to an invulnerability module (13% extra EHP vs 37% extra EHP). Correct. Shields have a powerful, active version of the EANM and armor has a bigger +HP module.
Baneken Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.17 09:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor The larger the fight, the more damage you will have to withstand if you are primaried. At some point, the fight gets large enough that without a fleet of logistics ships repairing you, you're going to pop. Even if that fleet of logistics is there, it will take them time to target you and start repairing. No your repper still fix the same amount but incoming damage is considerably less so need to repair less damage. Time you have before you can be repped is targeting + armor repper's cycle so about 6-7s in total unless you have been targeted before hand (a logistic ship can lock as much as 10 targets at a time). Originally by: Thaddeus Brutor So in PVP, often your Effective Hit Points (the amount of damage you can take with resists factored) becomes more important than your Defense (the amount of damage you can repair with resists factored--or have remotely repaired). In small gangs and with solo work local repping is sometimes required but most go with a buffer tank since you can usually limp back to some station or another if you survive the battle.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.12.17 14:38:00 - [16] Edited by: Davina Braben on 17/12/2009 14:39:24 Originally by: Jack Drake Edited by: Jack Drake on 14/12/2009 22:53:19 I'm trying to figure out armor tanking. From my understanding, armor plating increases your armor's HP while lowering ship speed? While resist mods like "adaptive nano plating" lowers the amount of damage taken from each hit? This leads me to believe I can either go for tons of armor HP... OR... I can go for high resists. The benefit of higher resists means, the amount healed by my armor repairer will be more significant AND I don't believe there is a speed penalty? I just see the vast majority of battleclinic loadouts using armor plates over resists and I can't understand why. It's important to understand if the fit you're looking at is PVP or PVE. The two are often pretty different. PVE fits tend to be cap stable, have mids full of cap rechargers, have afterburners, use active hardeners if they have the cap for it, not fit damage controls as they are only tanking on one layer, only have to cope with relatively consistent amounts of incoming damage of predetermined types, generally not have to cope with energy neuts, expect the fight to last long periods of time. PVP fits tend not to be cap stable, use mids for tackle, fit MWDs (very cap hungry, have a total cap penalty), fit damage controls (mostly so they can use the structure HP as tank too), have to cope with different types and amounts of damage, have to worry about energy neuts, will be fighting for a much shorter period of time. Generally the plate vs. repper equation is to look at how long a fight will have to go on for before a repper has put more HP back than a plate gives and to look at whether there's any hope of an active tank keeping up with incoming damage. If you're looking at 200mm + Small armor rep fit on a rifter that's an attempt to combine the advantages of both approaches.
Losmandy Amarr Off World Enterprises	Posted - 2009.12.18 19:58:00 - [17] Fitting armour plates will make your tank less susceptible to being neuted or nossed


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