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TigerXtrm
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Posted - 2009.12.18 13:55:00 -
[1]
I've been getting into T1 manufacturing and the math that comes with it, but when I'm looking at the market I hardly see any holes I could squeeze myself in. Even with all my perfect manufacturing skills and a good ME on blueprints, the price I end up manufacturing my stuff for is very close to the lowest sell orders in my region. Some people apparently put their stuff on the market to make 10.000 isk profit or something, how are newcomers to the market, like me, supposed to fight this?
Sure we can put it up there and get 9000 isk profit, but when you start playing that game you might just as well put it up for your base price and even then people will be undercutting you.
Does someone have any advice on what my best approach on this should be?
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Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.18 14:41:00 -
[2]
Welcome to EvEonline, where some people think: becouse i mined, its free minerals. And thats leads to situation you have observed.
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Eat Bunnies
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Posted - 2009.12.18 14:45:00 -
[3]
Most of the tech 1 modules are dropped from mission rats. Try looking at the items that ain't.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2009.12.18 16:42:00 -
[4]
*sigh*
Having made a steady profit from the T1 market for oh, I don't know, years now, you're either looking in the wrong place or doing the wrong thing. Two things you need to do to make T1 manufacturing profitable:
1) Get Production Efficiency to 5
2) Get your BPOs researched (to perfectME or 20ME, whichever comes first would be my advice - higher is generally only worthwhile for BPC manufacturers)
The rest is knowing how to buy minerals and how to sell your goods. Research and location, location, location.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.18 17:26:00 -
[5]
This is what you want: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=993762
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Pointyhat
Black Magic Mushroom Society
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Posted - 2009.12.18 17:39:00 -
[6]
Just give it up. Manufacturing won't make you any ISK if you have little to zero knowledge on how the markets behave. You must have the ability to tell which type of mushroom is edible and which type of mushroom is poisonous. However, poisonous mushrooms may have their season depending on extraction, so to speak.
1) Know the market. Adapt to it.
2) Cut expenses (both ISK and time) to the marrow and streamline and perfect any logistics involved.
--Questions are a burden to others. Answers are a prison to oneself-- |
Knas
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Posted - 2009.12.18 21:13:00 -
[7]
A good place to get started is the ammo market.
It takes me a good 2 weeks to get familiar with a region's market, so give yourself time to get an idea of what moves and what doesn't. It could well be some of the good items to make just have a glut on the market that will clear up later. Learn to use the graph in the market window. I like looking at 3 months worth of data.
Look for good places to get minerals to improve your margin. I usually use buy orders to get the minerals I need, and when I'm not lazy and plan ahead I put up orders away from the hubs at lower prices, and contract others to move the minerals to where I need them.
Run some missions in the area you're working (assuming you're near a hub). It'll give you an idea of what drops from the rats and what doesn't. This will show you what to avoid making (though this should be obvious from how it's doing in the market). It'll also lower your taxes for things done in stations owned by that corp.
Just make sure you're not selling items for less than you'd get by selling the minerals directly.
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mergblue
Open Season
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Posted - 2009.12.18 21:47:00 -
[8]
A lot of T1 manufacturers are doing it for "fun" rather than for profit. This can kill a market, obviously. But once the kids start selling below the insurance and reprocessing thresholds, there is money to be made by players who use spreadsheets rather than pull numbers out of their arses. These two mechanics ensure that the market always corrects itself back to where production is profitable again. You just have to know how to exploit the gap to your own advantage.
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mergblue
Open Season
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Posted - 2009.12.18 21:55:00 -
[9]
Edited by: mergblue on 18/12/2009 21:55:14
oops
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.12.19 00:59:00 -
[10]
Free mineral issue aside - only noobs worry about margin.
As long as your margin is positive you shuld be looking at isk per hour not margin.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Vigilant
Gallente
Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2009.12.19 01:15:00 -
[11]
First goto to some backwater region... (like Bleak Lands)
Second...Start with easy stuff (frigs, ammo, haulers, maybe a occasional cruiser).
Third, see what you can buy cheap using buy orders in high sec. mission hubs and reprocess for your some of your mineral needs.
Fourth, mine a lot, no those minerals are not FREE, but better than paying someone else IMHO.
Fifth, adapt to the market and set points of no return. This would be the lowest price you accept for a item.
Lastly, keep at it...You can make tons of isk on T1.
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TigerXtrm
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Posted - 2009.12.19 11:38:00 -
[12]
Thanks for all the advice. I'll put it to good use!
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Fulbert
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.19 22:40:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Fulbert on 19/12/2009 22:43:41
You can make money with unresearched T1 BPOs only if you respect some drastic rules :
1) don't buy BPOs, don't launch any production job if you're not sure to make profits on this batch
2) Use the worst case scenario for mineral prices when calculating production costs, i.e sell order prices at the nearest market hub (if you're based in Caldari space, use Jita as a reference)
3) Sell local as often as possible. Hauling is a waste of time.
4) Focus on small ships and ammoes. Industrials are a good source of money but they cannot be hauled (20000m3) unless you have a freighter. Anything above destroyers isn't profitable without optimally researched BPOs.
5) Refresh your production costs as often as possible. Brutal variations on mineral prices may ruin your efforts (ie : recent spike in Nocxium prices).
6) Use buy orders to acquire your minerals. Trit, pyer, mex and even iso can be easily bought at lower prices. Some hisec systems are settled by miner corps which don't use their minerals at all, or guys with 3-4 accounts (some hulks and an Orca).
7) Do not be afraid to stockpile minerals. Mineral prices have periodic variations. EVE Online isn't real life, you're NOT losing money if you have big stocks.
8) Do not think about margin, think about income : 2 millions per day per per manufacturing slot job with a 2% margin will always be better than a 500.000 isk per day per slot job with 20% margin.
tl;dr version : be prudent, buy low and sell high.
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Fulbert.
Miner - Industrialist |
kingjames488
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Posted - 2009.12.20 03:30:00 -
[14]
Ive been making prolly 90% of my money from manufacturing since i got PE5 and a decent BPO collection...
ofc your not gonna be able to look at the market at the mission hub and calculate much of a profit, everyone and his monkey have already done that.
maybe move somewhere a litle less populated and set up a spot there.
and your prolly not gonna make millions of isk the first day either, everything starts small.
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor
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Posted - 2009.12.20 09:41:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Zifrian on 20/12/2009 09:44:08
The "I mined it so it's free" line only goes so far. I have yet to see areas of the market that would reflect this directly. It's usually due to other factors that people don't bother to consider.
The easiest is that T1 modules are not profitable because they are dropped from rats. Even when you get a 1400mm Howitizer, you can get more money from reprocessing it than selling 90% of the time. That has nothing to do with "I mined the materials so they are free". It's that there is a large supply of T1 modules that people will sell for below cost prices because they didn't produce them. Since the demand is low, they will continue to try and sell them at lower than cost prices. Typically this price is somewhere between the cost to build and the gain from reprocessing, which is reflected in the buy orders.
A second thing is that the market fluctuates and the "buy low, sell high" rule applies. If I buy materials that to build an item and in one month that item goes up in price, then I clearly can sell 'below mineral cost' because I'm selling for what I paid in minerals, not what they would be worth now. Of course you want to get that price now but if someone goes below that price, are they still losing money? All depends on how long they waited and the rate of return they could get all things being equal. Since there is no interest that you could realistically get to do a present value calculation, then inflation is really the only thing you could look at. I'm not sure what EVE's inflation rate is but mineral prices haven't changed much in 2 years so I'm betting it's not much.
Third, what if someone buys materials in another region for below the cost of materials in your comparison region? Are they selling below cost or are they making profit?
Another minor thing I notice is that frigate prices are generally pretty poor near newbie systems because they give those as mission rewards. So you will see T1 frigate prices (for that faction) below cost or pretty near it.
But all in all, the eve market works really well. People can argue the "I mined it so it's free" is the reason for the prices they see, but there are a lot of other things going on that go into the prices you see. I think if you look around you can find profit in T1 production. It might not be huge and flashy, but it's there.
My suggestion is to look into Ammo and maybe Cruiser production. After that, maybe items that are not dropped by rats on missions. I think if you poke around, you will find out what works and what doesn't. Good luck.
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Mara Tessidar
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:03:00 -
[16]
If you're looking for a higher profit margin, try selling in a system that borders low/null security space. People don't want to have to travel all the way out to Jita or another regional hub to make their purchases every time. Items in borderline system markets usually sell higher and faster.
--
 Quote:
Your tactical brilliance shines with the intensity of a thousand suns. No, wait...that's your fleet commander turning into a rapidly-expanding particle cloud.
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Dylan Chan
Gallente
The Maverick Navy
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.21 15:31:00 -
[17]
Fact of Eve-Life. The faster you want the profit, the smaller it will be.
first off know what the cost is for the thing you are selling. If you look at the market and find people selling for under that. Buy them out and resell theirs.
#2 Don't sell in a major market hub. people are lazy. If you can find a good location where there should be demand (look at NPC activities) then place it on market there for right around the cost at the major hub.
#3 Don't over look the smaller Items. A lot of people focus on ships and don't pay attention to ammo and drones.
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