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Zarthan
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Posted - 2003.06.24 21:42:00 -
[1]
It is absolutley useless anymore to manucafacture products when to many complete dofuses sell things at the cost of the minerals to build it in the first place. Now I dont begin to understand how u can not grasp the concept of making profit on what u build but way to many cant and it has driven prices to a point where many thing sell for less then what they cost to build wich is ludicrist. Then your products dont sell ever because to many stupid people sell to low for god knows what reason it really takes a lot of fun out of the game. The solution is I think to implement minimum prices for selling products to prevent this from happening. At least then manucactures could at least make some profit even when pirces slip down to the minimum. Thanks I will hopefully await this addition in a patch soon.
btw if u implement this i'd think at least 25% of cost is resonable profit at bare minimum. as i said before hopefully we will see this soon to fix this problem, and thanks.
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Ra'Wyrm Dracoz
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Posted - 2003.06.24 21:45:00 -
[2]
minimum sell prices is not the solution.
The solution is higher overhead costs.
If the cost of building something was more than just the minerals, then it would force up prices.
It has to be made so that a corp cannot keep selling at a low price for a long time without going bankrupt.
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In this game, "nice" puts no food on the table... |
Harmor
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Posted - 2003.06.24 21:47:00 -
[3]
There should never be minimum prices. The problem you are seeing is that the person making the low priced item has researched their BP such that the minerals necessary to build such item are less.
The builder of heavily researched BP is setting the price at or below the price that someone who hasn't researched their BP.
Smart.
If I where you goto another region and sell your wares.
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Ulfar
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Posted - 2003.06.24 21:47:00 -
[4]
If someone is selling stuff at below production cost buy it all and then resell it elsewhere.
You make money they lose it.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2003.06.25 09:22:00 -
[5]
Increasing production costs/overheads isnt the answer, geezz these people can't do maths already it seems.
However, on the plus side and with all due respect, CCP have shot their own feet on this one. It is impossible to look at a blueprint and tell what you need to manufacture. Its all useless information UNLESS you just HAPPEN to be at Production Efficiency lvl 5.
FOR GODS SAKES. How many more times. Blueprints ARE THE INFORMATION for production.
At least provide a dynamic calculation to display on the screen of the blueprint to tell the current user what their skills will mean in terms of materials for building 1 item of that blueprint.
Surely this can't be too hard. They seem to know the formula behind its operation, and with all due respect, ANY business without this information really isn't a business. We SHOULD know exactly how much it costs to make X, add our own time to the cost, and mark up a profit.
The changes were done without forethought for the effects, and reading blueprints isn't what it should be.
Lets face it, some of these people probably don't know they are making a loss. Hell I can't tell exactly what my costs are for any production until I actually start it. That is rather pointless if you are trying to gather the materials first.
Blueprints should tell you what you need! Exactly! Spot on, to the level you are set at in XX YY skills now, exactly what you need! THEN you can mine and decide what to sell at.
Edited by: Ruffles on 25/06/2003 09:23:47
Hell - CCP I will even write that software aspect of the information for you! Give me the formula, and the information I need to know about what will provide me the skills information and I will do the damned work! :)
Edited by: Ruffles on 25/06/2003 09:24:46
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Sushanta Mog
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Posted - 2003.06.25 12:33:00 -
[6]
If they someone is selling under mineralcost, well sell the minerals then. Or as buy his wares and resell em at a proper price untill he goes under.
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When you have exhausted all possibilities,
remember this - you haven't.
------------------ (Thomas Edison) |
BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.25 13:38:00 -
[7]
The thing is that blueprints, just like all other items, only show their base attributes when in the hangar.
Their actual value can only be seen when "fitted".
e.g. my 250mm rails show a damage mod of 2.5x in my hangar - When fitted, they show a much higher number. :)
As to implementing minimum prices: NO. Survival of the fittest. If your mineral level and PE level are not high enough and you're being undercut by a more efficient producer, tough luck. That's how the real world works.
Edited by: BSOD on 25/06/2003 13:39:00
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Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Xane
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Posted - 2003.06.25 14:25:00 -
[8]
If you are mining the minerals yourself then there is no "cost", only what you consider your time to be worth.
As is said, the price will drop to the point where people can buy the item, recycle it, and sell the minerals for a profit.
x a n e |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.06.25 14:27:00 -
[9]
I think you have enough posts here to make a judgement, bu I'll chime in anyway.
BSOD is spot on. If someone has pent the time to get a production-based character, he will be able to make stuff, and sell it for less than it costs to make it yourself. This happened to me. I got a Missile BP, and a factory, so I thought I'd produce some. my cost price was 100isk more than the selling price of a guy who was manufacturing them a few hops away. So I bowled over there, and bought the stock. Then I sold it on at *my* price.
I actually saved money due to some other guy being a total retard. (or ignorant)
Also, the 'minimum price' you seek will probably still work out below a standard chars capabilities anyway.
And a minimum price would make it almost impossible to sell anything atm, because only the lowest price shows, and if everybody is selling at that price.... pandemonium.
so either sell the mins, or buy out the competition.
.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2003.06.25 15:03:00 -
[10]
Ok BSoD and Drunk maties, you mind showing me the local shop to buy those skills at? And NO I am not creating another alt to do these sorts of things. If thats all that CCP invented the three slots for then what a waste.
We are supposed to be able to obtain, and train these skills in game. Most science skills still aren't available, nor are a lot of the specialised ones.
Soooo. When do you want to buy these? When other people are already killing you because you can't compete? I want to compete, but I don't want to be forced to roll a mule-alt purely to make things. Geezzz.
Come on. Is that everyones answer? This is just like anyother MMO at the moment. 'Ohh roll another alt'. I bought this game, as did many others, because I can train those skills if I want to use them. If I don't I don't have to. However, if they aren't available I can't.
Ohh and blueprints are still wrong. They should tell you BEFORE you have to install them what you need.
Edited by: Ruffles on 25/06/2003 15:03:36
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.06.25 15:45:00 -
[11]
As a builder myself, I do find it bothersome when I see people undercut prices to a point where it would seem more profitable for me to just sell the minerals than to produce items. It is part of the game though, and there are some logical explanations.
Consider these thoughts:
I compare product prices to the generic NPC purchase price. This gives me a baseline, but the NPC doesnĘt always have a demand for the minerals at such a price. As a miner might sell their minerals for less than the generic NPC price, so might builders sell their items for less. It would depend upon how quickly they desire ISK for their product.
Not all players are skilled in the math department or realize the difference in the BP information and actual cost to build. Thus those low prices might just be someone who made some miscalculation and is selling lower than they had intended.
Someone might just be fed up with building stuff and clearing out all their stock.
Someone might have clumsy fingers and typed in the wrong number.
Someone might have fallen for those cheap standing buy orders and the scammer wants to dump the product quickly, so they sell (at a huge profit for them) the product at super low prices to ensure they donĘt get underbid by regular vendors.
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We, as builders, just have to be savvy and try to plan ahead on how to survive through such occurrences. There is no need to implement some game mechanic change to futher remove the freedom of choice.
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Gustavef
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Posted - 2003.06.25 15:54:00 -
[12]
Heck NO on minimum pricing!
I get a lot of my minerals though buying items sold under mineral value. And if someone is under cutting me I have my options. Lower my price, wait till they sell out, or buy up their stock and resell it at my price.
Also learn your market. No point selling standard small lasers in Amarr space. The Pirate drops are so frequent that the market is overflowing.
Control your own inventory and watch your sales. If something isn't selling, then don't make any more.
-gustavef
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.25 17:13:00 -
[13]
"Someone might just be fed up with building stuff and clearing out all their stock."
Been there done that. Was trying to sell 250mm rails in Gallente space. I was being nice and matching people. Was going well for a few days.
Then the price wars started.
By the end I sold em' at 2-3k over my cost (below cost for anyone without high PE and mineral research) just to get the stock cleared out.
What really needs to be implemented are not minumum prices, but a fair way for manufacturers to try and differentiate themselves. (I've made some proposals for stat improvement research that would make this possible.)
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Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Aerin Osaa
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Posted - 2003.06.26 11:59:00 -
[14]
at least let us know who we will buy from before we purchase stuff. For example, if a company gave me a good deal on a cruiser, i would like to buy stuff from them again in preference to other similarly priced products, but i can't do this without contacting them, which is more hassle than its worth.
Also, perhaps capping the sell price at 25 or 50% of the market average for that region would be an idea. I am getting fed up with people selling loot for 1% of its worth. Some items are selling for 1000 isk when they could easily go for 10,000isk.
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Harald Sworddew
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Posted - 2003.06.26 12:31:00 -
[15]
the whole market isn't working how it should be. and it's mostly because of the n00bs (like me) and their ingame-progression.
example: the market for isogen is going down rapidly, because nearly every n00b is mining omber as soon as he/she can. i bet, the next market going down will be kernit (and so on).
and i think the prices of goods and the prices of minerals are so low because the same problem.
the problem: to find an solution for this :/ and minimum-prices are not a solution.
Edited by: Harald Sworddew on 26/06/2003 12:32:09
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Aerin Osaa
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Posted - 2003.06.26 12:34:00 -
[16]
out of curiosity, what would happen if ALL NPC supply and demand was removed? Obviously, its too late for this to be done though.
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Harald Sworddew
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Posted - 2003.06.26 12:35:00 -
[17]
you can't remove the npc-vendors, because of the n00bs.
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Merell
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Posted - 2003.06.26 12:58:00 -
[18]
If all NPC damand where removed the market would utterly and completly crash.
A working market needs to be created where people actually need to buy stuff from eachother. Creating minimum prices don't make the market work.
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Aras
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Posted - 2003.06.26 18:16:00 -
[19]
Well for the players taht get the products and mineral for free... any price is 100% profit.. whether it's lower than your price or not.
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
Tyr Guann
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Posted - 2003.06.26 23:59:00 -
[20]
what the devs need to do, is increase NPC demand for everything. i'd like to see a few NPCs fly about, making it a truly dynamic universe, where NPCs buy stuff like cruisers and frigates from the market, saving PC maufacturers from engaging in price wars |
Aerin Osaa
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Posted - 2003.06.27 10:11:00 -
[21]
they did say something about having NPCs mining or something. Real NPC convoys would be good too (rather than the pathetic ones atm)
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.06.27 10:46:00 -
[22]
I create opportunities for trade with the pricing of my loot. If anyone knows where I hunt, they can pick up all sorts of items for 20% less than anywhere else. so they get at least 20% profit per item.
if you set a minimum the price will just drop to meet it, and then you can't buy/sell stuff anymore.
Have you ever tried buying tritanium at 1isk in empire space? it's difficult, because some arse has got there first, and put in an order for 100million units (which he obviously couldn't afford), and his order comes before everybody elses.
Giving people the option to buy/sell to a specific customer would alleviate some of the griefing. I'd rather trade with someone who puts in a decent sized order, than these greedy slags.
Now I think of it, it would be pretty funny to actually sell someone 100million trit, just to see if they can afford it...
.
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.27 13:33:00 -
[23]
At least those fake buy orders are being changed so that you have to have the money to place a buy order.
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Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.06.27 13:42:00 -
[24]
Thank god for that.
.
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Aras
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Posted - 2003.06.27 15:03:00 -
[25]
Just make every HAVE to buy from me at my own set prices.. that would be fun.
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
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