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I don't understand what is so difficult about this-

The peak cost of ships *will* decrease once insurance is removed. Oversupply? Every ship priced under the insurance payout break even point is instantly bought and insured and self destructed. Once all those same ships are built but not destroyed due to insurance fraud there is your massive oversupply.

Industrialists and miners will continue to overproduce if insurance goes away, simply because they can do it relatively AFK. It's the stuff that costs hard man-hours that remains expensive (see T3). Insurance subsidizes mineral prices, otherwise minerals would be driven into the dirt. So be it. Eventually they'll get a clue.

And as for cheaper ships, but more 'real loss': DUH. That's the WHOLE POINT. The ships will cost less relative to other existing ships (T2) but now it'll actually cost you something when you lose one instead of MAKING ISK on the loss.

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Originally by: Mrs Thaiberian

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And for the excess of minerals.. nerf roids spawn? make it really impossible to do it AFK?

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Originally by: Callista Sincera

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Originally by: Mrs Thaiberian

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And for the excess of minerals.. nerf roids spawn? make it really impossible to do it AFK?

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Nerfing mining yield would be stupid. The only reason people still mine, is because they don't have to pay a 100% attention and can do stuff on the desktop while mining.
There have been plenty of suggestions on how to make it harder to AFK-mine and I think that would be the better approach. If however that is done, mining yield has to be increased, too. Shouldn't be a problem though, since you remove a lot of previous AFK-miners from the pool, so it's ok that the rest of them produces more minerals.
Also reduce minerals from missions by reducing the amount of T1 loot. :)

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Originally by: Bodega Cat

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The idea of "fun" as a premium and as a reason for people to do things at certain steps at a loss is a very very important reality the more number crunching inclined are often dismissive, and ignorant about. While the more min/max type way of seeing things, is more profitable and more efficient (and measure their own fun in this regard) way to play EVE, but at the end of the day they must concede that they are in the minority.

Its the one thing that always seems to throw a curveball into the most obvious of predictions/expectations. You really should try it though sometime, go do something you have fun doing, and then try your hardest to sell the evidence of it at a loss because you don't care, you had a great time getting it and just put your OWN value on it for what it is. If its valued higher than the market, that is fine, keep it forever (like the one piece of ammo i kept from my first kill, i want to turn it into a necklace some day)... If its lower than the market, then let it go, you had fun getting it.

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Originally by: clamslayer

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I agree with Bellum Eternus, i dont think there should be insurance payout. What makes eve so great is that it hurts when your ship gets destroyed. It makes for a better game.

So i guess im going to be a "terrorist" for a while because its fun, and i want to do everything i can do to change eve for the better


KILLED 6 HULKS WOOT WOOT!!

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Yep. Myself and a few of my mates are going to become terrorists in game in the hope of forcing CCP to change their game design.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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It takes one character and some dedication and you can see 100b / mo.

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LOL! You need to come up with some proof for that. This number looks like it came straight out of your ass.

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My corpmates are currently researching 18 Abaddon BPOs up. Each Abaddon can be self destructed for a profit of 12-15m each, not including the massive profits from Amarr specific salvage, which is more valuable than most.

In order to make 1b/day you need about 66 Abaddons destroyed in a 24h period. We can do much more than that. In order to achieve 100b ISK per month, you need to destroy 200 Abaddons per day.[...]

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Originally by: Dalieus Dakarn

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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It takes one character and some dedication and you can see 100b / mo.

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LOL! You need to come up with some proof for that. This number looks like it came straight out of your ass.

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My corpmates are currently researching 18 Abaddon BPOs up. Each Abaddon can be self destructed for a profit of 12-15m each, not including the massive profits from Amarr specific salvage, which is more valuable than most.

In order to make 1b/day you need about 66 Abaddons destroyed in a 24h period. We can do much more than that. In order to achieve 100b ISK per month, you need to destroy 200 Abaddons per day.[...]

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Ok... I need some help understanding this.

Ships take minerals to build. Even at the basic insurance payout, the money gained does not cover the cost of the minerals used to build said ship. If you PURCHASE insurance, that costs ISK, you must now recover the ISK spent on insurance plus the cost of the minerals in order to "gain ISK" in the destruction of the ship.

At what point does it take less minerals to produce a battleship to where it yields a profit from base insurance payout? Is that even possible?

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I bolded the part where you are in error.

It's very easy to buy minerals at a price for which a manufactured ship costs less than the insurance payout minus the cost of the insurance.

Yes, it's possible. People are doing it as I type this. Not only is it possible, but it's becoming increasingly profitable to do so with salvage and LP from the FW LP store compounding the ISK/hour profit.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I bolded the part where you are in error.

It's very easy to buy minerals at a price for which a manufactured ship costs less than the insurance payout minus the cost of the insurance.

Yes, it's possible. People are doing it as I type this. Not only is it possible, but it's becoming increasingly profitable to do so with salvage and LP from the FW LP store compounding the ISK/hour profit.

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Originally by: Nede***

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I agree , the strong point of eve is that losses matter...well...they should...umm..shouldnt they? ...

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Originally by: Trathen

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Edited by: Trathen on 27/12/2009 02:44:01

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I bolded the part where you are in error.

It's very easy to buy minerals at a price for which a manufactured ship costs less than the insurance payout minus the cost of the insurance.

Yes, it's possible. People are doing it as I type this. Not only is it possible, but it's becoming increasingly profitable to do so with salvage and LP from the FW LP store compounding the ISK/hour profit.

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Uh-huh. And after that, it's more profitable to build Geddons and self-destruct them than it is to just re-sell the minerals at standard price, amirite? What does this have to do with insurance? - I'll rephrase that: How is it a problem?

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1. The combination of free market with artificial price levels does not play very well at all. This is exactly the same reason why CCP removed NPC sell orders for shuttles (artificial limits on trit prices). There's no reason why one artificial limit on trit prices is bad, but another is acceptable (and this one isn't).
2. Risk vs reward is ridiculously skewed. When all T1 subcapitals cost roughly the same amount of zero (ironically with battleships often the cheapest at -2m ISK or so), there's no price disincentive to fly the bigger, "more expensive" ships. In particular, cruisers get screwed over by battleships, which fit the same class of modules, but more of them and so have better tank and damage. The only real benefits of a cruiser are slightly better speed & locking time; and the lower threat you may pose in some people's eyes. But if you could actually lose five 5m cruisers for the same price as a 25m BC, that would be a lot more interesting.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Yep. Myself and a few of my mates are going to become terrorists in game in the hope of forcing CCP to change their game design.

The issue is insurance. It's a huge ISK faucet, and when exploited on an industrial scale it's capable of dumping literally hundreds of billions of raw ISK into the game every month. This is a bad thing.

Carebears want insurance removed from suicide ganking payouts but they don't want the insurance removed from their own ships. I simply want insurance removed completely from every ship, at every level. Let new characters enjoy a three month grace period of insurance use and ban people for using 'insurance alts' for insurance fraud, just like you would if you were using alts as disposable hitmen and recycling them after their sec is ruined.

Right now it's very easy to use a T1 fit Geddon as an example and have the total loss be around 4m ISK after insurance. I can kill just about any sort of smallish cruiser size ship solo in high sec with this, and I can kill BCs and BS with only a pair or maybe three or four. No ship is safe in highsec with some simple tactics and a little bit of coordination from a few friends.

Ramp up the scale and you can kill freighters and Orcas quite easily. But my goal isn't to simply kill freighters. It's to make CCP sit up and take notice of the horribly broken game design that is insurance.

Currently there are multiple players that are self destructing ships on a literally industrial scale, making tens of billions of raw ISK per month with 'insurance fraud'. This causes inflation and will in the long term hurt the economy. So I'm going to start using this mechanism to inflict the pain of financial loss upon as many players as possible so that they now have a direct and personal stake in seeing insurance removed from the game completely.

Is this griefing? Absolutely not. I'm profiting from my actions, so it's piracy. Completely legit gameplay. Insurance simply facilitates my particular tactics, and once those are made obsolete by the removal of insurance, I'll revert to more traditional ways of doing things.

The in game killings will continue on as wide a scale as possible until the game is changed for the better with the removal of insurance. Anyone interested in assisting me with this campaign of militant destruction can contact me in game. The more the merrier.

Oh, and one more thing- jump freighter pilots, we're coming for you.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Yep. Myself and a few of my mates are going to become terrorists in game in the hope of forcing CCP to change their game design.

The issue is insurance. It's a huge ISK faucet, and when exploited on an industrial scale it's capable of dumping literally hundreds of billions of raw ISK into the game every month. This is a bad thing.

Carebears want insurance removed from suicide ganking payouts but they don't want the insurance removed from their own ships. I simply want insurance removed completely from every ship, at every level. Let new characters enjoy a three month grace period of insurance use and ban people for using 'insurance alts' for insurance fraud, just like you would if you were using alts as disposable hitmen and recycling them after their sec is ruined.

Right now it's very easy to use a T1 fit Geddon as an example and have the total loss be around 4m ISK after insurance. I can kill just about any sort of smallish cruiser size ship solo in high sec with this, and I can kill BCs and BS with only a pair or maybe three or four. No ship is safe in highsec with some simple tactics and a little bit of coordination from a few friends.

Ramp up the scale and you can kill freighters and Orcas quite easily. But my goal isn't to simply kill freighters. It's to make CCP sit up and take notice of the horribly broken game design that is insurance.

Currently there are multiple players that are self destructing ships on a literally industrial scale, making tens of billions of raw ISK per month with 'insurance fraud'. This causes inflation and will in the long term hurt the economy. So I'm going to start using this mechanism to inflict the pain of financial loss upon as many players as possible so that they now have a direct and personal stake in seeing insurance removed from the game completely.

Is this griefing? Absolutely not. I'm profiting from my actions, so it's piracy. Completely legit gameplay. Insurance simply facilitates my particular tactics, and once those are made obsolete by the removal of insurance, I'll revert to more traditional ways of doing things.

The in game killings will continue on as wide a scale as possible until the game is changed for the better with the removal of insurance. Anyone interested in assisting me with this campaign of militant destruction can contact me in game. The more the merrier.

Oh, and one more thing- jump freighter pilots, we're coming for you.

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