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nails
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Posted - 2003.06.24 21:55:00 -
[1]
Does anyone else here think they are nerfed a bit too much? The most I've ever seen one do without any shield hardeners is like 150 damage to shields with a Thunderbolt. Cruise missiles do about 200 stock, then adding the 5% per skill level.
Equipping a few shield hardeners completely nullifies these missile attacks, and the most damage they do to you is the inconvenience of being knocked backwards 1k or so.
Torpedoes stock a good 400 or so damage. To even effectively use them on an enemy you have to stop the person dead in their tracks then launch the thing and hope it hits before they log off. Shouldn't something like at Torpedo that requires a practically unmoving target deal out a deathly amount of damage?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point in the game missiles just do not seem to be a fear factor in any way. On top of that they are expensive, not so much to build but on the market. As my friend Digital pointed out, 30k for one cruise missile should guarantee some powerful hitting power.
Missiles are supposed to do more damage, I mean.. It's a missile for godsĘ sake! My projectile gun deals out more damage with one bullet than one of these 30k missiles.
I'm steering less towards *****ing, and more towards some pro missile action. Missiles are fun to use, but nobody is going to use them if they play bumper cars with enemy ships.
thank you for you time ^_-
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http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
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Kayosoni
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:00:00 -
[2]
The one thing they have going for them is Fire and Forget.
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Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server |
Vachir
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:22:00 -
[3]
400 is not 'deathly' when guns do 200 per shot per gun. Just equip 4 decent guns and some damage mods and forget about missiles until guns are nerfed. If missiles were to be brought inline with guns they would be doing upwards of 1000-2000 damage per hit, as a good set of guns can easily do 800 in one guaranteed to hit volley, and for a fraction of the cost.
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:31:00 -
[4]
Perhaps an alternative to just upping the damage is to make missiles bypass shields altogether. This would make them more deadly in combat and hard to quickly recover from.
Additionally, more fear of missiles would be generated as they would then have a higher chance of damaging internal systems, thus forcing players to break from combat for repairs instead of just waiting for shields to automatically regenerate or just hitting the shield booster a few times.
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nails
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:32:00 -
[5]
That's not the point, the point is people "want" to use missles, and as you pointed out like I did, missles do crap damage. Missiles should be fixed so that people that want to use missiles can, and will pump in some good damage. Even equil to the projectile weapons would be fine.
I've been hit with a volly of 50 or so cruise missiles in less than a minute and taken maybe 5% damage to my shields. That's just lame, and I think it should be fixed.
You can't stop a projectile, laser, or hybrid from hitting your ship like you can with a missle. At least with a missile you have the choice to block it with either smart bombs, or defenders. Thus taking Zero damage from it. That's why I think missiles should do more damage. Right now people do not even have to worry about carrying defender missiles or smart bombs because they don't do any damage anyway.
Edited by: nails on 24/06/2003 22:36:00
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http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
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ChironV
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:38:00 -
[6]
Agreed. Missles should do far more damage than they currently do.
OR
Nerf the guns.
Better yet give some missles microwarp capacity. They are too slow. I would expect them to do 3000 to 6000m/s. The way they are now, unless you can jam and web your missles will be left eating dust with someone with a MWD.
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It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
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nails
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:43:00 -
[7]
That's a good point Chiron. a Mark II badger with 4 LIF boosters and 2 cargo expanders can fly almost twice as fast as cruise missles. "Cruise" is supposed to mean fast right?
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http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:47:00 -
[8]
The front load damage a good size missle salvo can deliver is very good (especially in cruise or torp form). In terms of DPS, missles are absolutely horrible due to launcher reload times (H50 launch times are rediculous even with missle launcher lvl 5) and travel time to target. Plus they can be destroyed by defenders or SBs. On top of everything else they are costly - even when making them yourself.
I seriously doubt missles will stay as they are now. They don't have a lot of purpose end game as they are now and need improvement.
Either increase launcher speeds or missle speed across the board. Or just raise the missle launcher skill bonus to 10% bonus to firing speed instead of 5. The H50 launcher time needs to be lowered a couple seconds also.
I also think a missle should hold the speed of the ship it was fired from and slowly go back down to their max speed if flying over that speed. I hate it when flying fast in a caracal on a missle strafing run and all 5 missles instantly slow to their top speed after launching. Makes no sense in terms of physics - but then again their is no sounds in space either....
Right now the most effective way to use them aggressively is just MWD strafe over your target and release the payload almost on top of them - especially when using torpedos. That is fine and dandy in a caracal, but I don't see a big fat ass battle ship doing high speed strafing runs. And how many launcher turrest does the raven have ??
The damage is fine that they do imo. CCP needs to fix the DPS average on missles. Front load damage does not mean much if you can not deliver it fast with the long span you have to wait in which you can deliver it again.
Edited by: The Wretch on 24/06/2003 23:24:54
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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nukLhead
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:56:00 -
[9]
i say the problem is with shield hardeners
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:59:00 -
[10]
Missiles need attention in every department right through to more (varied) launchers and a secondary ability to hold missiles other than in the cargo.
Light missiles need their speed trebling, hvy doubling.
Also need more types - such as skipper (stealth) missiles, AoE (effect) and so forth.
Atm its all VERY dull , lifeless, expensive and rather worthless being a missilier.
.
Oh and they need to fix defender issiles.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:15:00 -
[11]
Simple fix to missles, increase damage 25%, increase speed by 100%.. also reduce the cost of missles, the price is ridiculously high compared to ammo..
There's just no point in missles right now, turrets out damage them, they miss, they can be countered easily.. too much going against them. Currently having a ship with a lot of missle launchers is a joke. Missles should be feared, not laughed at.
Either missles need a MAJOR boost or turrets need a MAJOR nerf.
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 25/06/2003 00:26:42
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Vachir
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:19:00 -
[12]
"i say the problem is with shield hardeners"
So you want cruisers to die in 5-10 seconds instead of 40-60?
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Kayosoni
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:21:00 -
[13]
I agree with the above post. Nukl, that was an utterly stupid statement.
Edited by: Kayosoni on 24/06/2003 23:24:19
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Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server |
nukLhead
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:34:00 -
[14]
-70% damage is insane, shield hardeners should be a tactic; not a requirement.
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nukLhead
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:35:00 -
[15]
thanks for your reply kayo, you contribute so much to this thread.
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loci
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:38:00 -
[16]
agree..the speed is ridiculously slow at the moment.
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Kayosoni
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:46:00 -
[17]
[nim]
Edited by: Kayosoni on 24/06/2003 23:57:45
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Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server |
nukLhead
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:53:00 -
[18]
nt
Edited by: nukLhead on 24/06/2003 23:53:57
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Lola
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:54:00 -
[19]
I think it would be cool if you could launch the whole contents of your launcher. Like in Mecha Anime where a mech shoots out 16 missiles at once. That would be awesome (totally sweet). It could get wiped out by one smartbomb or it could turn the tides of battle.
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Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
Vachir
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:57:00 -
[20]
The point is, guns need to be nerfed so that 1) combat takes longer, and 2) other weapons like missiles and drones become more popular. Personally I think that guns should actually be the least effective weapon type as there are no direct counters for them as there are for missiles (smartbombs, defenders, manuvering) and drones (smartbombs, fast tracking guns, autotargeting, other drones).
Shield hardeners do need to be nerfed as well, since they are basically required equipment (a +40 all and +70 EM at least). But for right now, they're the only thing keeping combat from degenerating into 1 shot kills, and by no means are they what is causing the gun vs missile imbalance problem. For right now it's a good thing to have some overpowered defensive options, as offense is still overwhelmingly more overpowered.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.25 00:26:00 -
[21]
Shield hardeners arent the problem they are the only protection one has from guys running 4+ heatsinks/gyros using 5+ turret ships. Insane damage from turrets and mediocre to negligable damage from missles, is the real issue.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Hylidan
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Posted - 2003.06.25 00:34:00 -
[22]
Just a note... Shield hardener effects are not a direct bonus, but a percent boost to the current resistance bonus.
I.e. Explosive resistance is 60% on most shields, or... 40% vulnerability. The +70% bonus from a shield hardener would reduce the 40% to 28%, or there-by increase your resistance to 72%. Over all result is a 12% reduction in damage taken from Explosives.
To check the math, you can mount one, undock, and turn it on auto-repeat. Then show info on your ship, and your current damage reduction values will be shown.
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Hylidan
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Posted - 2003.06.25 00:35:00 -
[23]
Just a note... Shield hardener effects are not a direct bonus, but a percent boost to the current resistance bonus.
I.e. Explosive resistance is 60% on most shields, or... 40% vulnerability. The +70% bonus from a shield hardener would reduce the 40% to 28%, or there-by increase your resistance to 72%. Over all result is a 12% reduction in damage taken from Explosives.
To check the math, you can mount one, undock, and turn it on auto-repeat. Then show info on your ship, and your current damage reduction values will be shown.
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Fallen Angel
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Posted - 2003.06.25 02:26:00 -
[24]
There are other defenses to counter heavy guns... but I'd perfer to keep that to myself.
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Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.06.25 02:53:00 -
[25]
yes indeed. as nails pointed me out in the thread, missiles are grossly underpowered. today, i came fully stocked with two H50 devastator cruise missile salvos. went into a belt of sanshas, fired a salvo. watched them get 5km out, suddenly POOF! shot down by a laser. ok, i let him target me, so the laser would be firing on my ship instead. launched another salvo. 10km out.... POOF! drat.. a defender. so, now i am ****ed. i load up two salvos of torpedos, suicide run past him, launch them, and they slowly track him... track him.... ... track him...... (at this point i stepped outside to go build a boat, perhaps write a book) i came back with a beard and long fingernails to see the torpedo get blown away by a laser. one hit, the other didnt. i just love missiles. spend 2 weeks training for them and they have the equivalent force of a nerf bat with helium balloons on it.
to make them usable you should:
give them an extremely large area effect (torpedos are... big. they should damage at least a 5km area. dont nukes take out a few miles in real life?)
increase speed a LOT. 100% would be a starter.
make cruise missiles and torpedos extremely hard to shoot down. i am sick of seeing a 90,000 isk torpedo shot down by a cheap little defender.
give them better guidance systems. this is the future people, why are missiles playing follow the leader with the enemy? they should be predicting trajectories to arrive where it will hurt most.
at the moment i am considering dropping my H50s altogether, they serve no purpose for me other than to put on a fireworks show.
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.06.25 08:05:00 -
[26]
No,
If you fit an EM tac shield that gives you 70% EM resistance, your shield resistance will change to that amount (since most shield resistance to EM is 0). If you already have, say, 10% resistance, the total will be the add of them both.
IMHO, tac shields are working exactly how they should. No nerf, no boost. Try using them, you'll see.
About missiles: completely right. But here is why they don't do more dmg:
1. lag. missiles are completely affected by lag issues.
2. defense. There is NO efficient way of defending from missiles, and it is even harder if you are just a bit lagged. I'm tired of launching defenders and they simply orbit my ship while the enemy missile is flying to my ship, ignoring them completely. Smartbombs ? c'mon, they are useless if you lag.
What I suggest:
no dmg tweaking (or, if so, a 10% increase in dmg tops).
ROF tweaking. Currently, a 5 second for an offmarket light assault launcher that can only load 3 light missiles is too high. M12 standard has 12 rof, and heavies have an even higher rof. a 20 to 30% decrease in rof would be nice.
Load tweaking. Please, make the launchers capable of loading more missiles, and specialized ones. M12 standard and assaults would only be loaded with light missiles, but with more capacity. If you want to fire heavies, torps, cruisers, you would need a heavy launcher but with more capacity - like 30 heavies or so).
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Game
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Posted - 2003.06.25 09:19:00 -
[27]
"The one thing they have going for them is Fire and Forget."
Hmmm, i disagree, if you start using these and you target gets too close then you can cause some damage on yourself (could just be a small amount), then what happens?
Well.... you become target no.1 of your own FoF missiles, and when your firing off 2 volleys at a time from Assault launchers, that can be devastating to an unsuspecting merlin pirate - yeah that's right, speaking with 100% experience here.
It's not so much a problem when you use a cruiser as you can take the impact and you'll normally be hitting much bigger targets that keep at range.
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Karsa Orlong
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Posted - 2003.06.28 07:55:00 -
[28]
A heavy launcher can be equipped a lot more easily than a decent cruiser weapon. They have their place as filler weaponry, plus they have plenty 'scare' factor in Pvp.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.28 08:34:00 -
[29]
Tac Shields work fine. I use a Heat Dissipation device (+70% resistance to thermal) when fighting Angel Hunters because they use Flamestrikes. A direct missile hit to my shields yields 12 damage. It does not nullify the damage from the missile.
As for missiles themselves, I'd have to ask how many launchers people are equipping. A single missile is mostly useless under almost every circumstance. It may get expensive to launch 12 missiles to kill a single foe, but we're not talking F16s and Sidewinders here. F16s have a noticeable lack of shields ;)
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Fusco T
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Posted - 2003.06.28 08:48:00 -
[30]
Actually if you look at how ships are designed you will see that to compare apples to apples here you would need to compare 2 missles to 1 turret.
The ships that get 5 turrets get 0 miss. The 4 turret + 2 miss ships can have 6 active damage dealers.
So is 1 turret better than 2 miss? Then again are you really looking at all the ship has to offer including it's 5% bonus.
Thorax and maller both have 5 turret however maller has bonus to cap use of energy weaps. Even with this bonus running all energy will leave you near defenseless.
In fact I wouldn't be surprised if some maller pilots abandon energy in favor of projectile so they can have all weapons use same damage pump, thus giving up their 5% bonus.
Delivering a torp is supposed to be hard. Keep in mind there are no counter measures flack and flares to discourage them. Also these do big splash damage which normal torps do not.
So in all I would say it is fairly balanced.
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