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Er'Damiano
Olimpo di Zeus
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 11:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
Before someone say it, yes there are tons of threads asking why t2 fury missiles do less damage than t1 variations, and i've read them all. In those threads the common answer is "the explosion radius and explosion velocity is worse so you have to use target painters and rigor/flare rigs". And i'm doing it, i use a meta 4 target painter (switching to republic fleet soon) and two t1 rigor rigs, but while running a mission did some tests aganist a battleship, and with big surprise t1s did still more damage than furys. i could understand aganist a cruiser or a frigate (where i use precisions and get much better dps) but aganist a battleship? how it can be? what i'm doing wrong? should i switch to 1 flare and 1 rigor? i've guided missile precision at lvl4 and target navigation prediction at lvl5 |
Digg Kula
DK Laboratory
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Let's strip everything out that enhances a missile and just look at the raw stats.
Focusing on Heavy Missiles, you have Furies, Standard and Precision.
Base stats are
Furies EV 97 ER 215 D 192
Standard EV 81 ER 125 D 150
Precision EV 87 ER 112 D 130
Simply looking at that furies should deal more damage that anything else.
Now lets give ourselves a target:
cruiser with speed 175 and signature radius of 145
battleship with speed 94 and signature radius of 460
The standard rules with missles is:
EV > speed to deal max damage
ER < signature radius to deal max damage
And lets use a really simple boiled down formula:
Damage = D * EV/speed * Sig/ER where EV/speed and Sig/ER cannot be grater than 1
We get the following damage on a cruiser
Furies 72 37%
Standard 67 45%
Precision 65 50%
And on the battleship
Furies 192 100%
Standard 129 86%
Precision 120 93%
The first number is the amount of damage dealt to the target with the effectiveness of the damage. Although heavy missiles are aimed at being anti-cruiser weapons a FURY missile used against a cruiser is much less effective than STANDARD or PRECISION missile used. It should still do the most damage but most of that damage is wasted. Think about having a smaller circle inside a larger circle and how much area is not occupied by the smaller circle.
However the FURY missile used against a battleship is much more effective than STANDARD or PRECISION missile used.
Therefore as a rule of thumb FURY missiles should be used against targets one size larger than yourself.
The aim is to get both EV/speed & Sig/ER as high as possible. This is because if EV/speed or Sig/ER is low your damage is reduced drastically but both EV/Speed or Sig/ER is capped as they cannot be more than 100% effective. |
Er'Damiano
Olimpo di Zeus
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 14:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
lol i gave alot of attention to the details and forgot to say the most important thing: i'm speaking about cruise missiles in a lvl4 mission; so following your reasoning t2 cruise missiles are totally useless in a lvl4 since there is nothing one size larger than a bs, but when i look at fitting loadouts on battleclinic almost all use only furys |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
273
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Posted - 2012.06.21 14:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Er'Damiano wrote:lol i gave alot of attention to the details and forgot to say the most important thing: i'm speaking about cruise missiles in a lvl4 mission; so following your reasoning t2 cruise missiles are totally useless in a lvl4 since there is nothing one size larger than a bs, but when i look at fitting loadouts on battleclinic almost all use only furys
If you're using cruise missiles and don't use Rigor rigs you're doing it wrong. RNI decently fitted is just a rat murderer but fragile against small targets like assault web/scram rats, that's why they have a decent drone bay.
Even in pvp regular Raven in good conditions will murder everything decently tackled and has more than enough tank to let logis do their job. Few fly them because those are stupidly slow and have almost capital sign radius but when it comes to pure dps there's nothing to be ashamed of using cruise ravens.
brb |
Digg Kula
DK Laboratory
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 14:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Again just using raw damage
Furies EV 58 ER 550 D 384
Standard EV 69 ER 300 D 300
Same battleship
battleship with speed 94 and signature radius of 460
Damage dealt and efficiency
D 198 52%
D 220 73%
You can see that with the numbers you will need to increase your EV and decrease your ER.
Using a really simple view the EV is reducing damage by 38% whereas the ER is reducing damage by 16%.
Therefore one should try to aim to increase EV more than ER. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
273
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 14:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Digg Kula wrote:Again just using raw damage
Furies EV 58 ER 550 D 384
Standard EV 69 ER 300 D 300
Same battleship
battleship with speed 94 and signature radius of 460
Damage dealt and efficiency
D 198 52%
D 220 73%
You can see that with the numbers you will need to increase your EV and decrease your ER.
Using a really simple view the EV is reducing damage by 38% whereas the ER is reducing damage by 16%.
Therefore one should try to aim to increase EV more than ER.
Actually it might be a matter of perception or dmg formula "buggy" but after testing both applied dps was higher with rigors than "can't name rig for velocity explosion" (meh)
On paper yes, seems interesting for battleship sized ships.
brb |
Er'Damiano
Olimpo di Zeus
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 14:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Er'Damiano wrote:lol i gave alot of attention to the details and forgot to say the most important thing: i'm speaking about cruise missiles in a lvl4 mission; so following your reasoning t2 cruise missiles are totally useless in a lvl4 since there is nothing one size larger than a bs, but when i look at fitting loadouts on battleclinic almost all use only furys If you're using cruise missiles and don't use Rigor rigs you're doing it wrong. RNI decently fitted is just a rat murderer but fragile against small targets like assault web/scram rats, that's why they have a decent drone bay. Even in pvp regular Raven in good conditions will murder everything decently tackled and has more than enough tank to let logis do their job. Few fly them because those are stupidly slow and have almost capital sign radius but when it comes to pure dps there's nothing to be ashamed of using cruise ravens.
as i said in the frist post i'm using two t1 rigor rigs  so i should switch to 1 rigor and 1 flare? i'll make some tests |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
48
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Posted - 2012.06.21 16:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Er'Damiano wrote:what i'm doing wrong?
1. You're only using one target painter.
2. You're probably using a ship without target painter bonuses.
3. You don't have guided missile precision at five.
4. You are using +5% implants for missiles, right? |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate
Sailors of the Sacred Spice
298
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Posted - 2012.06.21 16:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Er'Damiano wrote:what i'm doing wrong? 1. You're only using one target painter. 2. You're probably using a ship without target painter bonuses. 3. You don't have guided missile precision at five. 4. You are using +5% implants for missiles, right?
By this point, your faction cruises will be able to hit cruisers perfectly, thus decreasing mission time.
No matter what you do, these fury cruises with their 25% larger exp radius and lower exp velocity compared to... torps, will take longer to clear sites.
Standings Improvement Service
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2012.06.22 07:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
I just use tech 1's it pissed me off that the higher damage missiles did less damage. So I just decided to use the cheapest. |
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Alara IonStorm
2484
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Posted - 2012.06.22 07:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
My Furies do full Damage to Battleship Rats. I hit them when they are in hull and get the exact same volley as in EFT. I even checked out the resists of the rats on Chrukkers I was firing at, full damage through and through. I have no implants, Guided Missile Precision 3, now 4 but 3 then, low target painter skills with a single meta 3 painter and 3 Rigor Rigs. I use 2 Painters for Angel Missions.
Furies for me do the pretty much same amount to Battlecruisers as standards (2 Shots) and I use standards on Cruisers. Basically it is one reload in between Below Cruisers and Above Cruisers. I don't use Faction because Furies are cheaper and faction missiles do less damage to Battleships (I.E Furies do full and have the most Volley / DPS.)
I used to use Precision on my Raven when I had CCC Rigs but since switching to Rigors they do less Damage then Standards vs Cruisers.
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Kalel Nimrott
Wishful Desires Inc.
Armada Assail
12
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Posted - 2012.06.22 11:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Heavy Precisions are only good against drones, right? I get a better perfonce against sleepers frigs with t1, using painters of course |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
206
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 12:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:Heavy Precisions are only good against drones, right? I get a better perfonce against sleepers frigs with t1, using painters of course
i wasted some time EFTwarrioring recently and came to the conclusion that against a 35m sig, precisions break even with regular t1 only at speeds over ~500m/s and then it's not by much. if you're running anything but C1 i'd advise to load faction to quickly deal with frigs then reload fury and be done.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Kalel Nimrott
Wishful Desires Inc.
Armada Assail
12
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
But the cost difference vs performance really doesn't make them a choice for pve. Pvp, like always, is another story. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
206
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 21:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:But the cost difference vs performance really doesn't make them a choice for pve. Pvp, like always, is another story.
in a rigor rigged tengu, faction missiles are the difference between 3shotting and 4shotting sleeper frigs and for any bigger target you use rage anyway.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
309
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Kalel Nimrott wrote:But the cost difference vs performance really doesn't make them a choice for pve. Pvp, like always, is another story. in a rigor rigged tengu, faction missiles are the difference between 3shotting and 4shotting sleeper frigs and for any bigger target you use rage anyway.
This
brb |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
108
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Posted - 2012.06.23 19:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Exploited Engineer wrote:Er'Damiano wrote:what i'm doing wrong? 1. You're only using one target painter. 2. You're probably using a ship without target painter bonuses. 3. You don't have guided missile precision at five. 4. You are using +5% implants for missiles, right? By this point, your faction cruises will be able to hit cruisers perfectly, thus decreasing mission time. No matter what you do, these fury cruises with their 25% larger exp radius and lower exp velocity compared to... torps, will take longer to clear sites.
furies are pretty damn awesome, increase kill speed on battleships quite nicely. and if there are a ton of cruisers can always just reload. |
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