| Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
369
   |
Posted - 2012.06.22 16:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
There used to be a trick to cyno in a ship directly into a POS's shields. This was remedied, such that cynoing a ship too close to the shields resulted in the cynoing-in ship manifesting 15 km's from the POS shield, or some such.
What if all cyno's were similarly "fixed," such that it's not possible to cyno within dock range of a station, jump range of a gate, nor overtly close to a POS's shields.
CONS:
This would slow down logistics (to which I must profusely appologize to the under-appreciated workhorse of EvE).
This would make logistics operations significantly less safe, but still very manageable!!!
PROS:
This would make logistics operations SIGNFICANTLY less safe, but still very manageable!!!
In NPC space (nullsec & lowsec), the locals actually make it even more difficult for another entity to move in...
The real question, why is this needed??
At the moment, it is extremely easy to move good's to and from Highsec to anywhere in nullsec. Cyno mechanics, when done proficiently, remove almost all risk in moving (dockable) capitals. The goal of this change, is to subtly nerf the jump mechanic in a manner that doesn't BREAK them, but adds a reasonable risk to this mostly riskless form of travel.
I look forward to comments as to why this is not needed, how this will adversely alter the game, any supporting comments, etc... |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Test Alliance Please Ignore
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
So, you want us to need to either have safe towers along all cyno routes or to have escort fleets.
Okay.
Enjoy the massive increase in T2 prices. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
369
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:So, you want us to need to either have safe towers along all cyno routes or to have escort fleets.
Okay.
Enjoy the massive increase in T2 prices.
While this might cause a marginal increase in t2 prices, I see no reason why it would be "massive." I think the only significant disruption in moongoo will involve lowsec moongoo operations that are so far from their alliances center of operations that they can't adequately protect a JF every few weeks.... and OMG, what a travesty that would be!!! I'm sure every competent alliance will adapt, and the incompetent will lose out (as it should be).
And yes... I expect you to have safe towers along your cyno routes, to have an escort fleet, or to take a risk.... I know, actually having risk when performing logistics in nullsec and lowsec might leave a bad taste in your mouth, but it's certainly not out-of-line!! This change does NOT leave jump logistics unfairly vulnerable. Safe cynoing practices can easily mitigate many of the risks to your ships...
Truth be told, it's the increased risks to Black Frog Operations that bother me the most. I do not want to undermine their operations to the point they go out of business.... and wonder if they feel like they could still operate with these new changes! I'm sure this would eliminate their operations to/from certain nullsec areas where blue on blue hostility is common, but those alliances can reap what they sow..
|
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Test Alliance Please Ignore
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
The only safe way to cyno with this method would be to the edge of a POS, thus my statement that travel routes would thus need POS towers. POS towers cost money and maintenance (fuel).
I'm not exactly opposed to this idea. But I think you underestimate the effect it will have. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mordus Angels
347
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:So, you want us to need to either have safe towers along all cyno routes or to have escort fleets.
Okay.
Enjoy the massive increase in T2 prices.
Not for nothing, but if you are using ships valued up to several billion ISK, and putting expensive cargo into them...
Why do you find it so off putting to get an escort? Isn't the value of your effort worthy of support? |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
372
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Liliana Rahl wrote:The only safe way to cyno with this method would be to the edge of a POS, thus my statement that travel routes would thus need POS towers. POS towers cost money and maintenance (fuel).
I'm not exactly opposed to this idea. But I think you underestimate the effect it will have.
In my experience, even cyno'ing in at a POS's shields is NOT truly safe. In essense, this change would eliminate safe cyno travel!! Properly done, I think you could web-to-warp an incoming ship before it's ever in significant risk, but generally cyno logistics moves from a trivially safe task (which it is now) to something more vulnerable.
I think this is a signficant change, and it will have a significant effect on logistics. However, I don't think the effect will manifest itself in "massively" increased t2 prices. I think the greatest difficulties will manifest around lowsec and NPC nullsec logistics points. Unfortunately, the people hurt the most will probably be small to medium sized alliances that can't bring new ships into a system becuase an enemy pressense is blockading their logisics... Truthfully though, I think this should be a valid tactic! |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
374
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 03:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
I see a lot of people have read this, but don't see a lot of replies.... I'm beginning to suspect this is one of those ideas that isn't broken or flawed, but rather something that people don't want to rally behind because it painful. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
240
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 04:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
because you want to kill jump freighters easier... no thanks.
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
Like I Give A F--K
1357
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:because you want to kill jump freighters easier... no thanks.
Remind me, in a ~pure PvP~ sand box MMO, why do we need invulnerable logistics chains?
As for this idea, it isn't bad but it needs some work. As an above poster pointed out it will probably just result in POSes being set up along the route. Or, more likely IMHO, people just won't cyno in unless a system is more or less empty.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
241
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 05:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:because you want to kill jump freighters easier... no thanks. Remind me, in a ~pure PvP~ sand box MMO, why do we need invulnerable logistics chains? As for this idea, it isn't bad but it needs some work. As an above poster pointed out it will probably just result in POSes being set up along the route. Or, more likely IMHO, people just won't cyno in unless a system is more or less empty.
they aren't invulnerable.
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
|
|
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
Like I Give A F--K
1357
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 06:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:
they aren't invulnerable.
Then enlighten me, how do you kill JFs?
Excluding Garmon's trick with webs, which was deemed an exploit and patched in <24 hours.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
374
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 13:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:
they aren't invulnerable.
Then enlighten me, how do you kill JFs? Excluding Garmon's trick with webs, which was deemed an exploit and patched in <24 hours.
I only know of one realistic method to gank a JF. You camp a cyno generator at a POS with a covops or recon. If a JF comes through, you decloak, tackle them, and light a cyno to bring in a supercap or three. The supercaps kill the JF and can then warp away from the typically well defended POS.
You usually lose the tackling cyno ship, but sometimes you can save a recon...
Outside of the above method, JF's are ONLY killed due to poor cyno locations or bad JF piloting.
Note: While this sucks for the JF pilot, if a couple of supercap pilots become predictable, they easily become a target... |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
Like I Give A F--K
1358
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:
they aren't invulnerable.
Then enlighten me, how do you kill JFs? Excluding Garmon's trick with webs, which was deemed an exploit and patched in <24 hours. I only know of one realistic method to gank a JF. You camp a cyno generator at a POS with a covops or recon. If a JF comes through, you decloak, tackle them, and light a cyno to bring in a supercap or three. The supercaps kill the JF and can then warp away from the typically well defended POS. You usually lose the tackling cyno ship, but sometimes you can save a recon... Outside of the above method, JF's are ONLY killed due to poor cyno locations or bad JF piloting. Note: While this sucks for the JF pilot, if a couple of supercap pilots become predictable, they easily become a target...
Heh, I honestly never realised people were stupid enough to use cyno generators without scouting/checking in their Intel channel. That's pretty funny.
But yeah, jumping in supers unsupported on top of a hostile POS, right next to a hostile cyno generator isn't something I'd do often. Sounds like a good way to lose supers.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Jiska Ensa
Unour Heavy Industries
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
safe spot + webs. You'll still never catch capitals. Deal with it. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate
Sailors of the Sacred Spice
349
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 14:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nonhighsec markets don't need another nerf just so you can pad your kb.
Standings Improvement Service
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
Like I Give A F--K
1358
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Nonhighsec markets don't need another nerf just so you can pad your kb.
Why do people always assume this is about kb padding? And who cares about non-high sec markets when most people buy all their stuff in Jita and JF it up?
I might occasionally buy a single module in syndicate, but a ship or full fitting? Why, when I can just buy 10 ships at a time on my Jita alt and jump it down inside of an hour? Even before I had a personal JF I just used black frog, as most of my friends still do if im not available.
I'll admit null sec industry needs a revamp before JF logistics takes a hit, but by the looks of it null industry is going to feature heavily in the next expansion. So now would seem a good time for CCP to look at removing those ridiculous logistics chains.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
forestwho
Foonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
its funny that the ppl that want to kill jf's are not the ones usualy living in 0.0. try doing logistics for an active corp that is in a alliance that is in war. Its a ***** to do and rly time consuming.... You might think its easy but try living in area's futher away that 1 - 2 jumps from the nearest high sec. Try living in esoteria for example.... you need to move stuff from jita to nearest jump off point (30 odd jumps), than 4 -5 cyno's..... not all in blue space...
you just want to have easy ganks for your personal griefing fun, try being a logistic operator and you talk other ways... |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
Like I Give A F--K
1358
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
forestwho wrote:its funny that the ppl that want to kill jf's are not the ones usualy living in 0.0. try doing logistics for an active corp that is in a alliance that is in war. Its a ***** to do and rly time consuming.... You might think its easy but try living in area's futher away that 1 - 2 jumps from the nearest high sec. Try living in esoteria for example.... you need to move stuff from jita to nearest jump off point (30 odd jumps), than 4 -5 cyno's..... not all in blue space...
you just want to have easy ganks for your personal griefing fun, try being a logistic operator and you talk other ways...
I've lived in syndicate, detorid, querious and various low sec regions all in alliances that are at war. I also currently own a jump freighter, and I am telling you that JF logistics are easy.
The changes proposed in my own thread would not provide me with any extra kills either, since whilst I do currently live in low sec I fight solo and do not fight on gate.
While I will admit JF logistics, if changed, need to be altered in conjunction with the future plans for null sec industry revamps I do believe that they need to be altered. I would also like to see them re-purposed rather than have cyno mechanics altered, but either way it is a step in the right direction and worthy of discussion.
What surprises me is that I often see many of the same people who cry "Eve is dangerous, don't un-dock unless you're willing to lose your ship" support the idea of an invulnerable non-combat ship class.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
374
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
forestwho wrote:its funny that the ppl that want to kill jf's are not the ones usualy living in 0.0. try doing logistics for an active corp that is in a alliance that is in war. Its a ***** to do and rly time consuming.... You might think its easy but try living in area's futher away that 1 - 2 jumps from the nearest high sec. Try living in esoteria for example.... you need to move stuff from jita to nearest jump off point (30 odd jumps), than 4 -5 cyno's..... not all in blue space...
you just want to have easy ganks for your personal griefing fun, try being a logistic operator and you talk other ways...
I've lived in nullsec for the last several years... Both in Highsec border regions like curse, provi, and syndicate, as well as deeper nullsec regions like Venal. I understand that logistics are a PITA, are underappreciated, and can easily suck the desire to play from you!!! I fully admit this makes logistics more dangerous... but it should be more dangerous.
This isn't about killboard padding.... this is about balancing the risks of travel!!!!
Let's review the risks of cyno travel:
a.) You undock and wait out a 10 seconds session change timer while completely invulnerable (even to bumping). If you are bubbled, you can safely dock.
b.) After the session change timer expires, you can right click on your ship and cyno directly to another location while still completely untargetable because of the undock invulnerability.
c.) Assuming your destination is a station, which 99% of the time it is, you cyno into dock range, and have to survive a whole 10 second session change timer before you can dock. With 300k EHP and eyes on grid before you cyno in, pragmatically, there is NO RISK.
Let's be frank, how is riskless travel good for the game???????? Why should we have riskless travel in nullsec and lowsec... it makes NO SENSE...
Someone already mentioned that people can cyno in at a safe spot, and web-to-warp a ship long before a hostile lands on grid. And that is totally acceptable.... because doing that actually includes at least a little bit of risk...
Web to warp is fast, but generally not instantaneous, nor invulnerable to traps!!!
If you reuse a "safe" spot, people can be lying in wait... you cyno in, they can decloak and tackle before you get into warp.
If you typically warp directly to a station, people can use a dictor bubble up to pull your ship away from a station and gank it.
It also limits cyno chaining, where ships can go rapidly back and forth between two destinations, as they can no longer instantly dock to cap up between cyno's. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
374
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'd like to point out, this is aimed at ALL CYNO TRAFFIC...
It will alter cyno usage of not just JF's, but Carriers, Rorquals, and even Dreads too!!! |
|
|
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
246
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 05:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:
they aren't invulnerable.
Then enlighten me, how do you kill JFs? Excluding Garmon's trick with webs, which was deemed an exploit and patched in <24 hours.
From your age and history I'm thinking you have probably never flown a JF. I'm not going to tell you how to kill me.. sorry. but I will say that there is no such thing as insta-dock from a cyno at the station. There is always a delay and freighters of all flavors are slow as snails. Changing cynos just so some people have an easier time ganking freighters is a dumb idea.
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
178
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 09:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
This is actually an excellent idea.
If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 09:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
This is actually a terrible idea. |
Hyacinthine
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet
Yulai Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Just thinking in terms of skirmishes between neighboring sovereignty holders, I would be okay with this change, but it's a bit... lazy? Go all the way!
No cynos on grid with stations or gates, or don't bother. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
389
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hyacinthine wrote:Just thinking in terms of skirmishes between neighboring sovereignty holders, I would be okay with this change, but it's a bit... lazy? Go all the way!
No cynos on grid with stations or gates, or don't bother.
If you can't cyno no grid with a gate or station, then you can't hotdrop people at a station or gate.... While I think hotdrop mechanics need tweaking, I don't support the complete removal of hotdrops from the two most common places of combat.
Let people light the cyno anywhere, but if the cyno is too close to the station or gate, then the cyno'ing in ships will appear 5-10 km's beyond the station's dock perimeter. This means that hotdropped ships are NOT in docking range, but they are still close enough to engage a target (like a noob that aggressed with their carrier on a station). This creates a nice additional risk to hotdropping people on a station, without removing hotdrops...
|
forestwho
Foonfleet Investment Banking
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
The luxury of living in 0.0 is that everything needs to be shipped down, and cost more expensise because of it. Nerfing JF or cyno travel is actuly just making it more expensive and more unused. The real problem behind this issue is getting viable industry in 0.0. JF are merly a indicator that something is wrong in the area of supply in 0.0. Ether getting the mods / ships down or local production. I allready know the answere... buff 0.0 station benifits so it acts as a stimulans to do industry. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mordus Angels
353
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 16:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
My own two cents.
Many people are familiar with the concept of a travel fit. It uses a setup that only makes a sense if your priority is to get through a hazardous area intact.
It normally requires a meaningful sacrifice to PvP ability, in that the pilot is attempting to avoid or survive anticipated ambushes or encounters.
There are some ships which force this fit. They cannot shoot back, and their entire design centers around something not intended to include direct combat.
I do not believe any ship in EVE should be invulnerable. I do believe every ship in EVE needs to relate to combat realistically.
It either needs to be so tough it can weather it, or so hard to catch it can avoid it.
(The transport ships category exemplify this with one ship for each approach)
A freighter or JF that gets popped should reflect a failure on the pilot to plan properly, or simply screw up piloting.
The intention is to have interesting fights. Both sides shooting.
A clever strategy that beats a fleet without a single return shot makes for a great story, but lousy gameplay. |
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |