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Using drones for defense while mining?

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Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.01.06 16:54:00 - [1] The drone guides I've read to date haven't addressed the procedures & tactics appropriate for the following circumstance: A lone mining barge accompanied by a hauler has some NPC belt rats attack the hauler. Both barge and hauler are fleeted. The barge has 5 T1 Hobbies deployed for protection. Could those "in the know" please advise me on the appropriate drone guides so that I can better understand the appropriate procedures & tactics to protect the hauler? No need for you to reinvent the wheel for me! I've no doubt the guide(s) is out there... just a nudge in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Bucky O'Hair Minmatar Crimson Light Horse Brigade	Posted - 2010.01.06 16:59:00 - [2] Right click on drone interface select guard (pick who you want guarded) Off they go to guard said member. You CAN set them to aggresive, but I wouldn't do that in high sec, it might lead to some not so fun results. Have fun Bucky O'Hair "If it flys it dies!"
Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.01.06 17:05:00 - [3] Thanks Bucky! Two follow-up questions for you.... Can you please explain the differences between 'guard' and 'assist'? How do the drones react in those circumstances if the settings are passive or active? Many thanks for the quick reply.
Bucky O'Hair Minmatar Crimson Light Horse Brigade	Posted - 2010.01.06 17:44:00 - [4] Glad to help, Here is a good drone guide. Everything You wanted to know about drones, but didn't know you wanted to know. But I pulled out the answer to your follow up questions. "Drones can be set to 'Guard' or 'Assist' a gang member. This cannot be used to have your drones attack yourself. The guard option lets the drones act as if they are launched by the guarded person. They will put everything that aggroes the guarded person on their aggro list. When assisting a gang member they follow the aggrolist of the assisted person." Bucky O'Hair "If it flys it dies!"
Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.01.06 18:16:00 - [5] Many thanks Bucky. This was exactly the type of info I was seeking.... bang on! Many thanks, once again, for the quick reply. Best wishes. H
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.06 18:22:00 - [6] Or put a cloaking device and tractorbeam on the hauler, and position the hauler 2+ km away so it can cloak. Use drones to defend miner (aggressive mode). Hauler can uncloak when coast is clear and tractor a jetcan.
Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.01.06 18:59:00 - [7] Thanks Tau.... personally, I *love* this I appreciate the help in thinking outside of the box. I'll have to check with the pilot who was flying the hauler to see if he has the skills for this. Perhaps you might know, or have an opinion -- In each instance of NPC rat 'visitations', the rats went for the hauler every time; is that typical rat behavior (barge or hauler & rats will target hauler first)? 3-of-3 instances this was the rat behavior. Many thanks.
Bucky O'Hair Minmatar Crimson Light Horse Brigade	Posted - 2010.01.06 19:04:00 - [8] Not sure on the attacking the hauler first, was he perhaps the closest target all three times? I have never paid enough attention to who the rats go after first. Fly Deadly Bucky O'Hair "If it flys it dies!"
Mal Lokrano Gallente Delve Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.06 19:04:00 - [9] Cloaks are relatively easy to train for so it is not hard at all to do it. ____________________________________________ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2010.01.06 19:06:00 - [10] Edited by: Mendolus on 06/01/2010 19:06:32 Rule of thumb on drones: 1) Release drones from bay when NPC rats show up 2) Pop NPC rats 3) Pop NPC wrecks 4) Return drones to bay 5) Never leave combat drones idle in space Why? They will passively fire regardless of drone behavior settings (as long as they are idle or in idle orbit) on any player flagged to you as long as that person is within 5-10km of your drones. Which means, you die if a clever and malicious player shows up. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}

Mendolus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2010.01.06 19:11:00 - [11] Edited by: Mendolus on 06/01/2010 19:12:01 Originally by: Bucky O'Hair Not sure on the attacking the hauler first, was he perhaps the closest target all three times? I have never paid enough attention to who the rats go after first. Fly Deadly It seems most NPC rats in missions at least, tend to target based on two target tables, either 1) Target initial aggressor first, as in, waves of rats are chained to the previous target table, or whoever spawned the initial table. 2) Target weakest ship (by ship hull, by structure, or sometimes by fit?) I have seen rats in unlinked spawns target my Typhoon again and again, even when there were TWO battleships in the mission pocket, but one had a full tank, and mine did not. It could have been as easy as I had less armor points than the other battleship did, but it could have been that the battleship had two reppers active, and I had one. It's hard to tell, cuz CCP will never let on to the actual rules. As far as belt rats go, if you ask me, it's PURELY random, at all times. I've seen one rat target the hauler, while the other two target the Hulk, etc. etc. in a myriad of different combinations. So I do not believe there are any rules to frigate rats at belts. I know there are rules for cruiser and battleship rats at belts, however. It seems to follow the second rule listed above at belts in 0.0 space. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.01.06 20:42:00 - [12] Why I love these forums... many thanks to all for the information, and for taking the time to reply. I'm getting information on multiple items of interest to me. So, lets see if I've learned anything {or if I need a better intel implant } -- A cloaked hauler that hasn't done anything to "break" the cloaking isn't visible to the rats. -- If the hauler has sufficient distance from the barge, that the rats attacking the barge don't come too close to the hauler, the hauler will remain cloaked. -- The hauler can still do its job, from a distance, by using a tractor and then cloaking again. -- It may be an open question how NPC rats might prioritize target selection in the scenario at the start of this thread. -- Even if set on Passive, combat drones will "react" if another player were to loot/salvage a wreck from a previous rat 'visitation' within a specific range from the barge. -- To 'direct' rats AWAY from an uncloaked hauler, the barge should draw the rat aggro and only THEN uncork the drones and turn 'em loose. <ahem> So, do I need a better implant? If I may, two follow-up questions: Assume I don't care about any rat wrecks. Does tagging those wrecks as available to all eliminate the problem of Passive drones reacting tp another player looting/salvaging those wrecks? Are the any other procedures or tactics that need consideration if the belt in question is either (1) a "regular" system belt or, (2) a belt found within a mission deadspace? Many, many thanks to all who have replied. Your assistance and patience is appreciated greatly.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.06 20:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Hallan De'estus -- A cloaked hauler that hasn't done anything to "break" the cloaking isn't visible to the rats. -- If the hauler has sufficient distance from the barge, that the rats attacking the barge don't come too close to the hauler, the hauler will remain cloaked. -- The hauler can still do its job, from a distance, by using a tractor and then cloaking again. -- It may be an open question how NPC rats might prioritize target selection in the scenario at the start of this thread. Once rats target something, they don't change targets. If they break the hauler's cloak while attacking the miner, they will still not attack the hauler. The Hauler can simply move and recloak, or wait for the rats to be destroyed and recloak. Quote: -- Even if set on Passive, combat drones will "react" if another player were to loot/salvage a wreck from a previous rat 'visitation' within a specific range from the barge. Not true. Passive drones do nothing no matter what. Aggressive drones will never attack based on theft (if they do it is considered an exploit). Quote: -- To 'direct' rats AWAY from an uncloaked hauler, the barge should draw the rat aggro and only THEN uncork the drones and turn 'em loose. See above. Quote: Assume I don't care about any rat wrecks. Does tagging those wrecks as available to all eliminate the problem of Passive drones reacting tp another player looting/salvaging those wrecks? See above. Quote: Are the any other procedures or tactics that need consideration if the belt in question is either (1) a "regular" system belt or, (2) a belt found within a mission deadspace? Beware there are a lot of structures in missions that can make it hard to cloak (an "All" overview tab with all objects enabled is handy for spotting these).
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2010.01.06 21:20:00 - [14] Edited by: Mendolus on 06/01/2010 21:21:42 Originally by: Tau Cabalander Quote: -- Even if set on Passive, combat drones will "react" if another player were to loot/salvage a wreck from a previous rat 'visitation' within a specific range from the barge. Not true. Passive drones do nothing no matter what. Aggressive drones will never attack based on theft (if they do it is considered an exploit). Since what game patch? This has been a given since I started and I have never heard hide nor hair otherwise for two years. Drones have a subset of NPC AI which is how they are able to prioritize aggressive targets in missions by popping EWAR frigates and stasis towers first, and NPC AI behaves much in this way by passively firing on player drones that come within 5-10km even when their aggression tables are not activated, where are the patch notes that say they changed this? {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.06 22:11:00 - [15] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/01/2010 22:15:36 If someone steals from your jetcan, they will blink red. You then have the OPTION of attacking them. Drones do NOT take that decision away from you. You must send your drones to attack. Getting flagged for stealing is not treated the same as an aggression flag. It has been this way since I started EVE, 2 weeks before Apocrypha. There was an exploit where getting flagged at the instant the rat died would cause an aggression flag, and the drones would attack. It requires perfect timing so it was very rare, and the last reports I read indicated it that it had probably been patched. I've never had my drones attack a thief, and they are always set on aggressive.
Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.01.06 22:49:00 - [16] Interesting points that probably have to be resolved with some in-game testing! You'll pardon me if I'm not the one to test this Lets assume I will be conservative pending some definitive results from some testing & I want to minimize inadvertent player aggro issues. Assume we have the barge/hauler scenario again. The hauler is not cloaked. -- Rats appear some 30K+ away and begin moving towards the barge/hauler. -- Barge and hauler have several kilometers between each other (hauler has tractor). -- Barge and hauler are equidistant from the incoming rats. -- Drones are in the drone bay. If the barge were to target one of the incoming rats is it reasonable to expect that the barge would draw all rat aggro? If so, I assume that once the barge has full aggro this would be the time to turn loose the drones? Many thanks -- again -- for your time! I am learning a lot and never expected to generate such a spirited & technical discussion.
Parthun Mire	Posted - 2010.01.07 02:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Tau Cabalander It has been this way since I started EVE, 2 weeks before Apocrypha. I started a month after Trinity shrug It's just like the can flip bandwidth exploit. I'd rather continue knowing I'm safe than find out the hard way that the exploit was patched but still works a la the warp cloak trick. And in this case it would not be an advantage but a disadvantage. What's that saying, something about being safe and sorry, or... wait... no, no that's not it... ah well
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2010.01.07 02:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Parthun Mire ... Oh hey useless trade alt, that's me ^ Work PC 1 : Home PC 0 {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.07 02:45:00 - [19] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 07/01/2010 02:50:47 Originally by: Parthun Mire I started a month after Trinity shrug I was not trying to impress, rather I was simply responding to the question of how long it has been this way. My experience isn't that long, so it might have been different before I started. Heck, it might be different now, since I've not jetcan mined since my very early months in EVE. Originally by: Parthun Mire than find out the hard way that the exploit was patched but still works a la the warp cloak trick. Actually if you could explain the warp-cloak trick to me, as I've not been able to do it with a non-Covert cloak since it was last patched.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.07 03:09:00 - [20] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 07/01/2010 03:13:15 Originally by: Hallan De'estus Interesting points that probably have to be resolved with some in-game testing! You'll pardon me if I'm not the one to test this I really should have done this on the test server, but... I just tested this in Jita (0.9 security) at the planet I warp-in. I purchased a Caldari Bantam mining frigate, a Hornet I light scout drone, and one piece of Veldspar Ore. I placed a bookmark in the can so it wouldn't poof, along with the Veldspar. I then set the drone aggressive, launched it, and set it aggressive again just to be sure. My Jita trade alt then stole the Veldspar. My alt went RED to me, but not blinking red, and was marked as an outlaw (red skull), and my drone ignored him.

Sandeep	Posted - 2010.01.07 08:38:00 - [21] Edited by: Sandeep on 07/01/2010 08:39:02 Originally by: Tau Cabalander I just tested this in Jita (0.9 security) at the Jita-I warp-in. (snip) My alt went RED to me, but not blinking red .. (snip) .. and my drone ignored him Are you in NPC corp? Maybe you want to test the other way around. When someone steal from you, he is either flagged to your corp (if you are in a player corp) or yourself (if you are in NPC corp). This may have slight distinctions in aggro mechanics. Further test: Also, when rats show up, order your drones to attack them while your blinking red thief hangs around. What is this time flux thing?
Achura Morachu	Posted - 2010.01.07 11:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Sandeep Edited by: Sandeep on 07/01/2010 08:39:02 Are you in NPC corp? Maybe you want to test the other way around. When someone steal from you, he is either flagged to your corp (if you are in a player corp) or yourself (if you are in NPC corp). This may have slight distinctions in aggro mechanics. Further test: Also, when rats show up, order your drones to attack them while your blinking red thief hangs around. It would be so much easier if drones set to aggressive would have the decency to shoot at me... But they don't. You do have to set them on the can flipper manually. Also, there hasn't been any blinking for quite some time; people you can shoot at, but who can't shoot at you (legally, anyways) have a solid red background.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2010.01.07 14:13:00 - [23] Edited by: Mendolus on 07/01/2010 14:14:05 Originally by: Achura Morachu Originally by: Sandeep Edited by: Sandeep on 07/01/2010 08:39:02 Are you in NPC corp? Maybe you want to test the other way around. When someone steal from you, he is either flagged to your corp (if you are in a player corp) or yourself (if you are in NPC corp). This may have slight distinctions in aggro mechanics. Further test: Also, when rats show up, order your drones to attack them while your blinking red thief hangs around. It would be so much easier if drones set to aggressive would have the decency to shoot at me... But they don't. You do have to set them on the can flipper manually. Also, there hasn't been any blinking for quite some time; people you can shoot at, but who can't shoot at you (legally, anyways) have a solid red background. I always change it back to blinking because of the overview glitch that makes player's backgrounds red. I would rather not chance thinking it is just an overview glitch when I may have inadvertently flagged myself instead, and am now losing my ship. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.01.07 17:08:00 - [24] Many thanks to all the contributors! I've learned a great deal. In fact, I've learned far more about a number of topics than I could have expected. Special thanks to Tau for taking the time for the field experiment. Best wishes to all.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.07 22:07:00 - [25] Originally by: Sandeep Originally by: Tau Cabalander I just tested this in Jita (0.9 security) at the Jita-I warp-in. (snip) My alt went RED to me, but not blinking red .. (snip) .. and my drone ignored him Are you in NPC corp? Maybe you want to test the other way around. When someone steal from you, he is either flagged to your corp (if you are in a player corp) or yourself (if you are in NPC corp). This may have slight distinctions in aggro mechanics. Further test: Also, when rats show up, order your drones to attack them while your blinking red thief hangs around. I am in a player corp. Thief alt was in NPC corp. I can't try the other way round since my alt doesn't have drone skills.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2010.01.08 00:24:00 - [26] As to who the rats attack, it seems it is the weakest ship that comes within their targeting zone. Thus if the drones come in from one way - they may not attack a weaker ship that is on the far side of a ship they become entangled with first. Rats will not to my knowledge re-target. The thing is - most industrials are much tougher ships that a mining barge, especially if someone's put a real tank on them. A Hulk might have a better tank than an Industrial but not a Covetor or a Retriever. If you have your drone skills up - and are paying attention - then you've not that much to fear from rats in your miner. You can blow them up before they seriously hurt you, even if there are several. The only time I've ever had any real trouble, was once down in .6 space where one of my Covetors got attacked by a couple of Diviners (Punishers) while I was fooling with another acount and didn't noticed. This is one of the prices you pay for trying to manage multiple accounts ... I got killed in Planetside all the time because of that ... shrug But anyway ... I realized I was going to pop in time and warped out with my Covetor down to about 30% structure ... Then I popped the rats with another of my miners drones and went on with what I was doing. The thing is - I had already popped any number of rats that night and added their bounties and salvage to my take for the evening. If you are paying attention and pick them up before they do to much damage ... then you are fine. One thing you want to do here - is have at least two Overview settings - one set to essentially Default Mining that has all the rocks on it - and the other to a Standard view with NO rocks. That way - as long as you are paying attention - you'll see either the rats or another player come into your field as soon as they get there. For my Industrial Haulers that are supporting a mining op - I have a Tractor Beam and a Salvager. They not only tractor jet cans to them - they tractor wrecks from their corpmates as well. And - OBTW - that Covetor that almost popped - was in Mission Space - but got hit by some belt rats that came by to visit. So, don't think that just because you've killed all the mission rats that you are through worrying about them. If you are in a .8 space or below - every now and again, you just might get a visit from some of the rats you would normally see in that systems belts. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools


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