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Jester777
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Posted - 2010.01.08 05:20:00 -
[1]
I'd like to see a "Salvager Drone" be implimented into the available Drone selection. Let me paint a picture...
...you're completely solo (no secondary characters with u; no gang/fleet) mining in some asteroid field, and a Rat is inc. you launch yer Hobgoblin and it destroys the Rat some 18km away. Are you gonna sack the salvage, or are u going to lumber yer mining ship over to the wreck and use your Salvager to pick apart the wreck?
Answer: send the Salvager Drone! (Skill: Drone + Skill Salvager Drone)
If a Mining Drone can hold a mining laser and has the cargo area for ore, then a Salvager Drone would have room for Salvager Fitting for what can be reclaimed from wrecks.
...it's just a thought
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EdvensoR
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Posted - 2010.01.08 07:06:00 -
[2]
supported
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Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Cult of War
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Posted - 2010.01.08 09:02:00 -
[3]
This has been mentioned before, and I believe CCP said there were issues with the drone's cargohold capacity.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.01.08 09:12:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Seth Ruin
This has been mentioned before, and I believe CCP said there were issues with the drone's cargohold capacity.
Yep, the idea is as old as salvaging and has wide support, but I couldn't remember the reason it wasn't implemented. The actual skill for salvage drone operation even exists, but you can't get it anymore. The idea is good though, so thumbs up just in case CCP figures a way to do it.
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Luminus Mallus
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Posted - 2010.01.08 13:29:00 -
[5]
A good idea that would allow more specialization and more game variety, which in turn equals fun.
Salvaging is tedious, having your drones help you would make it a bit more fun.
Thumbs up.
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Harkwyth Mist
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.01.08 17:22:00 -
[6]
Theres already a template ingame for it, all that changes is the drones target, from Asteroid to Wreck.
The only salvage that takes up any significant space is Metal Scraps, just about everything else has a tiny footprint per unit:m3
the only downside is 'if' ccp relent and implement salvage drones, some players will start whining they dont loot the wrecks aswell ....
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Tuvar Hiede
Snuggle Muffins
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Posted - 2010.01.08 23:51:00 -
[7]
Then y not make salvage drones into a alternative to tractor beams. Let's them drag wrecks to you for loot and salvage? Its a reasonable idea imo.
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steave435
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.09 03:57:00 -
[8]
Quote:
The only salvage that takes up any significant space is Metal Scraps, just about everything else has a tiny footprint per unit:m3
I don't think the issue would be with actual m3 cargo, but rather with the type. If you're sending a mining drone to an asteroid, nothing needs to be stored in cargo. All you need to do is start a timer as soon as the drone reach the asteroid, and when that timer runs out, the drone returns and x amount of the appropriate ore type is created. If you send a salvage drone to a wreck, it needs to actually test if it's successfull instead of just having a timer, and if it is, it need to remove the wreck and memorize what specific salvage items and in what amount were retrieved without actually adding it to a real cargo bay until it reach your ship again. The "cargo bay" on mining drones is probably not a real cargo bay, but rather just a value used to inform you about how long it will take for your drone to complete its timer so that it can return to your ship and create the item when it gets there.
However, if CCP can find a way to solve it, support.
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Don Pellegrino
Helljumpers
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.01.09 05:12:00 -
[9]
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AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
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Posted - 2010.01.09 06:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 09/01/2010 06:25:56
For a drone to carry stuff, it needs to become a database entry that can have dependent entries;
That is to say, something similar to this
Player (Independent Parent Entity)
ل- Rupture (Container)
لل- Cargohold (Container Sublevel)
للل- Tritanium 1x
للل- Civilian Damage Control 1x
لللل- Standard Secure Container (Container Sub-Sublevel)
لللل- EMP M 3,440x
لللل- Bloodclaw Light Missile 1,785
لل- Salvager Drone (Container, Dependent Child Entity, hooked to AI controller interface)
للل- Cargohold (Container sublevel)
لللل- Armor Plates 13x
لللل- Alloyed Tritanium Bar 8x
لللل- Corpse Female (hey, drones get lonely too!)
Now, when the drone gets scooped, it would have to perform an asset trade with the player's ship in space first, to get rid of "its" assets; what's in its cargohold doesn't belong to you on a database level until it's in your cargo. It can't be scooped until the asset trade has been completed, because that would place a dependent, artificially controlled entity within a user controlled entity, with its own dependency tree. Why this is bad is because, like with putting a hyperactive child in a car, the child is going to be asking 'are we there yet' before you've even turned on the engine; a drone will be constantly checking to see if it has something to do with its cargo or if there's any of its AI routines to perform, even while in your drone bay.
So, upon scooping, it would not only need to be emptied (before being scooped to your cargo, causing an extra database transfer of dependency/container trees), but its AI would need to be unhooked to prevent it from going berserk in your drone-bay. When launched, an entire subset of AI controllers would need to be reenabled for the drone in addition to the current, comparatively basic set of controllers in place already just for it to float around and ignore your commands.
When you launch drones, there's a brief spike before they appear; this is them being changed from a standard database entry to an AI controlled, dependent child object.
When you scoop drones, there is a brief spike as their AI gets killed and they are turned back into a container object.
When you launch fighters, their standard Drone AI is loaded in addition to their subset of AI that controls whether they follow something in warp or not.
These kinds of issues are the same reason you can't have players 'docking' with carriers, motherships or titans right now; because you'd essentially be placing a player inside another player.
Now, I'm no database engineer nor programmer, so I'm trying to explain this in laymens terms based on what I understand of databases; that said I could be entirely wrong, but as far as I'm aware there are good (and similar) reasons why this sort of thing isn't being done already.
With reference to mining drones; I'm thinking that how they work is, after their cycle time, they essentially remove a portion of the ID:quantity from an asteroid and are assigned a temporary ID:quantity tag, which, when they get to your ship, causes them to spawn an invisible/imaginary container that your ship automatically retrieves the ore from; if your cargo is full, the container is spawned, allowing the drone to dump the ore, and then despawns immediately. This couldn't work for salvage as, for salvage to exist, it needs to be removed from a very real database-side container (the wreck), placed into a very real container for the drone, then placed into one of these invisible containers to be moved to your ship.
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Ogogov
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Posted - 2010.01.09 17:21:00 -
[11]
have salvage drones simply recycle the wrecks into cargo containers whislt in space? that way you eliminate the problem of having a transfer on dock - all the drones would do would be to harvest a wreckage field so the player would come along and scoop the leftover containers up with a tractor beam?
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2010.01.09 21:17:00 -
[12]
If not a salvager drone, at least a tractor drone would be nice.
For tractor drone I mean a drone that reach a distant wreck (or jetcan), lock it with a tractor beam and the return to your ship with it in tow.
Not as useful as an actual salvage drone, it will still be a nice addition to the utility drones.
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AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
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Posted - 2010.01.09 21:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ogogov
have salvage drones simply recycle the wrecks into cargo containers whislt in space? that way you eliminate the problem of having a transfer on dock - all the drones would do would be to harvest a wreckage field so the player would come along and scoop the leftover containers up with a tractor beam?
And completely remove all the work ninjas have to do to get at salvage, as the wrecks now come pre-salvaged for them and they need to nothing but loot them?
Hell yeah I completely support THAT idea!
This wouldn't at all please those that are wanting to use drones to clean up salvage for them where they are ignoring loot by default, though, which I think accounts for the majority of the people wanting something like this rather than the minority.
They want their salvage brought to them on a silver platter, not to have to work for it.
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Voddick
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Posted - 2010.01.10 00:01:00 -
[14]
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Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.01.10 00:30:00 -
[15]
So you're asking for a remote salvaging device with a range of possibly over 120km? That's ludicrous...especially considering that the salvager takes a high slot. This would make many ships entirely too powerful (Drake with missiles for damage and salvage drones so it doesn't even have to move).
I'm sorry, but they were right to remove salvager drones from the equation completely. The salvager is limited in that it requires a high slot, a good amount of CPU, and only has a 5km range. Adding drones to that task would mean almost nobody would equip the actual salvagers.
Sorry, I can't support this.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.10 00:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bunyip
So you're asking for a remote salvaging device with a range of possibly over 120km? That's ludicrous...especially considering that the salvager takes a high slot. This would make many ships entirely too powerful (Drake with missiles for damage and salvage drones so it doesn't even have to move).
I'm sorry, but they were right to remove salvager drones from the equation completely. The salvager is limited in that it requires a high slot, a good amount of CPU, and only has a 5km range. Adding drones to that task would mean almost nobody would equip the actual salvagers.
Sorry, I can't support this.
Go to the wreck at 120 km at MDW speed, 5.000 m/s, return at loaded speed, 200 m/s. Total 624 seconds.
Really overpowered.
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Ogogov
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Posted - 2010.01.10 01:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
If not a salvager drone, at least a tractor drone would be nice.
For tractor drone I mean a drone that reach a distant wreck (or jetcan), lock it with a tractor beam and the return to your ship with it in tow.
Not as useful as an actual salvage drone, it will still be a nice addition to the utility drones.
I was thinking of a technical solution to the problem, not CCP's deliberate encouragement of asshattery as a profession.
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Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.01.10 01:28:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Go to the wreck at 120 km at MDW speed, 5.000 m/s, return at loaded speed, 200 m/s. Total 624 seconds.
Really overpowered.
Compared to going to the wreck at 240 m/s until you get within 5km? Yes. And that was just an extreme example, compared to, lets say 20km away. Why would anybody use a TB and Salvager when one of these drones do both jobs and faster (TB only moves at 500 m/s).
And by the way, it's MicroWarp Drive (MWD), not MDW.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.10 04:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Bunyip
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Go to the wreck at 120 km at MDW speed, 5.000 m/s, return at loaded speed, 200 m/s. Total 624 seconds.
Really overpowered.
Compared to going to the wreck at 240 m/s until you get within 5km? Yes. And that was just an extreme example, compared to, lets say 20km away. Why would anybody use a TB and Salvager when one of these drones do both jobs and faster (TB only moves at 500 m/s).
And by the way, it's MicroWarp Drive (MWD), not MDW.
The ship makes it there in 500 seconds, the drone takes 624(and of course, bookmarking, docking up, and getting a destroyer takes less than 200) The ship can take in a whole cluster of wrecks, the drones have to do each one individually. The ships can loot, the drones can only salvage. And in order to get up to 120km, you need to dedicate a minimum of three high slots to drone range extension, which is actually a fair bit harder to fit than a traditional salvage fit.
I don't believe that salvage drones are necessary, or particularly wise. I don't like turning a collectable into a commodity and messing up the people who are holding the books, either. But the arguments you raise really aren't very good ones.
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Rakivic
Pilots of Damnation
death from above..
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Posted - 2010.01.10 07:42:00 -
[20]
Alot of people seem to think thay would be to over powered due to range ect. Well there is a simple fix, that is to limit there range to say 50km (with max drone range sills) then have some kind of tech babble in the description for ex "Due to the installation of a salvage device, the control receiver had to be scaled back. Limiting this drones operational range when compared to other drone types" Or something along those lines.
Tho I do support topic and hope ccp can figure out a way for them to work.
You are not allowed to discuss forum moderation in signature. Applebabe |
Juwi Kotch
Fiat Iustitia
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Posted - 2010.01.10 12:54:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 10/01/2010 12:55:17
No, not because that this would be a bad idea (I myself am a drone user with nearly 10mil SP in Drones), but because I generally don't like features which supports and assist solo play (meaning playing without as less interaction with other Players as possible, with none at all the best). EVE is an MMORPG, or at least should be, not a solo PC-Game.
Support the Bounty Hunter Profession! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.10 13:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bunyip
Edited by: Bunyip on 10/01/2010 06:22:06
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Go to the wreck at 120 km at MDW speed, 5.000 m/s, return at loaded speed, 200 m/s. Total 624 seconds.
Really overpowered.
After recalculating the math, I realize that the drone wouldn't necessarily be fast. However, it would seem to have too few disadvantages compared to the high-slot Salvager. Unless there was a way to balance it so the Salvager isn't deprecated, I'm still against the idea.
Ok, I accept your position even if I don't totally agree, sorry for the heavy sarcasm in my reply.
The balance is strongly dependant on the drone size and chance of success.
I see them as a 10 m3 drones with a decent capacity. One of the problems will be the volume of the salvage. Several BS, even if the salvage really dropped has a small volume, have a potential maximum volume of salvage over 100 m3 and for the salvager to work the ship must have 100 or more m3 free.
For dedicated use it could be even possible to have 3 size of drones with different maximum cargo capacity: small for frigate/destroyer wrecks, medium for cruiser/BC, large for BS and above. Naturally that would require a way to identify the different wreck size without the need to memorize the name of all different NPC.
Honestly probably too much work for a small gain.
The option of a tractor drone as suggested above seem simpler (again with speed limitations when loaded).
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AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
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Posted - 2010.01.10 16:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Bunyip
Edited by: Bunyip on 10/01/2010 06:22:06
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Go to the wreck at 120 km at MDW speed, 5.000 m/s, return at loaded speed, 200 m/s. Total 624 seconds.
Really overpowered.
After recalculating the math, I realize that the drone wouldn't necessarily be fast. However, it would seem to have too few disadvantages compared to the high-slot Salvager. Unless there was a way to balance it so the Salvager isn't deprecated, I'm still against the idea.
Ok, I accept your position even if I don't totally agree, sorry for the heavy sarcasm in my reply.
The balance is strongly dependant on the drone size and chance of success.
I see them as a 10 m3 drones with a decent capacity. One of the problems will be the volume of the salvage. Several BS, even if the salvage really dropped has a small volume, have a potential maximum volume of salvage over 100 m3 and for the salvager to work the ship must have 100 or more m3 free.
For dedicated use it could be even possible to have 3 size of drones with different maximum cargo capacity: small for frigate/destroyer wrecks, medium for cruiser/BC, large for BS and above. Naturally that would require a way to identify the different wreck size without the need to memorize the name of all different NPC.
Honestly probably too much work for a small gain.
The option of a tractor drone as suggested above seem simpler (again with speed limitations when loaded).
This only applies to empire faction and 'mission generic' wrecks, it doesn't apply to 'normal' NPC wrecks, which don't ever drop scrap metal.
Salvage uses up 0.01m3/unit regardless of type.
You can send one drone to each wreck individually, and could technically have a tag-along alt in a vexor carrying DPS drones for when there's ships about and salvager drones for when there aren't, with nothing but drone link augmentors in its highs and a buffer+resists in its lows (with RR on the mission-runner's ship; he doesn't need to run his local tank while his alt is the one getting shot at, so cap-stability is between a non-issue and of little enough consequence that it's not valid in the argument).
Now if we instead look back to the guy that uses one account; he can warp on in afterwards (the way he would in his thrasher), in a Vexor that can still achieve ~1.75km/s with a ~6s agility using a MWD, allowing it to quickly and efficiently nip around, sending 5x salvager drones after wrecks further away while it deals with 5x wrecks closer to its own location (it even gets to lock all of those wrecks provided the pilot has trained Targeting lvl5 and multitasking a bit, and is using signal amplifier IIs in its lows).
The Vexor even has a 480m3 cargohold, allowing it to hold a fair chunk of the more-valuable loot. It just won't get to fit salvage tackle this way (destroyer can) or tractor things around (destroyer can, again), but then, you're already talking about using a drone that wouldn't benefit from salvage tackle, that would need its own skill to use and that will not loot for you.
So on the whole, a 'salvage drone' looks like nothing but a fluff-addition that will either be useless, overpowered or limited to the point of frustration for a large portion of the playerbase.
Demonstrate to me why this kind of addition is necessary. |
Jester777
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Posted - 2010.01.13 00:20:00 -
[24]
ty for all the responses everyone has been giving me to my post! I've seen several good ideas/point, yet I've also seen several bad ones.
First off: ALL drones are governed by the Drone Skill et; why would anyone think that a Salvager Drone wouldnt be governed by the same Skill Set?
For example: the 'Drones' Skill would naturally govern how many Salvager Drones would b able to be implimented; the same for any other kind of Drone.
The 'Drone Interfacing' Skill could have a patch on it increasing the percentage of sucessfully salvaging (since it has the percentages for mining and damage increase. (or make a "Drone Salvaging" Skill to specifically govern the chance to sucessfully salvage, as has been done for Mining Drones with the Mining Drone Operation Skill)
The Scout Drone Operation Skill governs the Range of that particular "class" of Drone. A similar skill can be created to govern the range of a Salvager Drone
The point is, throwing an idea out on how to make a Salvager Drone work isnt going to solve anything. there has to be some semblence of check-and-balance to the whole thing...
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Erika Bronz
Gallente
The Wyld Hunt
Saints Amongst Sinners
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Posted - 2010.01.13 04:46:00 -
[25]
Somebody wrote a lot of technical stuff about entitys and children in the backseat further up. What if salvager drones instead of having their own cargohold just jetison everything immediately? Then you can use tractor beam to get it into your cargo. Would the salvager drone still go "are we there yet"?
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2010.01.13 05:19:00 -
[26]
I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right....
But I recall a dev saying that they didn't want us to have salvage drones because salvaging should be something that you have to consciously think about doing and chose to do; and, they didn't want salvaging to be an automated task.
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Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Awesome Possum
Imperium Signal Corps
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Posted - 2010.01.13 05:22:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Awesome Possum on 13/01/2010 05:22:32
as a ninja salvager, I support the idea of a nano vexor/ishkur with full rack of salvager 2s and a flight of salvage drones.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Greygal
Sephray Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.13 09:49:00 -
[28]
Supported. I also like the idea of tractor drones :)
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Jester777
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Posted - 2010.01.14 03:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Aloriana Jacques
I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right....
But I recall a dev saying that they didn't want us to have salvage drones because salvaging should be something that you have to consciously think about doing and chose to do; and, they didn't want salvaging to be an automated task.
Would that be right up there with them wanting mining to not be an automated task? (aka: Macro~Mining)
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Perrigrene
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Posted - 2010.01.14 03:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aloriana Jacques
I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right....
But I recall a dev saying that they didn't want us to have salvage drones because salvaging should be something that you have to consciously think about doing and chose to do; and, they didn't want salvaging to be an automated task.
I don't see the problem with having salvaging drones, you have to target the wreck and sick them on it, or several and send each on a wreck. Letting them 'loose' to salvage everything in your control range is silly, mining drones don't work like that why should salvaging drones?
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