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DR Muon
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Posted - 2010.01.08 15:22:00 -
[1]
you do not pay to extract minerals (bar the start up costs of the mining ship). If it were true and mined minerals werent free CCP would have designed a system in which you would simply fly into a asteriod belt with a hauler and insert coins into a gaint ore vendor.
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Redwolf
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.08 15:25:00 -
[2]
Fail troll is still fail.
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DR Muon
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Posted - 2010.01.08 15:34:00 -
[3]
Edited by: DR Muon on 08/01/2010 15:34:16 I genuinely believe this. i love how anyone who states an opinion that you don't agree with is labbelled a troll. its reminsant of the catholic church and scientists in the middile ages.
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Samuel Freedom
Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation
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Posted - 2010.01.08 15:42:00 -
[4]
Originally by: DR Muon Edited by: DR Muon on 08/01/2010 15:34:16 I genuinely believe this. i love how anyone who states an opinion that you don't agree with is labbelled a troll. its reminsant of the catholic church and scientists in the middile ages.
Bite!
Your time = no value
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.08 15:53:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Samuel Freedom Bite!
Your time = no value
Indeed, he does seem quite worthless to me.
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ninjasmoke
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Posted - 2010.01.08 15:58:00 -
[6]
I hope to god you're 10 years old or younger. If you ARE that young, then don't sweat the reaction you're about to get.
If you're NOT a child... Just uninstall Eve.
Watch what I'm about to do here:
I have 1,000,000 units of trit, and I have 2 choices: I can build something from them, or I can sell them for a total of 2.5M isk (I dunno the exact price today of trit, let's go with 2.5 isk/unit for now though). Are you going to make an arguement that they are not worth the 2.5M isk?
Nobody says it costs money to mine them. People will say that your time is worth money. With someone like yourself, I could make a strong counter-arguement to that... But my point is just that they have VALUE. Do me a favor. To prove they have no value, contract all your ore/minerals to me for 1M isk, and it'll be pure 100% profit AND you'll have made your point.
Barring you posess them in a remote region of null sec with no market, fair enough. But I'm quite certain you don't posess the mental 'stuff' req'd to live out there anyway, so I don't believe that's the case.
I really think this guy is for real btw... no trolling, just plain stupid.
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ingenting
20th Legion Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.01.08 16:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: ninjasmoke i got trolled
i see what you did there
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Scout Ops
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Posted - 2010.01.08 16:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ninjasmoke stuff
wise minmatar II perfectly strikes moronic amarr I, wrecking for 101 lulz damage.
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ingenting
20th Legion Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.01.08 16:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: ingenting on 08/01/2010 16:43:48
Originally by: Scout Ops
Originally by: ninjasmoke stuff
wise minmatar II perfectly strikes moronic amarr I, wrecking for 101 lulz damage.
amarr troll bomb II perfectly strikes moronic caldari for over 9000 internets
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.08 17:39:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Akita T on 08/01/2010 17:42:45
Yes, minerals from ore you mined yourself ARE indeed FREE in the sense that it (usually) costs you no (additional) ISK to get some ore out of the belt (you just need time). However, that does not make them (minerals) WORTHLESS, nor worth less than minerals you purchase from others. ...which is what the argument was always about (people were just using the wrong wording out of bad habit).
_
We are recruiting | Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper |
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.01.08 18:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akita T ALL ISK IN EVE IS ALSO FREE
Yes, the OP should give all of his to me immediately. I will split the worthless isk with you, Akita.
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Kalexander
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Posted - 2010.01.08 18:55:00 -
[12]
As an interesting thought experiment (I'm not calling this a math problem). Consider a successful farmer who has all kinds of crops, and more than enough livestock on his farm.
Now tomorrow is an important day, its his hot daughters birthday so he wants to prepare a breakfast. He wakes up that morning and wants to kill a pig for sausage and bacon, and cook up 1 dozen eggs from his hen roust. Now before he does anything, he knows outside on the road, he can go "X" distance left to sell his livestock, or he can go "X^2" distance right to buy more of the same very livestock. He also knows when he goes to the town on the left his livestock sells, but takes a while to find the right buyer, and its always for a bit more than what he can buy it on the right for.
He wakes up, kills and prepares the pig, and cooks the eggs himself, and has a nice breakfast with his family. Now he could have spent the day before, selling his livestock in one place, and rebuying it at the other for less, but he knows his own livestock, and takes pride in it. The crap he buys on the right isn't as good, at least in his mind, and its his daughters birthday so he wanted to prepare the meal himself.
Can their be scenarios in eve where value can be determined by different things (obviouslly, quality and product differentiation doesn't exist, and thats probably the biggest difference in real markets to eve)? If you are a Miner, can your minerals be of a seperate value to you than what the market indicates because you set the goal, and acquired them, and took pride in your choice to doing so? Because it was fun to get, and other options may not be, does that change the rationale in what they mean to you?
Lets discuss!
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Borun Tal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.08 19:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: DR Muon Edited by: DR Muon on 08/01/2010 15:34:16 I genuinely believe this. i love how anyone who states an opinion that you don't agree with is labbelled a troll. its reminsant of the catholic church and scientists in the middile ages.
The opinion doesn't make it a troll. What makes it a troll is that it's been discussed, rarely in a civil manner, about fifty bazillion times on these forums. Do what works for you. Personally, I rely on the accounting costs method, and not--- the other one.
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MotherFarker
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Posted - 2010.01.08 21:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T ALL ISK IN EVE IS ALSO FREE, since all you need to get it is time.[/b]
this. |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.08 21:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kalexander Now he could have spent the day before, selling his livestock in one place, and rebuying it at the other for less, but he knows his own livestock, and takes pride in it. The crap he buys on the right isn't as good, at least in his mind, and its his daughters birthday so he wanted to prepare the meal himself.
In your case, he would actually value his livestock more, whereas the OP is saying he values his minerals less. It is mostly immaterial, though, since there is no differentiation between items in Eve. You kind of get this with named and T2 variants.
Originally by: Kalexander Because it was fun to get, and other options may not be, does that change the rationale in what they mean to you?
Lets discuss!
By all means, do what is most fun to you; it can be satisfying to perform the whole line yourself. But when you start talking about absolute value, Akita is correct, and following the idea of opportunity cost will help you to make the most efficient use of your time for the most ISKies.
For example, let's say I can make 20 Mil an hour missioning, or I could make 10 Mil an hour mining.
Now, I could mine for two hours. I now have plenty of pretty minerals in my hanger. What do I do with them? I could sell them for 20 Mil, or put them together in production for an item I could have bought for 15 Mil. At the end of the day, my value has raised by 15 Mil.
These arguments ignore distance. Factor in the time it takes you to go to where you could have sold the minerals and bought the item and back. If it was longer than half an hour, in my example, then it's just as efficient to "devalue" your minerals and build the item yourself. If it's two minutes, you should have sold the minerals and bought the item for an end of the day value of 20 Mil.
Now for some more opportunity cost. I could have instead missioned for those two hours to get 40 Mil. Buy the needed item for 15 Mil, if I like, but at the end of the day I have increased my value by 40 Mil, twice that of the mining, so for most efficient use of my time I should mission and buy items or minerals.
Again, if you mining is so much more fun, then go ahead and mine. It is a game, after all.
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.01.08 22:12:00 -
[16]
MY mined minerals are free, it's only when they leave my hands via a transaction do they gain a "worth" attribute. Until that point, they simply are products of my immeasurable work and Gaia's generosity.
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor
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Posted - 2010.01.09 02:56:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Zifrian on 09/01/2010 03:05:44
Originally by: grapez MY mined minerals are free, it's only when they leave my hands via a transaction do they gain a "worth" attribute. Until that point, they simply are products of my immeasurable work and Gaia's generosity.
They still aren't free because you had to expend time to get them. Free would be like that unit of Tritanium you get with every Velator. You expended no effort or resources to get it. This is hardly true with mining. Furthermore, the fact that you took the time to mine them at all means they have some intrinsic value to you. Because you know putting them on the market will get you ISK, you expended time and resources to mine them - you made a rational cost/benefit decision for those items. Even if you didn't put them on the market and wanted to collect ore from the game, it still serves a purpose and has intrinsic value to you.
If minerals weren't worth anything and you still mined them, then it would be no different than me making the irrational decision to go outside to collect sand on the street to help change the aroma of your tea.
You mine minerals precisely because they are NOT free.
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Minchurra
Caldari Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.01.09 03:46:00 -
[18]
Guys, his minerals are free. Who are we to judge?
Now, OP, keep selling me those ships below market prices please.
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Forum Reprentative
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Posted - 2010.01.09 04:07:00 -
[19]
maybe op is using a macro program so he just go to sleep and when he wakes up in the morning.. BAM! a bunch of free minerals are magically in his hangar.
Maybe he's computer is powered by solar cells/batteries so he doesn't even consume electricity.
you see? Free minerals.
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JIta Bob
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Posted - 2010.01.09 05:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 08/01/2010 17:51:28
__ ALL ISK IN EVE COSTS $15 PER MONTH
Fixed.
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Marcus Atntony
The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
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Posted - 2010.01.09 08:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Samuel Freedom
Originally by: DR Muon Edited by: DR Muon on 08/01/2010 15:34:16 I genuinely believe this. i love how anyone who states an opinion that you don't agree with is labbelled a troll. its reminsant of the catholic church and scientists in the middile ages.
Bite!
Your time = no value
Yep claiming that are "free" shows you have either no self-value or no understanding of economics.
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Chilli Max
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Posted - 2010.01.09 11:34:00 -
[22]
Unfortunately you are all wrong! LMFAO... when one of you dim wits pulls his head out of the sand and thinks beyond the end of your stupid insignificant & shallow statements, (you may even choose to apply first principle accounting and economics) you will see the DR is indeed right. Unfortunately while you rely on a 'time is money' argument you overlook some fairly obvious points. Buying and shipping minerals takes how long? What about activity based costing? Perhaps in the banal world of the lobbyist, the herding behavior provides comfort, the trolling here comes from the herd and not the original post.
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Ender's Shadow
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Posted - 2010.01.09 12:08:00 -
[23]
Looted items are free too. Plz sell me all your scout named guns and modulated lasers at cost - 0 isk.
Any item/resource you have has potential value if you sell it. The only reason to produce an item out of materials is to increase value. Otherwise you'd sell it without producing. Whether or not you consider these resources 'free' you should ask if you're increasing their value by making them into something.
If mined minerals are free, than bounties from killing stuff is free also. And if when you produce, let's say, a caracal with mined isk and sell it for 4mil and say you made 4mil profit, you should apply the same idea to using 4mil isk you got from bounties, buying a caracal at 4mil and then selling it at 4mil, claiming you just made 4mil profit.
Stop - it's not free, but you did earn it (expend your time to get it). These items have an isk value.
It's like owning a business. Instead of hiring enough staff you work overtime and drive yourself nuts, claiming that your hours are free while employees have to be paid. It's ridiculous, and only worth your time if your net profit divided by the hours worked amounts to a decent wage.
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Chilli Max
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Posted - 2010.01.09 12:31:00 -
[24]
You're still relying on the 'time is money' argument, while using an added value proposition. Your 'its like running a business' analogy is weak... if the shop is open it does not mean people are buying. All activity generates a cost, your activity in game is an opportunity, bounties are free except the ammo cost, a variable cost, mining has no variable cost base. If you sell your loot you have an income, less your variable cost. In mining without the variable cost you are able to generate an income across the sunken cost of a PLEX card. Whether in your mind this is an optimal position is something of a mute point, but being in game you swallow the cost of your activity. At the same time incidentally you have a net gain in asset (avatar) value as a result of increased worth due to training. Alternatively you can sit on a gate and hope for the wealth to present itself to you whilst asking in game for price checks in Jita, a higher risk proposition than asking for price checks whilst putting minerals in your hanger.
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Degeneracy
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Posted - 2010.01.09 13:58:00 -
[25]
Successful troll is successful.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium
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Posted - 2010.01.09 14:09:00 -
[26]
hey take a look at the spreadsheet that's linked if you can, actually wait until version 10 as that will be so much better than that one.
Anyway have fun licking your free Ore.
Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread full batch manufacturing
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor
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Posted - 2010.01.09 18:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Chilli Max You're still relying on the 'time is money' argument, while using an added value proposition. Your 'its like running a business' analogy is weak... if the shop is open it does not mean people are buying. All activity generates a cost, your activity in game is an opportunity, bounties are free except the ammo cost, a variable cost, mining has no variable cost base. If you sell your loot you have an income, less your variable cost. In mining without the variable cost you are able to generate an income across the sunken cost of a PLEX card. Whether in your mind this is an optimal position is something of a mute point, but being in game you swallow the cost of your activity. At the same time incidentally you have a net gain in asset (avatar) value as a result of increased worth due to training. Alternatively you can sit on a gate and hope for the wealth to present itself to you whilst asking in game for price checks in Jita, a higher risk proposition than asking for price checks whilst putting minerals in your hanger.
Minerals still have an intrinsic value to you or you wouldn't mine them in the first place. Thus, they are not "free". The "time is money" argument simply means "time has value". In this game spending time doing an activity has some value to the user. Whether it is spinning your ship in the station or running level 4 missions, people do it because they find value in it and expend time to do it.
Because minerals have value, you make a rational decision to mine them because they are not free.
This is not a hard concept to understand. If you are fighting with the logic, you are either trolling or having a hard time admitting you are wrong.
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Millimage
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.01.09 18:34:00 -
[28]
If it's not worth building with market bought materials, it's not worth building (for sale). A simple rule to last you a clonetime. ______________________
My EVE blog |
Slavemaster
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Posted - 2010.01.09 18:56:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Slavemaster on 09/01/2010 18:57:00 Edit::: Wrong thread
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GallenteCitizen0923475
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Posted - 2010.01.09 19:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Chilli Max You're still relying on the 'time is money' argument, while using an added value proposition. Your 'its like running a business' analogy is weak...
>.> its not a "time is money" argument... its called oppertunity cost... if your going to brag about using proper economic terms... you should learn them first :D Its not that the time is money, its that the time is spent mining should be weighed against you using the same time say missioning, or hauling.
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