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Pantload
Gallente
The Underpants Gnomes
Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.01.15 16:09:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Sturmwolke
Poster above might want to re-evaluate ever using an SBA for a 4 slot tank.
For Ravenkind, use 4 hardeners (correctly configured) and you'll notice the difference almost immediately.
SBA's only better if you've got 5 slots to spare.
The poster above only offered that fitting as a compromise solution. The poster above would not actually use that fitting or normally even recommend it.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes.
Buy Corps here
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Birdman Ravo
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Posted - 2010.01.15 22:08:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Erm, I like to think I have a pretty solid understanding of the ship fitting parts of this game, but I am hardly infallible. I have been wrong before - like when I suggested fitting a needless DC II when a Sig Amp is actually a better choice.
-Liang
Sometimes even "mistakes" like this work for the best. In the interest of science I bought a Raven on Monday and gank fitted it, putting the DCII in the low instead of a PDUII or Sig Amp based on one of your fits. My first ever damage oriented fit. Sure enough, WC (Serp / Guristas) L4 broke it on thursday, which I only managed to get out of thanks to some extra hull & armor resistance.
I know the recent FOTM on the forums is all gank and no tank, but sometimes a ship just has to take some abuse. A lot of the fits I've seen on here depend a lot on skillpoints that some of us just don't have.
If you have warp out, fit to tank more. If your tank is fine, lose some tank and fit damage mods. Somewhere in the middle you'll find the fit that keeps you alive and kills the fastest. Skillpoints will dictate the balance.
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.15 22:24:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Birdman Ravo
...
Questions:
- Have you ever run a mission in a non permatank Raven before?
- Do you have T2 cruise/Cruise 5?
- Did you use Fury or CN ammo?
- Are you running with hardwirings?
- Did you fit faction BCUs?
- Did you use your drones?
- Did you or your drones shoot the spy?
The reason that gank tanking is all the FOTM is because it simply works as long as you are a competent mission runner - though I will be the first to admit that there's a learning curve when coming from "AFK" tanks like a Drake has. It's amusing that you should say that it broke your tank - because that would mean that it would almost certainly have also have broken whatever raven fitting you had before.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.01.16 15:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Birdman Ravo
In the interest of science I bought a Raven on Monday and gank fitted it, putting the DCII in the low instead of a PDUII or Sig Amp based on one of your fits. My first ever damage oriented fit. Sure enough, WC (Serp / Guristas) L4 broke it on thursday, which I only managed to get out of thanks to some extra hull & armor resistance.
I know the recent FOTM on the forums is all gank and no tank, but sometimes a ship just has to take some abuse. A lot of the fits I've seen on here depend a lot on skillpoints that some of us just don't have.
I run a tank very similar to Liang's except I use a cap flux coil down low instead of a cap booster in the mids, and I use 3 passive resistance amps instead of active hardners. I frequently run the serp/guristas WC and never have to warp out.
Originally by: Birdman Ravo
If you have warp out, fit to tank more. If your tank is fine, lose some tank and fit damage mods. Somewhere in the middle you'll find the fit that keeps you alive and kills the fastest. Skillpoints will dictate the balance.
The thing is, your advice at the end is what leads to the Liang fit. For your first L4s, you over tank a ship, and as you learn your boundaries, start dropping tank mods and fitting more gank mods. In the then end you will end up with 4 BCSs, 3 rigor rigs, 3 hardeners and a target painter and just one module for cap. The Liang fit uses a cap booster so that you aren't skill dependent.
Originally by: Doc Robertson
...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.01.16 15:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Poster above might want to re-evaluate ever using an SBA for a 4 slot tank.
The poster above only offered that fitting as a compromise solution. The poster above would not actually use that fitting or normally even recommend it.
Nah, I'm not convinced. Poster above doesn't have donkey ears and yells heee haw!
You're obviously an impostor.
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Pantload
Gallente
The Underpants Gnomes
Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.01.16 16:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Poster above might want to re-evaluate ever using an SBA for a 4 slot tank.
The poster above only offered that fitting as a compromise solution. The poster above would not actually use that fitting or normally even recommend it.
Nah, I'm not convinced. Poster above doesn't have donkey ears and yells heee haw!
You're obviously an impostor.
This made coffee come out of my nose. Not pleasant, but funny.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes.
Buy Corps here
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.16 20:01:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 16/01/2010 20:04:28
Originally by: Birdman Ravo
I know the recent FOTM on the forums is all gank and no tank, but sometimes a ship just has to take some abuse. A lot of the fits I've seen on here depend a lot on skillpoints that some of us just don't have.
I use Liang's fit. I have minimal skills to be able to fit the modules and pilot the ship. I'm mainly a miner/industrialist and when I group PvP I'm in an unarmed ECM ship (well, smartbomb, neuts, and a few drones). Works fine for me.
Experience does make a big difference though, especially when you are willing to try new things. I've learned quite a bit how to avoid taking much damage. Everything from maneuvering the ship to which NPC to take out first.
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Birdman Ravo
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Posted - 2010.01.16 20:59:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Questions:
- Have you ever run a mission in a non permatank Raven before?
- Do you have T2 cruise/Cruise 5?
- Did you use Fury or CN ammo?
- Are you running with hardwirings?
- Did you fit faction BCUs?
- Did you use your drones?
- Did you or your drones shoot the spy?
The reason that gank tanking is all the FOTM is because it simply works as long as you are a competent mission runner - though I will be the first to admit that there's a learning curve when coming from "AFK" tanks like a Drake has. It's amusing that you should say that it broke your tank - because that would mean that it would almost certainly have also have broken whatever raven fitting you had before.
-Liang
Never owned a permatank Raven, yes, no, no, T2, yes, and yes in that order. I glanced on Eve Survival only for the damage types and set out on that mission.
Suggest that I'm an incompetent mission runner if you must. I made one mistake and nearly lost the ship. I'm stating that the DCII kept the Raven from popping long enough for me to warp out. As for the pocket breaking any other fits, I've never flown a Raven before this one.
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.01.16 22:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Birdman Ravo
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Questions:
- Did you or your drones shoot the spy?
-Liang
yes I glanced on Eve Survival only for the damage types and set out on that mission.
Suggest that I'm an incompetent mission runner if you must.
Sorry, I think I must. If you don't know that shooting the spies aggroes a whole room, that is being imcompetent. Well, it isn't really bad not to know that, everyone starts off not knowing that. But to not know the triggers, and not care to look in eve-survival for what the triggers are, well... you can't really blame the fit for that.
Originally by: Doc Robertson
...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Birdman Ravo
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Posted - 2010.01.16 23:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dacryphile
Sorry, I think I must. If you don't know that shooting the spies aggroes a whole room, that is being imcompetent. Well, it isn't really bad not to know that, everyone starts off not knowing that. But to not know the triggers, and not care to look in eve-survival for what the triggers are, well... you can't really blame the fit for that.
Ok I'll give you that. I don't see that kind of weight put on one rat very often, and did not expect it. Guessing at which rat is a trigger worked just fine in Minmatar space, and my experience there told me anything involving Serpentis was just easy bounties, WC included.
The point isn't me screwing up a mission. The point I want to make is that I believe a rookie mission runner's Raven shouldn't have a fit that depends on them not making any mistakes. That means a little extra tank. Not fail fitting, just something that won't melt if you accidentally leave the shield repper on and drain your cap, pull an entire room, or in my case kill a trigger too early.
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.17 03:56:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Birdman Ravo
The point isn't me screwing up a mission. The point I want to make is that I believe a rookie mission runner's Raven shouldn't have a fit that depends on them not making any mistakes. That means a little extra tank. Not fail fitting, just something that won't melt if you accidentally leave the shield repper on and drain your cap, pull an entire room, or in my case kill a trigger too early.
Ok, I want to be very clear here: The "all gank no tank" Raven is hardly "no tank". It has the same burst tank that pretty much all mission ravens have ever had - and I'm seeing a 950 Guristas DPS burst tank that can essentially be maintained until you run out of cap boosters - and that's traditionally been its only major criticism.
Q: "But what if I run out of cap boosters and have to warp out to get more?"
A: "Then you would have died a long time ago in a recharge fit"
Q: "What's the difference between this and my recharge fit?"
A: "It has the same tank but lots lots more gank"
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Birdman Ravo
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Posted - 2010.01.17 18:53:00 -
[42]
Wait... 950 burst tank? Mine has a 216 sustained and 504 burst. Are you using an XL booster for the burst tank? If so where are you getting the CPU for one?
[Raven, Active Tank]
Ballistic Control System II X4
Damage Control II
Large Shield Booster II
Active Shield Hardener II X4
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Cruise Missile X6
[empty high slot] X2
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I X3
Hammerhead II x5
Me:
CPU: 874.73 / 875
All V
CPU: 864.81 / 875
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.17 19:19:00 -
[43]
You can do missions in a LSB setup (I've done it), but you tend to have to watch aggro a bit closer so that things don't overwhelm your tank.
[Raven, My Mission Raven]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II
Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Target Painter II
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
If you *really* don't like spending ISK on CN BCUs/CN XL (even though they drop straight in to your CNR in a few months):
- CN XL -> XL C5-L
- CN BCUs -> BCU IIs
- Sig Amp -> Co-Proc II
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Birdman Ravo
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Posted - 2010.01.17 20:16:00 -
[44]
That clarifies a lot! Faction fitting one would easily free up the CPU to XL boost fit the ship. The XL Booster would just about double the burst tank of the fit.
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.18 01:53:00 -
[45]
Dropping one rigor rig also makes it rather easier to fit, if you don't want full faction. I think my version has one faction BCU, all the rest bar launchers is T2 ( well, pwnage too ). Alt is lacking WU5 though.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.01.18 05:22:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You can do missions in a LSB setup (I've done it), but you tend to have to watch aggro a bit closer so that things don't overwhelm your tank.
If you *really* don't like spending ISK on CN BCUs/CN XL (even though they drop straight in to your CNR in a few months):
- CN XL -> XL C5-L
- CN BCUs -> BCU IIs
- Sig Amp -> Co-Proc II
-Liang
I was using a dread guristas large booster as I picked up a few ratting, and really cba to put them up on contrats for 20mil each. never really had a problem with running out of cap boosters, or tank. and most missions are doable without even touching the cap boosters.
the signal amp is really a luxury. added lock range, +2 locked targets, and increased scan res. tbh the only times I found it really helped were wc first room, and in the assault.
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Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
Ex Coelis
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Posted - 2010.01.19 21:39:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Poster above might want to re-evaluate ever using an SBA for a 4 slot tank.
For Ravenkind, use 4 hardeners (correctly configured) and you'll notice the difference almost immediately.
SBA's only better if you've got 5 slots to spare.
Mathematically that is not so from what I can see. Can you give some validation for that claim?
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.19 22:15:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/01/2010 22:26:36
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
What is the big attraction of using a gank fit? It there a prize if you can finish a mission 10-15% faster?
Comments:
- Lower DPS ships have a higher probability of the rats repairing themselves. This alone means that the higher DPS fit is a minimum of 15% faster. The time difference can be much bigger, depending how big the DPS difference is.
- Higher DPS fits not only have much better DPS, but also damage projection. If you deal 85% of the DPS of a gank fit but only apply half of your DPS to cruisers, the effective difference becomes almost 60% across things smaller than BS sized.
- Higher DPS fits are able to one volley some BCs and Cruisers. If it takes you 3-4 volleys to kill them (and it will), the high DPS fit is dealing 400% of your DPS....
- Faster missions not only means more bounties/hr, but also more LP/hr, and usually less costs/hr.
- More ISK/hr means less time missioning for the same end result. For instance, if I want to mission to pay for a new Geddon, I'd need to mission for 3-4 hours... where a lower DPS fit might have to mission for 6-8 hours. I effectively gain the "prize" of being able to play Eve for an extra 4 hours.
-Liang
Ed: TL;DR: The time difference is more than 15%, and the prize is being able to do something fun in Eve.
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
Ex Coelis
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Posted - 2010.01.19 23:19:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: TL;DR: The time difference is more than 15%, and the prize is being able to do something fun in Eve.
I can't say I agree here. Some missions sure. In the ones where you have to go to gates then the DPS makes little difference really. THe time is taken up in going to the gate.
One other assupmtion you amke, which is more often than not false in the case of a new L4 mission runner is that they WANT to finish the missions up fast. The content is new and they want to be able to enjoy the challenge and the newness. Don't rob them of this fun. Once L4's become boring, sure go ahead and get the DPS setups. By then you have better gear and skills.
The OP was NEW. The ideal fit is the tank fit for a NEW Level 4 missioner.
But I did ask what the attraction for you is. Well, Since I have a CNR and good skills I use 7 t2 launchers and two BCS and a signal boost amp. I also use t2 medium drones. I can still kill many BS in one volley using normal missiles so I don't need the painter. I don't often even need the XL shield booster let alone the cap booster in most missions. That said the DPS fit does not really make for a great deal of difference. My DPS is pretty good as it stands.
Besides, I often mission with other (newer) players and joint missions have a habit of going pear shaped with agro management. Being the raven pilot, I am often the only one left in the room after others warp out and get room agro. Being tanky mean I can stay there and hold my own without shooting. I then wait for the others to come back and start shooting again. That means the bounties are shared more evenly.
Maybe people should keep a couple of sets of mods for running missions. A DPS fit for some situations and a tank fit for others. My point was that with the tank fit you have the most versatility and safety. That point remains true.
M
:)
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.01.19 23:36:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: TL;DR: The time difference is more than 15%, and the prize is being able to do something fun in Eve.
I can't say I agree here. Some missions sure. In the ones where you have to go to gates then the DPS makes little difference really. THe time is taken up in going to the gate.
One other assupmtion you amke, which is more often than not false in the case of a new L4 mission runner is that they WANT to finish the missions up fast. The content is new and they want to be able to enjoy the challenge and the newness. Don't rob them of this fun. Once L4's become boring, sure go ahead and get the DPS setups. By then you have better gear and skills.
The OP was NEW. The ideal fit is the tank fit for a NEW Level 4 missioner.
But I did ask what the attraction for you is. Well, Since I have a CNR and good skills I use 7 t2 launchers and two BCS and a signal boost amp. I also use t2 medium drones. I can still kill many BS in one volley using normal missiles so I don't need the painter. I don't often even need the XL shield booster let alone the cap booster in most missions. That said the DPS fit does not really make for a great deal of difference. My DPS is pretty good as it stands.
Besides, I often mission with other (newer) players and joint missions have a habit of going pear shaped with agro management. Being the raven pilot, I am often the only one left in the room after others warp out and get room agro. Being tanky mean I can stay there and hold my own without shooting. I then wait for the others to come back and start shooting again. That means the bounties are shared more evenly.
Maybe people should keep a couple of sets of mods for running missions. A DPS fit for some situations and a tank fit for others. My point was that with the tank fit you have the most versatility and safety. That point remains true.
M
:)
personally I always loved being the dps. Also the more interesting parts of new missions is the flavor text in the mission offer, and occasionally in the chat.
the most fun part however was watching my wallet go up.
DPS ftw!
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.19 23:55:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/01/2010 23:59:43
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
I can't say I agree here. Some missions sure. In the ones where you have to go to gates then the DPS makes little difference really. THe time is taken up in going to the gate.
There's like 2 missions total like that - and you probably shouldn't actually accept either one of them.
Quote:
One other assupmtion you amke, which is more often than not false in the case of a new L4 mission runner is that they WANT to finish the missions up fast. The content is new and they want to be able to enjoy the challenge and the newness. Don't rob them of this fun. Once L4's become boring, sure go ahead and get the DPS setups. By then you have better gear and skills.
Uummmmmmm......... ok, we're *totally* different. To me (and this has always been true), the fun in Eve is in SHOOTING OTHER PEOPLE. The PVE grind has always been exactly that - the grind that has to be done for a specific goal in Eve. And truthfully, the only "fun" thing about missions is in competing with myself and others to see just how high I can drive ISK/hr and how low I can drive mission completion time.
It is utterly inconceivable to me that someone would enjoy the actual running of the mission itself.
Quote:
The OP was NEW. The ideal fit is the tank fit for a NEW Level 4 missioner.
TBH, if they're still new enough to L4s that they require coddling to that level while they get their feet wet, they should be in a 4 SPR Drake .... just in case. I mean, who cares if it takes 3 reloads to kill a BS rat?
Quote:
Since I have a CNR and good skills I use 7 t2 launchers and two BCS and a signal boost amp. I also use t2 medium drones. I can still kill many BS in one volley using normal missiles so I don't need the painter.
Please list the rats that you kill with one volley in a 3 CCC CNR. Especially the BS sized rats.
Quote:
Maybe people should keep a couple of sets of mods for running missions. A DPS fit for some situations and a tank fit for others. My point was that with the tank fit you have the most versatility and safety. That point remains true.
I think you're overly negative about the tank that comes from gank fitting. It A) has a great tank of its own, and B) has a great DPS tank. Even if the noob ****s up aggro, the cap booster will carry him through with a worst case that he warps out to pick up more cap charges.
-Liang
Ed: I'm also extremely skeptical of your claim that a 2 BCU/0 Painter/3 CCC CNR is remotely competitive with a 4 BCU/Painter/3 Rigor CNR. Can you post some solo mission completion times?
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.01.20 01:13:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
Well, Since I have a CNR and good skills I use 7 t2 launchers and two BCS and a signal boost amp. I also use t2 medium drones. I can still kill many BS in one volley using normal missiles so I don't need the painter.
I call shenanigans. Fraps or it didn't happen.
Originally by: Doc Robertson
...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
Ex Coelis
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Posted - 2010.01.20 01:18:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
I can't say I agree here. Some missions sure. In the ones where you have to go to gates then the DPS makes little difference really. THe time is taken up in going to the gate.
There's like 2 missions total like that - and you probably shouldn't actually accept either one of them.
Sorry mate. We all play the game we want to. We are not all you.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
One other assupmtion you amke, which is more often than not false in the case of a new L4 mission runner is that they WANT to finish the missions up fast. The content is new and they want to be able to enjoy the challenge and the newness. Don't rob them of this fun. Once L4's become boring, sure go ahead and get the DPS setups. By then you have better gear and skills.
Uummmmmmm......... ok, we're *totally* different. To me (and this has always been true), the fun in Eve is in SHOOTING OTHER PEOPLE. The PVE grind has always been exactly that - the grind that has to be done for a specific goal in Eve. And truthfully, the only "fun" thing about missions is in competing with myself and others to see just how high I can drive ISK/hr and how low I can drive mission completion time.
It is utterly inconceivable to me that someone would enjoy the actual running of the mission itself.
Your inability to conceive something does not make it less true. For people like you there should only be one mission that randomly generates 20 mill isk worth of NPC ships every time. Content development is utterly wasted on you.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
The OP was NEW. The ideal fit is the tank fit for a NEW Level 4 missioner.
TBH, if they're still new enough to L4s that they require coddling to that level while they get their feet wet, they should be in a 4 SPR Drake .... just in case. I mean, who cares if it takes 3 reloads to kill a BS rat?
Many people do that. Good on them if that is what they want to do.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
Since I have a CNR and good skills I use 7 t2 launchers and two BCS and a signal boost amp. I also use t2 medium drones. I can still kill many BS in one volley using normal missiles so I don't need the painter.
Please list the rats that you kill with one volley in a 3 CCC CNR. Especially the BS sized rats.
That was a typo. I meant BC. In fact I can one volley some BC's with only 3 or 4 launchers.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
Maybe people should keep a couple of sets of mods for running missions. A DPS fit for some situations and a tank fit for others. My point was that with the tank fit you have the most versatility and safety. That point remains true.
I think you're overly negative about the tank that comes from gank fitting. It A) has a great tank of its own, and B) has a great DPS tank. Even if the noob ****s up aggro, the cap booster will carry him through with a worst case that he warps out to pick up more cap charges.
-Liang
Listen Liang, I accepted that the DPS way was a valid way. Read my posts. If someone puts up an opinion that is different from yours it does not mean they are attacking you or they are being negative towards you. I think that you have some issues about personal power in your life. Does that make your opinion any less valid? No.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: I'm also extremely skeptical of your claim that a 2 BCU/0 Painter/3 CCC CNR is remotely competitive with a 4 BCU/Painter/3 Rigor CNR. Can you post some solo mission completion times?
I don't time my missions. I just enjoy playing them. I don't see running missions as a competitive activity. After all, being the fastest mission runner does not make you a better person. When you get to the end of your life and look back, being a good computer game player really does not rate. :)
So Liang, remember that other people play Eve for different motivations than you.
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.20 01:47:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/01/2010 01:47:38
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
...
I don't ask you all to be me. In fact, the universe would be very boring, because in general, I am an extremely boring individual. However, as boring as I am, I am also compassionate. I would never willingly tell someone to do something unpleasant in a slow and inefficient manner. Furthermore, I have no tolerance at all for someone that tells others to do things that are widely perceived as unpleasant in a slow and inefficient manner. I even consider it one step shy of outright sadism... 
Let's take this out of Eve for a minute. Suppose that this is a forum about building Widget A. Let's further assume that Widget A is widely considered annoying and/or painful to create, but is required for super cool and fun Widget B. So someone asks how to build Widget A with a specific set of requirements, and I answer the most fastest and most cost efficient method I know. Then you come along and answer a method that is no safer, but much slower and less efficient. And when called on it, your argument is that building Widget A for the pure enjoyment of building Widget A is fine.
Well, sure, it's fine but it's pretty ****ing abnormal... and I would consider any advice that suggests to people to increase their costs/time investment/pain/annoyance to be bad (and nearing sadistic) advice.
So tell me: who has more "issues" in their personal life:
- The sadist that tells everyone to do something unpleasant inefficiently and slowly
- The guy that tells everyone to do something unpleasant fast and efficiently
Now, that said: is missioning super unpleasant for everyone? No, probably not - but I would feel like I were being extremely presumptuous to assume that they didn't have something better to do with their time than grind ISK slowly for no apparent reason. Hell, one of the bigger reasons behind the cap booster on my suggested Raven fit is to provide a virtually unparalleled safety margin. And then you come along saying to increase it and make people run missions slower.... 
-Liang
Ed: Grammar
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.20 02:12:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
Your inability to conceive something does not make it less true. For people like you there should only be one mission that randomly generates 20 mill isk worth of NPC ships every time. Content development is utterly wasted on you.
You know, I was thinking about this. It would be a pretty major nerf to my PVE income (much of it comes from LP, you understand - hence the focus on finishing missions quickly), but I think it would actually be more enjoyable than rescuing the Damsel for the 4000th time.
Seems like you could lead up to some pretty awesome random story arcs that way.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.20 02:27:00 -
[56]
A random ( parameterized ) mission generator would be *fantastic*. Unless you're of the opinion that the best misson would just hand you the bounties without you even undocking, anyway.
I like riding the edge of losing a ship in the interests of mission completion time ( either that or attempting something absurd ); overtanking and slowly plinking away at room contents is effectively mining, and while I personally can't stand that, people obviously do enjoy that too. The cap-booster XLSB fit's tank is going to last plenty long enough to get scramming NPCs off you and you out of a mission if it's gone wrong, even if you didn't have the experience to anticipate it. If it *isn't* enough tank then I'm sorry, you're lacking in DPS mitigation which needs a bigger tank, not a longer lasting one.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.01.20 06:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
Your inability to conceive something does not make it less true. For people like you there should only be one mission that randomly generates 20 mill isk worth of NPC ships every time. Content development is utterly wasted on you.
You know, I was thinking about this. It would be a pretty major nerf to my PVE income (much of it comes from LP, you understand - hence the focus on finishing missions quickly), but I think it would actually be more enjoyable than rescuing the Damsel for the 4000th time.
Seems like you could lead up to some pretty awesome random story arcs that way.
-Liang
tbh I'm going to agree with Liang here, that does sound way more interesting than the boring static missions of now.
I want to see new content, not run the same set of missions 100 times
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2010.01.20 08:53:00 -
[58]
1 Liang is correct on the Fit XL booster gank raven with painter and rigors is the way to go.
Don't care what is your reason for running missions you might as well be effective when you do.
2 There is no content really in missions It is either go shoot npc maybe then shoot structure done over and over and over OR move (insert random crap here) from point a to point b.
Who reads after 100th time anything beside the mission title and only because of hardeners.
PVE is not even trying to be interesting as far as the missions are concerned.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2010.01.20 18:11:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Mendolus on 20/01/2010 18:13:52
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Black Necromunger
4th BCS increased damage very slightly. i would replace it with something else.
Yes, of course, because nobody likes more damage.
This is the worst piece of misinformation that I see people continue to vomit up on the forums here.
You have to stop spreading this. I know somebody probably told you this along time ago and you've been chanting it ever since, but it must stop.
Simple fact: The 4th BCS adds more damage. Period.
WTF else do you need in 5 lowslots when you already have your tank covered? Put a damn DC II in the 5th slot if that makes you feel better, but even that is a waste. 5th low slot should be a Signal Amplifier II.
This concludes the rant.
As you were.
PL
Yes, because going from 370DPS to 380DPS and using up your last low slot is going to make or break L4s farming! Oh wai...
For someone with only starter skills who does not have a high yield yet, adding a fourth BCU is like tossing an extra piece of straw on a bonfire... let them use that slot for a DC (as you so crudely put it) so they can screw up a couple times and still walk away with a ship to their name.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Pantload
Gallente
The Underpants Gnomes
Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.01.20 18:52:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Pantload on 20/01/2010 18:54:32
Originally by: Mendolus
Edited by: Mendolus on 20/01/2010 18:13:52
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Black Necromunger
4th BCS increased damage very slightly. i would replace it with something else.
Yes, of course, because nobody likes more damage.
This is the worst piece of misinformation that I see people continue to vomit up on the forums here.
You have to stop spreading this. I know somebody probably told you this along time ago and you've been chanting it ever since, but it must stop.
Simple fact: The 4th BCS adds more damage. Period.
WTF else do you need in 5 lowslots when you already have your tank covered? Put a damn DC II in the 5th slot if that makes you feel better, but even that is a waste. 5th low slot should be a Signal Amplifier II.
This concludes the rant.
As you were.
PL
Yes, because going from 370DPS to 380DPS and using up your last low slot is going to make or break L4s farming! Oh wai...
For someone with only starter skills who does not have a high yield yet, adding a fourth BCU is like tossing an extra piece of straw on a bonfire... let them use that slot for a DC (as you so crudely put it) so they can screw up a couple times and still walk away with a ship to their name.
370 DPS from a Raven is short by almost 300 DPS of its potential. Recheck your assumptions.
PL
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes.
Buy Corps here
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