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FarosWarrior
Amarr
Sonnema
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Posted - 2010.01.12 20:20:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Sumelar
Not being able to tank a mission in a MARAUDER is not CCP's fault.
cheers, Faros
"As long as we're jammed we might as well throw those 1400mm's at them"
Charlie Fodder, Clear Skies |
Ming Ping
Minmatar
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2010.01.13 07:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: FarosWarrior
Originally by: Sumelar
Not being able to tank a mission in a MARAUDER is not CCP's fault.
Well thats complete true, but that is not what I said. Client didn't response so I lost the ship.
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Ming Ping
Minmatar
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2010.01.13 17:24:00 -
[33]
You people got more stories they want to share?
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Rex Ladyhole
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Posted - 2010.01.13 18:44:00 -
[34]
Did you know that the server provides logs on golden tablets that only a GM can view inside a hat? If anyone else makes an attempt to view the server logs, the server will not reveal the golden tablets to them. If the server log needs to be reviewed, they will be different but with the same general message.
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FarosWarrior
Amarr
Sonnema
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Posted - 2010.01.15 13:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ming Ping
Originally by: FarosWarrior
Originally by: Sumelar
Not being able to tank a mission in a MARAUDER is not CCP's fault.
Well thats complete true, but that is not what I said. Client didn't response so I lost the ship.
Originally by: Ming Ping
2.Vargur: I was doing a mission and couldn't tank the mission. So I had to warp out. Client didn't response so I lost the ship.- 2.5 bil lose.
actually you did say that...
permatanks ftw I guess?
cheers, Faros
"As long as we're jammed we might as well throw those 1400mm's at them"
Charlie Fodder, Clear Skies |
Taedrin
Gallente
The Green Cross
DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2010.01.15 15:48:00 -
[36]
Presuming that you aren't leaving out any critical details on issue #1, escalate the petition. Something is weird is definitely going on there. It shouldn't even be POSSIBLE for you to dock a ship while CONCORD is out to get you. If you are telling the truth and CONCORD killed you as soon as you undocked, then get a senior GM to explain to you when and how you got said combat aggression.
Issue #2 is either due to a desynch, or more likely a problem with the internet in general. CCP can't do anything here, because on their end it looks identical to you pulling the plug on your computer. If CCP were to reimburse you here, they would have to reimburse everyone who Ctrl+Q's to get out of a fight.
Issue #3 seems like a desynch or excessive lag. I am somewhat confused by your story here, though. Exactly how did you save your pod if your client was still showing you as in your sleipner? Did you warp your sleipner to a safespot, where your client "caught up" and put you in a pod?
Unfortunately, the GM here is absolutely telling the truth. The server here was doing everything correctly, the fault was your client. Of course the server-logs would not show any problems. Unfortunately, client-side logs can be forged, so CCP can not rely upon them to make reimbursements.
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There is always a choice. The choice might not be easy, nor simple, nor the options be what you desire - but, nevertheless, the choice is there to be made. |
NyteTyger
Gallente
NiteSun Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.01.15 16:26:00 -
[37]
I've actually had a 50/50 response on petitions for reimbursement.
The first time I was in a mission, everything going fine, then *BAM* "Socket was closed". Petitioned that one, and got it back in my hangar sans modules, which, of course, were worth more than the damn hull anyway 
Second time I undocked in 0.0 in my Taranis, and in the middle of undock, 'Socket was closed'. Petitioned that one, "Sorry, logs say nothing".
However, the second time, I found out my router may have reset without me knowing. Same message, looked the same to me, but it could explain why the logs showed nothing in one instance, and obviously did in the other.
Or I may have just caught a GM after burning one down on a break, could go either way 
__________________________________________
It's a do or die universe, so you better damn well choose between one or the other. |
Esus Ionhar
Revolutionary United Front
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2010.01.15 17:35:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Esus Ionhar on 15/01/2010 17:35:19
Are you absolutely sure this isn't your fault.
I have (had - the other is being cancelled) two accounts also. However when I started out I was generally able to use both at the same time without too much difficulty.
However, time (and the client) have moved on. Generally now when I try and run two at once I will frequently get instances of my client "locking up" and not responding for periods of time. I can quite often still switch between the windows...but nothing is happening. More than once I have found myself exiting emergency warp when my client finally catches up.
Is it becaue of lag therefore? Well probably not, I never have any issues when only one client is connected. So I figure it is my fault due to my computer/internet connection simply not being good enough for two accounts at once. I have two options. Upgrade or not play with two accounts at once. I've gone for the not two at once. Problem solved!
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Cyxopyc
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.01.21 23:48:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Cyxopyc on 21/01/2010 23:55:30
Here are some examples of petitions for reimbursement have been turned down. These are the situations which resulted in ship or capsule loss. These are also the only reimbursement petitions I've made.
CCP reimbursement policy is found here: http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/reimbursment.asp
My experience with ship loss reimbursement started 2009.12.26 when I petitioned for a ship lost in a Geminate.
2009.12.26
We bridge a fleet of a few hundred into a system with a few hundred enemy already there. After a minute or two of 'jumping' I see I am in the destination system by the system name showing in the top left. My chat windows are working and my mouse pointer moves as it should freely around the screen. However nothing shows on the overview, no celestials or ships display in space, ship modules won't activate and my ship won't respond to commands to move. After about 15 minutes my shield instantly drops to zero and my armor to about 80% I believe from a bomb attack. After about another 15 minutes nothing else has changed except I see others having similiar diffculties through the communication channels and my shields have regenerated quite a bit. All of this time I have another character in the system where Cyxopyc's death clone is located. I watch carefully, at no time does Cyxopyc appear in local. I decide to close Cyxopyc's client.
I let some minutes go by, when I did enter game Cyxopyc was in station. The ship and capsule had been destroyed. Under the Combat Log there was a loss listed for the ship but not for the capsule which had some implants.
I wrote a petition explaining briefly but accurately what happened. Since the process was new I missed selecting the name of the lost ship from the drop down list provided. But I did give the date of the loss mail in the body of the petition.
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In the following week I had two more losses under extraordinary lag.
2010.01.12
My fleet entered a system to be fought over after the enemy had for the most part set up to fight. I don't remember hearing anyone having trouble loading the system. For about 40 minutes or more we fought each other. During the exchange of fire I think something happened which pushed the 'node' over the edge and it went down. Everyone in the system got disconnected. At times like this strange things can happen like all or some of the ships that had been blown up are now alive again.
==
Support fixing the EVE UI |
Cyxopyc
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.01.21 23:53:00 -
[40]
When the node does return everyone logged back in. Like many others I logged in, selected my character to enter the game, watched the screen go dark with the short rectangle 'Character Selection' window, saying 'Entering game as Cyxopyc', and a progress bar that advanceded as quickly as ever to full but then everything stopped there. The short rectangle window stayed with a dark screen behind it. Closing the client and logging in again only makes matters worse so we're advised not to. Many players described the same situation in the various comm channels. After about 10-15 minutes I decided to close the client early. Watching on another account I waited until Cyxopyc faded from the channels and turned red in the addressbook. Logging back in the same thing happened. This time I waited about 20 minutes when I noticed Cyxopyc left the chat channels and went red in the addressbook on my other account. I closed Cyxopyc's client. Logging back in Cyxopyc enters the game in the contested system in a capsule rather than a ship. My combat logs showed my ship loss as it should.
2010.01.13
Like the day before my fleet entered a system to deal with the invaders already there. We fought for perhaps an hour with reasonable lag. Rather suddenly the lag increased and the team I was a part of started giving reports of module activation and extreme targeting delays that matched my own. We were losing control of our ships. As lag increased my ship began taking fire. Immediately I attempted to warp off but nothing happened. Instead the shields, armor and structure were stripped away then nothing further. I sat in the ship with no reason not to explode for almost 5 minutes trying to move, warp or anything at all but I could do nothing. I closed the client. About 30 minutes later I logged back in to find myself in the fought over system in my capsule with my implants intact.
In Cyxopyc's combat log there is no loss mail for my ship which was blown up. There is a loss mail for my capsule which was not blown up. Although there was no loss mail when I petitioned for reimbursement the ship name was listed as one of Cyxopyc's recent ship losses.
Good luck in your quest to understand ship reimbursement and fly safe.
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Support fixing the EVE UI |
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
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Posted - 2010.01.22 00:29:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 22/01/2010 00:34:23
Originally by: Kerfira
Lighten up... CCP has a (reasonable) politic to only reimburse if there is a PROVEN fault. If there isn't, there's no reimbursement!
Their standard of proof needs tweaking. I jumped a Falcon through a low sec gate, knowing there was a camp on the other side. No problem, right? I can just cloak and warp off, it's low sec, so there's no bubble to prevent it.
My client froze trying to load the grid on the other side - locked up the computer, and had to reboot. But apparently it was still alive enough for the server to think I was still logged on. I lost the Falcon and my pod. CCP said there was nothing in the logs. I pointed out that I was in a Falcon in low sec, and their logs should have shown that I jumped through, waited for gate cloak to expire, and sat there doing nothing, allowing the camp to destroy my ship and my pod, and was that what they think a Falcon pilot would do going through a gate? They said indeed, that was what the logs show. I asked why this wasn't proof enough that my client had crashed, and they just kept repeating that the logs showed no error.
It's like some GMs don't even play this game.
-- He said "The President is near."
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2010.01.22 00:53:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Kerfira
Lighten up... CCP has a (reasonable) politic to only reimburse if there is a PROVEN fault. If there isn't, there's no reimbursement!
Their standard of proof needs tweaking. I jumped a Falcon through a low sec gate, knowing there was a camp on the other side. No problem, right? I can just cloak and warp off, it's low sec, so there's no bubble to prevent it.
My client froze trying to load the grid on the other side - locked up the computer, and had to reboot. But apparently it was still alive enough for the server to think I was still logged on. I lost the Falcon and my pod. CCP said there was nothing in the logs. I pointed out that I was in a Falcon in low sec, and their logs should have shown that I jumped through, waited for gate cloak to expire, and sat there doing nothing, allowing the camp to destroy my ship and my pod, and was that what they think a Falcon pilot would do going through a gate? They said indeed, that was what the logs show. I asked why this wasn't proof enough that my client had crashed, and they just kept repeating that the logs showed no error.
It's like some GMs don't even play this game.
...or you had just set autopilot to that system.... or you might have been playing drunk and fell asleep at the keyboard... or several other explanations....
Prove me wrong!
Your explanation is only one possible way it could happen... If they had a more lenient policy then people WOULD be fabricating lies every time they lost a ship.
Their logs showed no errors. There was no proof. Thus you didn't get reimbursed!
It is the most fair policy they can have since it treats everyone equal, and does not reward whoever is best at creating lies. A firm policy also creates less load on the petition queue, meaning less people have to be employed for it, meaning more money to employ developers to make the game better.
If logic like yours, "Who would just have let their ship sit there and then die?", was enough reason for reimbursement then there are players who would do things like that on purpose, just to annoy CCP (think GoonSwarm and the likes).... Others would use it to pad their killboards... Again others would use it to create free T2 salvage... etc. etc.
You lost a ship in an internet space game... It's not the end of the world....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
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Posted - 2010.01.22 01:21:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 22/01/2010 01:24:22
Originally by: Kerfira
...or you had just set autopilot to that system.... or you might have been playing drunk and fell asleep at the keyboard... or several other explanations....
They have my entire petition history right in front of them. They can see that I don't have a habit of filing frivolous petitions.
Quote:
It is the most fair policy they can have since it treats everyone equal...
No, that's why it is unfair. GMs are not allowed to use their judgement and discretion to provide a satisfactory resolution. They may as well automate the whole thing and save on staff costs.
Quote:
A firm policy also creates less load on the petition queue
Wrong. I kept the petition open for weeks going back and forth with them, trying to find out of there was any level of GM that was allowed the discretion to consider the facts of this particular case. Apparently, GMs - even senior GMs - are also not allowed to close a petition until the player agrees to close it.
I finally gave up in disgust.
Quote:
You lost a ship in an internet space game... It's not the end of the world....
You think I don't know that? Please. If it's just an internet spaceship, why not go ahead and reimburse it? It's not real. It costs CCP literally nothing. That argument works both ways.
-- He said "The President is near."
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2010.01.22 08:28:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Quote:
It is the most fair policy they can have since it treats everyone equal...
No, that's why it is unfair. GMs are not allowed to use their judgement and discretion to provide a satisfactory resolution. They may as well automate the whole thing and save on staff costs.
Quote:
A firm policy also creates less load on the petition queue
Wrong. I kept the petition open for weeks going back and forth with them, trying to find out of there was any level of GM that was allowed the discretion to consider the facts of this particular case. Apparently, GMs - even senior GMs - are also not allowed to close a petition until the player agrees to close it.
I finally gave up in disgust.
Quote:
You lost a ship in an internet space game... It's not the end of the world....
You think I don't know that? Please. If it's just an internet spaceship, why not go ahead and reimburse it? It's not real. It costs CCP literally nothing. That argument works both ways.
YOU can not see beyond your own nose... It's Me, Me, Me, ME!!!
The main problem, as I described, is that a less firm policy would open them up to endless frivolous petitions, costing CCP loads of money, and being unfair to players who don't lie.
People like you are a big part of the problem... Keeping a petition open for weeks over a bloody Falcon.... |
Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.01.22 08:51:00 -
[45]
CCP is just lazy i dont even think they actualy look in the logs..
Just ask for someone higher on the rank |
Lunatic Shakhid
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Posted - 2010.01.22 09:48:00 -
[46]
I lost a CNR on a level 3 mission some time back. I had aggroed the whole room and had enough firepower to destroy all the rats before my tank failed. Part way into the mission I was distracted by my wife who, has it turned out, wanted to make hay.
After the haymaking I returned to my command stool and thought, "what's that on my screen", only to realise it was my pod.
Can I get reimbursed too? I don't have any log of the haymaking as such, but the baby daughter's birth certificate can be backdated to prove conception during the mission. |
Trader Jen
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Posted - 2010.01.22 10:10:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ming Ping
outstanding whine post...
I'm sure REPO will miss a *pro* caliber pvper of your kind... |
Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.01.22 10:49:00 -
[48]
Op, you've had it good. Only losses to bugs and stuff.
Just wait until a gm moves you to an enemy pos, or teleports you right into the enemy fleet, and then refuses to reimburse you. Has happened to some of our members several times.
The incompetence of the Gms is absolutely staggering |
Lo3d3R
Mos Eisley Social Club
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Posted - 2010.01.22 11:17:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Lo3d3R on 22/01/2010 11:24:14
I was once camping alone in 0.0 syndicate from reblier. My alt was in HIC (Phobos) and I was in Domi TII fitted. After a while i got bored and I clicked the gate to jump to low-sec and dock to logoff. The moment I clicked on the gate the client crashed, same with the alt. When I logged back in I was podded and so was my alt. It seemed the server did not send any info (or my clients etc were bugged) on what was happening to my clients for some time, explaining why it was so quit at my gate.
I petitioned it, took my time to write trying to be thorough.
First I got the standard: We didn't find anything in our logs.
After another reply I got my ships and modules back, then I had to send one more reply to get my implants back and the cost for new clones. What also helped probaly is that the guys that shot me offered to speak on my behalf. I mean I was just sitting their and didn't shoot back or anything, quit obvious that I wasn't aware of anything.
All in all I was a happy camper. I wonder if their policy has changed, I know they are strict but if its real, its real. Maybe it also depends on how many times you ask for reimbursement. Was my first time in years.
Moral of the story, the only time you will shoot me is when something is wrong with my clients, and after that ill get my stuff back and pound you.....
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Pila Aironen
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Posted - 2010.01.22 11:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ming Ping
1. Sleipnir: some guy can flipped my and we had a fight, this all happened on a station. I couldn't win, because he had neutral repairs, so I dock up an waited till the combat aggression was gone. After the combat aggression was gone, I undock the sleipnir and get concorded. (meanwhile this guy was killed by another player) - 300 mil lose.
response GM's: Your lose got to do with combat aggression, there is not anything shown in the logs.
You don't get Concorded, you just get shot by gate guns. L2P.
Originally by: Ming Ping
2.Vargur: I was doing a mission and couldn't tank the mission. So I had to warp out. Client didn't response so I lost the ship.- 2.5 bil lose.
Response GM's: Unfortunately we couldn't find anything in our logs.
Seriously, hahahahahaha! So you had 2.5 B ISK Vargur, and you COULDN'T tank the mission and you lost it? And then you came up with this story and hoped that you would get the ship back? AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH 
Originally by: Ming Ping
3. Sleipnir: I was hanging outside the 4-4 station in Jita, while suddenly: Sleipnir - Sleipnir appears on overview. I switch to my alt and saw that Ming Ping was in a POD in front of the station. The guy who killed her was a war target in a cruiser. My other client was still online and managed to save her 3 bil ISK POD. - 400 mil lose.
Response GM's: Unfortunately we couldn't find anything in our logs.
So whatta hell you expected them to see from the logs? That you accidently UNDOCKED your Ming Ping Pong Pang Pung character?
This is GREAT EXAMPLE of the reason why petition system is so slow. It's filled with ship reimbursement petitions. I know tons of people who always petition their loss. Every single time, just like OP does. Stop spamming petitions with ship reimbursements, you screw up, adapt or die.
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Haramir Haleths
Caldari
Nutella Bande
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Posted - 2010.01.22 11:31:00 -
[51]
My cat jumped on my keyboard during a fight. This wasnt my fault. Wanna back my stuff CCP or a cry the boards |
Spurty
Caldari
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.22 12:31:00 -
[52]
My wife, cats and kids have cost me more lost isk than any Laggy battle did.
Why?
Cause when I can prepare for loss, I can mitagate the circumstances so it's easily affordble.
When a cat jumps on your keyboard decloaking you while you are on the potty or wife removes power from the cable router in another room so she can iron or your kids need a DVD put on and you walk off thinking you can get the job done before you arrive at low sec, these are the times you wish your petition would be just dealt with and no questions asked. *all of the above and Many more have happened to me and there were no logs to prove it either *
You already feel frustrated with animate objects and getting the old smoke and mirrors response about logs really pushes you over the edge. This is actually a good time to load up your fav FPS and unload both barrels on someone.
Don't come to the forums whining, it's never going to end well for you. |
Ulair Memmet
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Shadows of Light
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Posted - 2010.01.22 12:52:00 -
[53]
sad story... wanna hear mine: i once lost like a billion worth of stuff because i put it on contracts and something went wrong. the contract disappeared and the gm told me after a few chats that he couldnt reimburse me because it didnt show up in logs.
wanna know what i did?
i THANKED the gm for trying and started working my way back up.
seriously... stop whining. if you cant get over loosing stuff for no/a bad reason then you have been playing the wrong game anyway. eve is ice-cold :)
and can i have your stuff? |
Kessiaan
Minmatar
Final Agony
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Posted - 2010.01.22 13:18:00 -
[54]
4 years, only 3 ship losses?  I'm lucky if I don't go through that many in a week.
I've never had a reimbursement petition go through. I don't even try anymore, I just cross my fingers when the hamsters pick a horrible time to go on strike (like last night, was in a C3 WH solo, the 3rd wave had *just* spawned and boom. Fortunately I was lucky that time).
Every ship you fly will explode sooner or later. Don't undock with it if you don't want to risk it. |
CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.22 13:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rex Ladyhole
Edited by: Rex Ladyhole on 13/01/2010 18:49:27
Did you know that the server provides logs on golden tablets that only a GM can view inside a hat? If anyone else makes an attempt to view the server logs, the server will not reveal the golden tablets to them. If the server log needs to be reviewed, they will be different but with the same general message.
I lost my first pod in about 2 years to an ishtar that was not sensor boosting. There were traffic warnings galore and the entire server went down 5 minutes after I lost my pod. The GMs responded with the standard "our logs don't show..." I did request to view the logs, my request was denied. The only thing I can say is that the server logs do not contain enough information if they even exist.
Now this is one of those occurences where someone is 100% in their right, and you have to keep pushing your case, ask to be escalated to a senior GM, etc.
You know, when the complete cluster crashes, loads of people will appeal, and if your case is not 100% straightforward, you will be dismissed and they move on to the next problem. If however you keep bugging them ( if you are certain you are in your right, can always check the forums for some feedback first ), then it will eventually get escaleted because they are losing more time by not fixing it.
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Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.01.22 14:00:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Rex Ladyhole
Edited by: Rex Ladyhole on 13/01/2010 18:49:27
Did you know that the server provides logs on golden tablets that only a GM can view inside a hat? If anyone else makes an attempt to view the server logs, the server will not reveal the golden tablets to them. If the server log needs to be reviewed, they will be different but with the same general message.
I lost my first pod in about 2 years to an ishtar that was not sensor boosting. There were traffic warnings galore and the entire server went down 5 minutes after I lost my pod. The GMs responded with the standard "our logs don't show..." I did request to view the logs, my request was denied. The only thing I can say is that the server logs do not contain enough information if they even exist.
CCP doesn't need you to review their server logs, and noone in their right mind would show anything even remotely linked to a server-side routine to ANYONE outside developers. what's on the server stays on the server.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.01.22 14:11:00 -
[57]
I am disappointed in the eve community.
Where are all the "can I have your stuff" posts ???
Can I have your stuff ?
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Cambarus
The Compass Reloaded
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Posted - 2010.01.22 14:20:00 -
[58]
TBH whenever I get an answer I don't like I escalate the petition. The main problem with the petition system as it is is that many (I won't say most, because without a list of all of them/some of their responses it would just be me guessing) of the low-level GMs are idiots. It's genuinely depressing when I know people who've been playing eve less than a year who know more about the game than many of the GMs do.
That being said, most of the senior GMs know wtf they're talking about, and if one of them tells me there's nothing in the logs I usually believe them, but then I've gotten pretty good at guesstimating what sort of info the logs hold over the years, so I can usually guess which bug-related losses I can expect to be reimbursed for. |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
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Posted - 2010.01.22 21:31:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kerfira
YOU can not see beyond your own nose... It's Me, Me, Me, ME!!!
Of course it is. I don't file petitions for other players. Your objection is nonsense.
Quote:
For CCP it is a bigger picture that has to match.
Are you CCP staff? Why are you speaking for them?
Quote:
First of all the need to have the appearance of being non-biased and treating everyone the same (a discretion based system isn't), which they learned from the T20 incident.
That had nothing to do with player petitions.
Quote:
The main problem, as I described, is that a less firm policy would open them up to endless frivolous petitions,
They already have endless frivolous petitions. Mine wasn't one of them. You are advocating collective punishment for T20. But unless you're actually CCP staff, everything you said is supposition and imagination.
Even my freaking BANK allows support reps the discretion to refund fees, even if it was my fault. CCP is less sympathetic to their customers than a freaking BANK, ffs.
-- He said "The President is near."
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:15:00 -
[60]
Hands the op some cheese... Enjoy...
Lost a NH with complete CN fitting on it cuz i didn't pay FFING ATTENTION to what i was doing and couldn't warp out.
I didn't complain to ccp, cuz:
a. It was my own FFING fault
b. I realized ccp would just say, 'the logs they show nothing'.
c. they were right concerning b, cuz of point a.
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