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Hera Ominae
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Posted - 2010.01.12 19:54:00 -
[1]
WTF, 7 units for sale in The Forge. 199.9 M ISK each, buy orders at 170. Prices right now isn't surprise, but the units in sale is quite surprising, atleast to me 
Did ppl really cut invention this much?
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Hera Ominae
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Posted - 2010.01.15 09:18:00 -
[2]
270 reads and not a single posts... 
Seriously, is the demand for Onyx so low right now due light dictors being much more needed in warzones or wtf is going with Onyx...
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.15 09:21:00 -
[3]
I doubt MD is the best place to ask why nobody bothers using HICs in general or any of the specific HICs, but then again, I have no idea where else would be a better place.
:shrug:
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We are recruiting | Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper |
Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2010.01.15 09:23:00 -
[4]
The Jita Onyx market has been heavily controled for a few weeks now by several people. That's why you sometimes see very few units for sale. In a couple of days there will likely be 100 for sale and the price back at 160 mil for a while.
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MD stock market / Audits 001 / MD investees |
Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.01.15 09:48:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Akita T
I doubt MD is the best place to ask why nobody bothers using HICs in general or any of the specific HICs, but then again, I have no idea where else would be a better place.
:shrug:
Well, in my experience HICs are solid ships with a clear purpose.
However, any PvP gang only needs a small number of HICs compared to the number of other ships, in fact in a roaming BC/HAC gang you'll often find more logistics ships than you'll find HICs.
You'll also find that the types of gangs and types of uses for these ships is much more restricted than many other ships, not just the number employed in those gangs. You don't need HICs in light gangs (unlike must-have dictors) and while low-sec PvPers will use HICs for strong tackle under sentry fire they won't use many and they're not a must have there either. So if the primary application is in 0.0 and their greatest use is for tackling capitals, you've got to ask if maybe they aren't getting much use in that theatre at the moment.
There is also the combat durability of HICs, they are quite tough to kill when properly fit, they don't deal a great amount of DPS and therefore they are only a priority target when the tackle something significant (i.e. supercaps) so they often survive fights when their gangmates do not.
When it comes to the Onyx in particular, it's a good HIC. But I find it unsatisfactory for low-sec use because fitting a sensor booster gimps the tank a bit too much and while it's DPS at gate tackle range is pretty decent that really doesn't help you if the target gets away. For low-sec I prefer the Broadsword as a shield tanked HIC and both of the armor tanked HICs are superior for low-sec use as they have the mids for MWD, SB, injector setups. In 0.0 the balance changes and the Onyx is much more competitive, but still I personally prefer to use the Phobos and Broadsword in 0.0.
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2010.01.15 10:22:00 -
[6]
Impressive walkthrough.
It is worth noting however, that while in the past month the price exploded from 120 mil to now 200 mil, there were more than 500 units sold just in Jita. And not just sold to traders, which I should know since I don't have any units left anymore  , and my units were almost always sold one at a time.
So somebody out there are fond of them in spite of Bobby's good points.
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MD stock market / Audits 001 / MD investees |
Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.01.15 10:32:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cista2
Impressive walkthrough.
It is worth noting however, that while in the past month the price exploded from 120 mil to now 200 mil, there were more than 500 units sold just in Jita. And not just sold to traders, which I should know since I don't have any units left anymore , and my units were almost always sold one at a time.
So somebody out there are fond of them in spite of Bobby's good points.
I wasn't really saying they aren't used and I wasn't really trying to explain why they wouldn't be selling (because I know they are) I was more responding the the idea that MD might not be able to give reasons for that.
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ABC MekQuake
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Posted - 2010.01.15 12:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: ABC MekQuake on 15/01/2010 12:13:52
nm
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
United Systems Navy
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.01.15 13:22:00 -
[9]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 15/01/2010 13:23:03
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Akita T
I doubt MD is the best place to ask why nobody bothers using HICs in general or any of the specific HICs, but then again, I have no idea where else would be a better place.
:shrug:
Well, in my experience HICs are solid ships with a clear purpose.
However, any PvP gang only needs a small number of HICs compared to the number of other ships, in fact in a roaming BC/HAC gang you'll often find more logistics ships than you'll find HICs.
You'll also find that the types of gangs and types of uses for these ships is much more restricted than many other ships, not just the number employed in those gangs. You don't need HICs in light gangs (unlike must-have dictors) and while low-sec PvPers will use HICs for strong tackle under sentry fire they won't use many and they're not a must have there either. So if the primary application is in 0.0 and their greatest use is for tackling capitals, you've got to ask if maybe they aren't getting much use in that theatre at the moment.
There is also the combat durability of HICs, they are quite tough to kill when properly fit, they don't deal a great amount of DPS and therefore they are only a priority target when the tackle something significant (i.e. supercaps) so they often survive fights when their gangmates do not.
When it comes to the Onyx in particular, it's a good HIC. But I find it unsatisfactory for low-sec use because fitting a sensor booster gimps the tank a bit too much and while it's DPS at gate tackle range is pretty decent that really doesn't help you if the target gets away. For low-sec I prefer the Broadsword as a shield tanked HIC and both of the armor tanked HICs are superior for low-sec use as they have the mids for MWD, SB, injector setups. In 0.0 the balance changes and the Onyx is much more competitive, but still I personally prefer to use the Phobos and Broadsword in 0.0.
A few hics? In a roaming gang, 1 hic is pretty much max, and interdictors still do a far better job at tackling fleets than a hic ever will. Hics are for gatecamping and long range stops, dics are for everything else. And even a hics tank melts against fire from a few battlecruisers and hacs.
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Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Hera Ominae
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Posted - 2010.01.15 22:53:00 -
[10]
Yeah it's quite obvious now..
Been scanning other regions too and there is some heavy manipulation going on.
Anyway, yes HICs are used alot and they are great. But you don't use them to bubble enemy sniping fleet. You use them to bubble the gates and Titans/moms.
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alticulate
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Posted - 2010.01.16 15:06:00 -
[11]
No manipulation, I think .. I have a HIC BPC (Phobos) at ME -5 that still has a couple runs left on it. Before Dominion it cost about 95M ISK to build a ship from it. I priced out the cost to build and it's now between 200M & 220M.
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Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
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Posted - 2010.01.16 19:39:00 -
[12]
In a related note, for a good laugh take a look at contracts. Plenty of people are inventing -4 ME cruiser hulls and then expecting to get ISK for a print that loses money -- it'd be more profitable to sell the components to buy orders in Jita. And in the case of Amarr armor plates, reprocess them before sale.
Even without competition from BPOs, HICs have been low profit to manufacture since pretty much day 1. Considering the cruiser construction V (IIRC) needed to bake them I really do wonder who bothers producing them.
Speaking for myself: I've completely stopped t2 hull invention. The wild swings in material costs post Dominion make it hard to justify the risk of tying up several B for days at a time during manufacture and sales. There are many more productive areas to put that money to work.
With titans no longer blowing up hundreds of ships in one keystroke people are switching to non-DD proof, rigless T1 battleships for blobbing work. The market for t2 hulls is getting very, very soft.
And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
waferzankko
The Maverick Navy
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.16 20:19:00 -
[13]
the onyx is the best of the hics, and it is no surprise that the market gods would know about this and rase its price over the other lower hic's out of respect for the onyx, man may try and understand the ways of the gods but it is something that we may never understand.
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Gizan
Gods Killing Machines
Ihatalo Cartel Navy
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Posted - 2010.01.17 06:45:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Gizan on 17/01/2010 06:46:27
ya im sorry but as the number cruncher that i am, i had to do the numbers on the onyx, since i use them, and i was interested.
if i build everything myself.
___________with me -3____________me -4
build cost 153,050,000___________163,600,000
if i buy it off market
___________with me -3____________me -4
build cost 185,000,000___________197,800,000
since i didnt see any bpc's that were better then me -3 i didnt do the numbers on them.
this price does not include the bpc/invention or manufacturing slots/time
(these were made with jita prices at 2010.01.17 06:45:04 eve time.)
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Jadal McPieksu
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Posted - 2010.01.17 11:02:00 -
[15]
So, the 200mil a ship seems like a fair price.
The problem with the T2 ship market right now is this;
- The bill of materials for some T2 ships/components were announced to be changed by quite a bit in Dominion
- Some idiots did a bunch of math based on old material prices and proclaimed "yay, this is going to make ships cheaper" while happily ignoring the volumes of materials required.
- Participants in the material supply chain did some real math, figured out that some materials would spike in price and some (prom, dyspro) would tank due to changing demand in volume.
- Previously expensive materials tanked in preparation for the patch as prom/dyspro hoarders dumped their stock.
- Ships got (temporarily) cheaper as the material changes were not yet live but the previously expensive materials went down in price by a lot.
Clueless players rejoiced! Cheaper T2!
Then Dominion arrived and the changes went live.
Now you truly did need less of R64 materials to build T2, but at the same time the demands for many previously cheap materials shot up. So, the story continues...
- Price goes with the demand - there simply wasn't enough of the "cheap" stuff being mined/reacted to reflect the new demand.
- Technetium also spikes due to speculation as "Common wisdom" says it is the new bottleneck. The price spike temporarily slows down the production of components derived out of tech ("I'm not gonna pay *that* much for the raw materials" to make these bits).
- Prices for many materials required for T2 components shoot up as demand outstrips the supply. Builders have to update their complex spreadsheets daily to see what is worth building and what isn't.
That is now where we are today. T2 ship consumers scream "WTF ship prices are going up like nuts. I'm not buying" while at the same time T2 builders are going "WTF if I run the spreadsheet, it says I'll make a loss if I build this ship".
The days of "cheap" T2 ships is over. The final word on "right" price for T2 ships is yet to be seen, but I doubt we'll see sub-100mil HACs anytime soon (if ever). The key bit is that the raw volume of low end moongoo-derived "stuff" required to build one ship went up and each unit of moongoo-derived products has to be mined off a moon, reacted to simple reactions, reacted to complex reactions and built to T2 components in factories. So you need more towers mining and reacting previously "worthless" stuff. Even if the moongoo demands are spread out better so a couple of R64 materials are no longer the bottleneck, someone has to do all that reacting, hauling and building and as everyone wants their share of the ISK...
And so we get... more expensive T2 ships. Not terribly more expensive than before the changes were announced, but definitely more expensive than during the funny times when old bill of materials was required, yet the high end material prices were depressed as stocks were dumped.
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