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HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2010.01.28 12:02:00 -
[1]
All turret races have the close-combat weapons. Autocannons, Blasters and Pulse Lasers. All turret races may use the cheating modules "tracking enhancer" and "tracking computer" making their ships able to deliver DPS a LOT farther. E.g. Vagabond or hurricane with 50km faloff or Apoc with 90km range of pulse lasers and so on.
And what is the range of Caldari "close weapons"? 18km in perfect for the HAMs and Torpedoes without ship bonuses. I'm not even whispering about rockets. This is absolutely inacceptable situation, when piece of scrap, called Tempest, is penetrating shields of glorious caldari battleships from 80 kilometres with autocannons!
Me on behalf of the all true Caldari demands the military scientists immediately invent the following:
Brand new full metal shiny module called Missile Navigation Computer that will bring the 7,5% to the missile speed, 15% to the missile flight time and 15% to the missile explosion radius. Scripts for flight time and explosion radius.
Brand new full metal shiny module called Missile Navigation Enhancer that will bring the 15% to the missile speed, 30% to the missile flight time and 9,5% to the missile explosion speed.
And these modules must affect all missiles.
All our brothers in arms, even if they belongs to other race should definitely support this call.
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CePoBoDopoD
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Posted - 2010.01.28 12:05:00 -
[2]
Support this topic
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Storm Templar
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.01.28 12:41:00 -
[3]
No! No flavours.
Missiles always hit, have ridiculous range, can choose damage type to hit resist holes, can't be disrupted or jammed (FoF, it sucks but a chance at hitting something is still better than hitting nothing).
Keep the weapons different. Do not try to vanilla-lise them. I might as well suggest a guidance system jammer/EWAR module that only applies to missiles. Say reducing flight time and a chance at missing the target altogether?
Have you ever been cursed with Blasters? Now them boys have got it bad, while you be tearing their armour away in your Raven 20-25kms away while they try to hit you ineffectually
Although I'll agree that rocket needs work and that all missile should have their flight time halved and their speed doubled. ________________________________________________ For the Immortal God-Emperor.....ooops, wrong universe. |
Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.28 12:42:00 -
[4]
No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'
Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.
Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.28 13:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'
Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.
Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.
This.
Not supported. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
Ni'ka
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Posted - 2010.01.28 13:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Storm Templar
Missiles always hit
You ever hear about explosion velocity and signature radius?? Yes, they hit, but for a damage you can die from laugh on Caldari.
Quote: have ridiculous range
yeah, unbonused Amarr missile boats can hit at rediculos 20km. 30km For Topr on raven, and 250 for Cruise. But Rokh can shoot at *SURPRISE* 250km.
Quote: can choose damage type to hit resist holes
Caldari ships mostly have Kinetic missile damage bonus. and mostly resist holes equal to lost bonus damage, so there is no diference, unless Caldaki will have bonus damage to ALL miseles, or as for Amarr, no bonus at all.
Quote: can't be disrupted or jammed (FoF, it sucks but a chance at hitting something is still better than hitting nothing).
Since then jamming not affecting missile ships?? First you need to switch to FoF, and back for normals then jam is over. and this takes at least 20 seconds.
And mostly use of FoF make no difference at all.
+only "Guided" missiles have FoFs. making only half of weapons affacted by this. + There is defender missiles (but they shouls be ovehauled too) and smartbombs, that kills missiles.
Quote:
Keep the weapons different. Do not try to vanilla-lise them. I might as well suggest a guidance system jammer/EWAR module that only applies to missiles. Say reducing flight time and a chance at missing the target altogether?
Yes, that's why all missile weapons \ countering should be overhauled.
Quote:
Have you ever been cursed with Blasters? Now them boys have got it bad, while you be tearing their armour away in your Raven 20-25kms away while they try to hit you ineffectually
Have you ever heard of Null ammo ??
Rokh with Nulls have 17+16km range Megathron 11+16 without and traking modes.
Quote:
Although I'll agree that rocket needs work
Yes
Quote: and that all missile should have their flight time halved and their speed doubled.
No
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.28 13:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ni'ka
You ever hear about explosion velocity and signature radius?? Yes, they hit, but for a damage you can die from laugh on Caldari.
This is true. But some damage is better than no damage. In fact... missile ships are the bane of most speed tankers.
Quote:
yeah, unbonused Amarr missile boats can hit at rediculos 20km. 30km For Topr on raven, and 250 for Cruise. But Rokh can shoot at *SURPRISE* 250km.
Congrats, but can a Rokh hit for the same damage at 250km as it can at 60km? Didn't think so.
Quote:
Caldari ships mostly have Kinetic missile damage bonus. and mostly resist holes equal to lost bonus damage, so there is no diference, unless Caldaki will have bonus damage to ALL miseles, or as for Amarr, no bonus at all.
Derp, ROF bonus is just as good, if not better than damage bonus.
Quote:
Since then jamming not affecting missile ships?? First you need to switch to FoF, and back for normals then jam is over. and this takes at least 20 seconds.
And mostly use of FoF make no difference at all.
+only "Guided" missiles have FoFs. making only half of weapons affacted by this. + There is defender missiles (but they shouls be ovehauled too) and smartbombs, that kills missiles.
Boy I wish I had FOF ammo for my laser, hybrid and projectile weapons. You have to be pretty pro to hit missile volleys with smartbombs and outside of Caps who fits them now?
Quote: Yes, that's why all missile weapons \ countering should be overhauled.
Missiles are fine.
Quote:
Have you ever heard of Null ammo ??
Rokh with Nulls have 17+16km range Megathron 11+16 without and traking modes.
Cool story bro. A Mega does less than half damage at the same range a Raven does full damage.
If turret users max out their support skills they get AT MOST an extra 25% range out of their guns. If Missile users max out theirs then they get 100% extra range. Am I complaining? No.
They are two completely different weapon systems. Missiles can do some things guns can't and guns can do some things missiles can't.
Live with it princess.
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HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2010.01.28 14:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Quote:
Have you ever heard of Null ammo ??
Rokh with Nulls have 17+16km range Megathron 11+16 without and traking modes.
Cool story bro. A Mega does less than half damage at the same range a Raven does full damage.
Full damage!? ROFL! Mega can reduce the torpedoe damage for at least 30% by just moving around. Stop discussing ships you never flew.
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
If turret users max out their support skills they get AT MOST an extra 25% range out of their guns. If Missile users max out theirs then they get 100% extra range. Am I complaining? No.
They are two completely different weapon systems. Missiles can do some things guns can't and guns can do some things missiles can't.
Live with it princess.
Turret parametres can be modified by modules, but launchers - not. It is unhonest.
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Ni'ka
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Posted - 2010.01.28 14:47:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ni''ka on 28/01/2010 14:48:48
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer In fact... missile ships are the bane of most speed tankers.
haven't noticed that. To do accepeble damage to a speed tanker, you need to neut and web him. Same will work fine for turret ships.
Quote:
Congrats, but can a Rokh hit for the same damage at 250km as it can at 60km? Didn't think so.
You still missing point. At 60km Rokh damage MORE then Raven at 200, but and 200 abit less. So it's still something in between.
Quote: Derp, ROF bonus is just as good, if not better than damage bonus.
yes. That's why i see so many Uber-Leet-Non-caldari-missile-Ships... Oh wait.
There is sacrilege, it's sooooo used ove Zealot. Maybe Vengeance ?? No. Assaults are rarely uset especially this cruel joke of nature. Mayby Huginn \ Typhoon?? But Matari ust have split systems, not specialized, so mostly using both equally. Lachesis! mmm still as pipular as Sacrilege. Legion with missile system ?? but T3 ships in PvP a quite rare, especially this config.
Am i missing sometning ?? Naglfar ! but there is no missile bonus now, so it's just some extra DPS on those launchers, not main heapon to play with.
Quote: Missiles are fine.
Scissors: "Paper is fine, nerf rock"
Typical turret user.
Quote:
Cool story bro. A Mega does less than half damage at the same range a Raven does full damage.
1) And torps do less damage then you move faster then 106 m\s (that's for perfect raven) and even 91m\s for Rage torps, so he need to web you to do FULL damage.
2) Missiles hit for FIXED damage, turrets can crit. Closer to your optimal - more damage. So if you get in your optimal, you do MORE damage ?? NERF turrets!
Quote:
If turret users max out their support skills they get AT MOST an extra 25% range out of their guns. If Missile users max out theirs then they get 100% extra range. Am I complaining? No.
You have long range ammo. Live with it princess.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.01.28 14:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'
Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.
Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.
not supported.
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NoOne Seeko
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Posted - 2010.01.28 14:50:00 -
[11]
Edited by: NoOne Seeko on 28/01/2010 14:51:34 If such modules gonna be created then current default range of missiles has to be lowered. And I believe you won't like it. |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.01.28 14:54:00 -
[12]
Makes perfect sense.
Fitting a Missile Enhancer [Low slot] would be a choice that probably would mean losing a bcu.
Fitting a Missile tracking computer , would mean no tank or no tackle.
So overall these modules would no make missiles op as many of the gun firing detractors knee jerk reactions would seem to suggest.
More options for adjusting the performance of missile boats would be good. better hit comes at the price of raw damage or tank.
and ahem , defenders are the equiv of tracking disruptors , if you dont fit them then stop complaining , and yes they are crap so complain about getting them fixed rather than spouting we dont have missile disrupters.
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Alpha195
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:12:00 -
[13]
supported as long as you mean 15% reduction in explosion radius and 9.5% increase in explosion speed
and yes, i do think that missiles need flight time halved and velocity doubled
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Fengo Marr
Tenacious Tendencies
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'
Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.
Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.
Not supported, see above. |
Spins Meats
RagingFist
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dav Varan
and ahem , defenders are the equiv of tracking disruptors , if you dont fit them then stop complaining , and yes they are crap so complain about getting them fixed rather than spouting we dont have missile disrupters.
Can you fit a tracking disruptor on a Raven? Yes. Can you fit defender missiles to a Dominix? No.
There are no missile disruptors.
OP - I'd support this if the existing ranges of guided and unguided missiles were nerfed commensurately. As it stands, you have to fit TEs at the expense of damage mods to make blasters useful, even WITH null (hint: null buys range at the expense of tracking), so it's a bit hard to feel sympathy for HAM/torp users who want to be able to boost their already significant range advantage.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:24:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Dav Varan on 28/01/2010 15:25:34
Originally by: Spins Meats
Originally by: Dav Varan
and ahem , defenders are the equiv of tracking disruptors , if you dont fit them then stop complaining , and yes they are crap so complain about getting them fixed rather than spouting we dont have missile disrupters.
Can you fit a tracking disruptor on a Raven? Yes. Can you fit defender missiles to a Dominix? No.
There are no missile disruptors.
OP - I'd support this if the existing ranges of guided and unguided missiles were nerfed commensurately. As it stands, you have to fit TEs at the expense of damage mods to make blasters useful, even WITH null (hint: null buys range at the expense of tracking), so it's a bit hard to feel sympathy for HAM/torp users who want to be able to boost their already significant range advantage.
Well thats one of the issues with defenders isnt it, you need to use a missile hardpoint. They should probably have a dedicated launcher , much like the probe launchers that dont take up a missile hardpoint.
Back to the op and requireing a nerf to justify the extra mods is just stupid reasoning. The op is talking about fitting choices.
Fitting a missile enhancer means using a slot that is currently used for something else. So no nerf is needed , a player fitting a low slot missile enhancer would lose dps much like the way a gun pilot fitting a te losing dps by losing a heat sink/gyro/mag stab.
There are no extra slots to fit the OP requested mods.
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Spins Meats
RagingFist
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Back to the op and requireing a nerf to justify the extra mods is just stupid reasoning. The op is talking about fitting choices.
Fitting a missile enhancer means using a slot that is currently used for something else. So no nerf is needed , a player fitting a low slot missile enhancer would lose dps much like the way a gun pilot fitting a te losing dps.
OP was saying that guns are overpowered compared to missiles because of TEs, and thats why 'missile enhancers' are needed. Missiles are not guns, and if you want one of the flexibility advantages of guns (ability to fit a module to change engagement profile slightly), then missiles need to be rebalanced around that.
Besides, there's already Bay Thruster rigs which provide the flight time/velocity bonus, and painters which provide the same benefit as an explosion velocity bonus (in reverse), but for everyone in your gang.
Seems to me that guns and missiles are balanced, just different.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Spins Meats
Originally by: Dav Varan
Back to the op and requireing a nerf to justify the extra mods is just stupid reasoning. The op is talking about fitting choices.
Fitting a missile enhancer means using a slot that is currently used for something else. So no nerf is needed , a player fitting a low slot missile enhancer would lose dps much like the way a gun pilot fitting a te losing dps.
OP was saying that guns are overpowered compared to missiles because of TEs, and thats why 'missile enhancers' are needed. Missiles are not guns, and if you want one of the flexibility advantages of guns (ability to fit a module to change engagement profile slightly), then missiles need to be rebalanced around that.
Besides, there's already Bay Thruster rigs which provide the flight time/velocity bonus, and painters which provide the same benefit as an explosion velocity bonus (in reverse), but for everyone in your gang.
Seems to me that guns and missiles are balanced, just different.
Rigs are neither here nor there , there are plenty of choices in rigs for both guns and missiles. Painters effect the sig radius stat of the enemy ship , they have no effect on explosion velocity which is the missile equiv of tracking.
There would be no need for missile rebalncing because were talking about choices made at fitting time. explosion vcelocity can be improved with this mods, but something has to be given away at fitting time thats where the rebalancing occurs.
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ni'ka
haven't noticed that. To do accepeble damage to a speed tanker, you need to neut and web him. Same will work fine for turret ships.
Derp, it helps to catch them first. Many a time I've engaged a competant cruise raven or HML drake in my Vaga and had to fly away whereas turret ships would have been ineffectually missing me all day.
Quote:
You still missing point. At 60km Rokh damage MORE then Raven at 200, but and 200 abit less. So it's still something in between.
Just pulled up EFT. All level 5. Raven with 3 damage mods and faction cruise: 518 DPS@253k Rokh with 425mm II and 3 damage mods: 553 DPS@ 54+ 30 320 DPS at 194+30. Hardly a bit less and the Raven still has 2 utility highs/turret slots and a bigger drone bay.
Quote:
yes. That's why i see so many Uber-Leet-Non-caldari-missile-Ships... Oh wait.
There is sacrilege, it's sooooo used ove Zealot. Maybe Vengeance ?? No. Assaults are rarely uset especially this cruel joke of nature. Mayby Huginn \ Typhoon?? But Matari ust have split systems, not specialized, so mostly using both equally. Lachesis! mmm still as pipular as Sacrilege. Legion with missile system ?? but T3 ships in PvP a quite rare, especially this config.
Am i missing sometning ?? Naglfar ! but there is no missile bonus now, so it's just some extra DPS on those launchers, not main heapon to play with.
I see plenty of Sacs. It's just that most Amarr players haven't trained missiles and the Zealot has more utility in a lot of Snipe Hac gangs (hence you also see more Eagles than Cerbs, get over it). I don't really see what your point is. Yes some other ships have missiles as their secondary weapon system and recieve an approapriate bonus to it. As I said, 5% ROF bonus gives you more DPS than a 5% Damage bonus.
Quote:
Scissors: "Paper is fine, nerf rock"
Typical turret user.
Actually kiddo you can check my killboard. I've probably lost more missile ships than you've had hot dinners.
Quote:
1) And torps do less damage then you move faster then 106 m\s (that's for perfect raven) and even 91m\s for Rage torps, so he need to web you to do FULL damage.
2) Missiles hit for FIXED damage, turrets can crit. Closer to your optimal - more damage. So if you get in your optimal, you do MORE damage ?? NERF turrets!
Irrelevant. Turrets won't hit a moving target with transversal as well or even at all. Turrets can also 'glance' a target for less damage. Boost turrets!
Quote:
You have long range ammo. Live with it princess.
So do you.
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Theac Osiris
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.01.28 15:58:00 -
[20]
No. Missiles are not turrets, and turrets are not missiles. They need to be distinct. I agree that some missile types, especially roflkets, need an overhaul, and perhaps do more paper DPS than turrets at the cost of not applying full damage to your typical target without webbing and target painting. This, however, is not the way to do it.
______________________________________________ Missions. They're like mining, but with guns. |
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Ni'ka
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Posted - 2010.01.28 17:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Derp, it helps to catch them first. Many a time I've engaged a competant cruise raven or HML drake in my Vaga and had to fly away whereas turret ships would have been ineffectually missing me all day.
LOL! That's defenetly a point... BS > HAC, BC > HAC. Problem is not in missiles, it's still fitting.
Quote: Just pulled up EFT.
Oh wait, is there something missing on Rokh ?? damage bonus! Comparing to +5% ROF on raven... Checked others ??
Apoc having 700Dps on 60km and 400 at 200 ??
Quote:
I see plenty of Sacs. It's just that most Amarr players haven't trained missiles and the Zealot has more utility in a lot of Snipe Hac gangs
exactly... there is no point in training missile line just for one ship... there must be real reason for that.
Quote:
(hence you also see more Eagles than Cerbs, get over it).
yes, coz Cerbs are inferior comparing to eagle in terms of long range shooting. And people use mostly more effective ships.
Quote:
I don't really see what your point is. Yes some other ships have missiles as their secondary weapon system and recieve an approapriate bonus to it. As I said, 5% ROF bonus gives you more DPS than a 5% Damage bonus.
Point is that most of Caldari missile ships have KINETIC DAMAGE bonus, not ROF.
Yes, rof is better, i agree, give Caldari RoF bonus instead of kinetic
Quote:
Actually kiddo you can check my killboard. I've probably lost more missile ships than you've had hot dinners.
Checked. 0 kills 1 pod loss.
Quote:
Irrelevant. Turrets won't hit a moving target with transversal as well or even at all. Turrets can also 'glance' a target for less damage. Boost turrets!
Sure. Learn to control your ship to affect transversal, not just press F1 F2 F3.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.28 17:54:00 -
[22]
The only module i would support is improvement to explosion radius and maybe flight speed, however stats yoy are suggesting are rediculously broken.
Quote: 15% to the missile speed, 30% to the missile flight time an
that would result in increasing missile range by 50%. Can i please have a magic nuke that kills people from the different end of a solar system?
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.28 18:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ni'ka
LOL! That's defenetly a point... BS > HAC, BC > HAC. Problem is not in missiles, it's still fitting.
Regardless, missile ships are much better suited to driving off speed tanked ships. I was just throwing that out as an example.
Quote:
Oh wait, is there something missing on Rokh ?? damage bonus! Comparing to +5% ROF on raven... Checked others ??
Apoc having 700Dps on 60km and 400 at 200 ??
Raven has 7.5 effective missile launchers, Rokh has 8 effective turrets, I don't see the issue. As for lazors. Well, they are in need of a bit of a nerf IMHO but also eat up cap, regardless that 400 DPS at 200 KM is still less than the Raven and nobody fits 8 tach Apocs anyway.
Quote:
exactly... there is no point in training missile line just for one ship... there must be real reason for that.
It's not that their's no point. People have the option and plenty take it. It's just that 'traditionally' missile skills and Amarr don't go well together. QQ more.
Quote:
yes, coz Cerbs are inferior comparing to eagle in terms of long range shooting. And people use mostly more effective ships.
Baww? Range on the Cerb is a non issue for a start. Seeing as you are not advocating instant hit missiles I think we'll let your obvious statement pass. There are plenty of occassions where you WOULD fly a Cerb over an Eagle.
Quote:
Point is that most of Caldari missile ships have KINETIC DAMAGE bonus, not ROF.
Yes, rof is better, i agree, give Caldari RoF bonus instead of kinetic
Most do and Kinetic is one of the better damages to have a bonus on. It's a bone of contention of mine though and not the issue at hand.
Quote:
Checked. 0 kills 1 pod loss.
Hi, you must be new around here.
Quote:
Sure. Learn to control your ship to affect transversal, not just press F1 F2 F3.
Yes, you go ahead and do that.
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Ni'ka
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:06:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Ni''ka on 28/01/2010 19:06:19
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Regardless, missile ships are much better suited to driving off speed tanked ships. I was just throwing that out as an example.
And Turret deal instant damage on range. I can live with both.
Quote: Raven has 7.5 effective missile launchers, Rokh has 8 effective turrets, I don't see the issue. As for lazors. Well, they are in need of a bit of a nerf IMHO but also eat up cap, regardless that 400 DPS at 200 KM is still less than the Raven and nobody fits 8 tach Apocs anyway.
More lolz. If YOU don't fit them, dosn't mean noone does.
Quote: It's not that their's no point. People have the option and plenty take it. It's just that 'traditionally' missile skills and Amarr don't go well together. QQ more.
All i see is you QQing. With no thinking out of straight lines. Sad.
Quote: Baww? Range on the Cerb is a non issue for a start. Seeing as you are not advocating instant hit missiles I think we'll let your obvious statement pass. There are plenty of occassions where you WOULD fly a Cerb over an Eagle.
No, i won't. Flyed all hacs, and cerb is last in line i would take into combat.
Quote: Most do and Kinetic is one of the better damages to have a bonus on.
No it's not.
Quote:
Hi, you must be new around here.
http://www.nspta.net/lacon/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=2539
Isn't that you ??
Quote: Yes, you go ahead and do that.
I can do that already.
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HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:10:00 -
[25]
Rokh is the worst sniper ship in eve regardless of it "overgrid" fire range.
About 400dps at 250 kilometres: missile speed is 7850m/s, so it will take 32 seconds to deliver 2900 points of damage.
Lets take a spherical battle where apoc fighting against raven at 190km snipe-range.
Raven: 190000/7850=24.2seconds to deliver first 2900 damage. Apoc has instant damage delivery, so we dividing Raven's delivery time with ROF and multiplying with volley damage: 24.2/7.31*2287=7571.2
And, just to make clear that Caldari sucks, we bring here the Rokh: 24.2/5.86*1597=6595 (15% less damage, 25% less tracking speed than Apoc at the same range)
All three battleships have 2 damage mods and 190km optimal range, skills are "All-V".
At last you can see that turret platform has at least 3700 points of damage leg-up against missile boats at 190km range.
If there will be ten Ravens against 10 Apocs at 190km range, then three of them will pop before their missiles will reach the target.
So shut up all of you whining that missiles must be left intact.
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE Rokh is the worst sniper ship in eve regardless of it "overgrid" fire range.
About 400dps at 250 kilometres: missile speed is 7850m/s, so it will take 32 seconds to deliver 2900 points of damage.
Lets take a spherical battle where apoc fighting against raven at 190km snipe-range.
Raven: 190000/7850=24.2seconds to deliver first 2900 damage. Apoc has instant damage delivery, so we dividing Raven's delivery time with ROF and multiplying with volley damage: 24.2/7.31*2287=7571.2
And, just to make clear that Caldari sucks, we bring here the Rokh: 24.2/5.86*1597=6595 (15% less damage, 25% less tracking speed than Apoc at the same range)
All three battleships have 2 damage mods and 190km optimal range, skills are "All-V".
At last you can see that turret platform has at least 3700 points of damage leg-up against missile boats at 190km range.
If there will be ten Ravens against 10 Apocs at 190km range, then three of them will pop before their missiles will reach the target.
So shut up all of you whining that missiles must be left intact.
All very good. Now compare 10 Torp Ravens to 10 Megapulse Apocs at 10km and the situation is very different.
Horses for courses. Caldari have a long range option for BS slug fests (two in fact). If you are unhappy with the performance of Rails then train lasers or projectiles. It's that simple.
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CATYPH
Space Plague SOLAR WING
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:17:00 -
[27]
Edited by: CATYPH on 28/01/2010 19:17:53
Originally by: HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE All turret races have the close-combat weapons. Autocannons, Blasters and Pulse Lasers. All turret races may use the cheating modules "tracking enhancer" and "tracking computer" making their ships able to deliver DPS a LOT farther. E.g. Vagabond or hurricane with 50km faloff or Apoc with 90km range of pulse lasers and so on.
And what is the range of Caldari "close weapons"? 18km in perfect for the HAMs and Torpedoes without ship bonuses. I'm not even whispering about rockets. This is absolutely inacceptable situation, when piece of scrap, called Tempest, is penetrating shields of glorious caldari battleships from 80 kilometres with autocannons!
Me on behalf of the all true Caldari demands the military scientists immediately invent the following:
Brand new full metal shiny module called Missile Navigation Computer that will bring the 7,5% to the missile speed, 15% to the missile flight time and 15% to the missile explosion radius. Scripts for flight time and explosion radius.
Brand new full metal shiny module called Missile Navigation Enhancer that will bring the 15% to the missile speed, 30% to the missile flight time and 9,5% to the missile explosion speed.
And these modules must affect all missiles.
All our brothers in arms, even if they belongs to other race should definitely support this call.
Support this topic
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.28 20:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 28/01/2010 20:17:21
Originally by: Theac Osiris No. Missiles are not turrets, and turrets are not missiles. They need to be distinct. I agree that some missile types, especially roflkets, need an overhaul, and perhaps do more paper DPS than turrets at the cost of not applying full damage to your typical target without webbing and target painting. This, however, is not the way to do it.
This.
Originally by: HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE Rokh is the worst sniper ship in eve regardless of it "overgrid" fire range.
About 400dps at 250 kilometres: missile speed is 7850m/s, so it will take 32 seconds to deliver 2900 points of damage.
Lets take a spherical battle where apoc fighting against raven at 190km snipe-range.
Raven: 190000/7850=24.2seconds to deliver first 2900 damage. Apoc has instant damage delivery, so we dividing Raven's delivery time with ROF and multiplying with volley damage: 24.2/7.31*2287=7571.2
And, just to make clear that Caldari sucks, we bring here the Rokh: 24.2/5.86*1597=6595 (15% less damage, 25% less tracking speed than Apoc at the same range)
All three battleships have 2 damage mods and 190km optimal range, skills are "All-V".
At last you can see that turret platform has at least 3700 points of damage leg-up against missile boats at 190km range.
If there will be ten Ravens against 10 Apocs at 190km range, then three of them will pop before their missiles will reach the target.
So shut up all of you whining that missiles must be left intact.
Well yeah, missiles make crappy sniper ships. Nobody is disputing that. I hear that if you put up 10 Apocs against 10 Charons, you can really massacre Caldari ships. Thing is, what you propose wouldn't actually change any of this in any way. So, um...good for you?
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steave435
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.29 09:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ni'ka
You have long range ammo. Live with it princess.
So do you. They're called javelins, and let your torps hit at 45km. If you're gonna let the mega use null in your above example, you should have the raven use javelin aswell, and we're back where we started.
Quote: Raven has 7.5 effective missile launchers, Rokh has 8 effective turrets, I don't see the issue. As for lazors. Well, they are in need of a bit of a nerf IMHO but also eat up cap, regardless that 400 DPS at 200 KM is still less than the Raven and nobody fits 8 tach Apocs anyway.
Erm, yes they do.
I do think caldari suck, but it's not because of these reasons. 1. Close range missile systems are fine, BUT, the close range caldari ships pretty much have something else they're lacking. For SR hacs, they're slow, for RR BS gangs, 3/4 races are perfect for armour tank while the last can make do as it while only 2/4 can shield tank well, and the others simply can't pull it off. Therefore, RR BS gangs always rely on armour, where caldari can just barely make do (before you mention it, yes, the drake can be fitted to be very effective at close range, but even that roughly matches the other racial BCs). Even if you do manage to get a pure minmatar/caldari gang, tackle is an issue.
2. For long range, rails simply don't put out enough dps to be as effective as other races, and when sniping, you generally need to be able to kill a target QUICK before he has time to realize he's being targeted and warp out, so missiles don't work for 2 reasons: 1) If you shoot the primary, it will be dead/warped out before you hit and 2) if you shoot the secondary, they get an advance warning that they'll soon be primary and can warp out before all the turret BS that really can kill him before he can warp locks.
So, what can be done? Well, for close range, XL shield extenders to match the 1600mm plates would free up slots for tackle. For long range, the only thing I can really see working is to greatly reduce flight time, but in return boost velocity so that range stays about the same. That way missiles will be able to deliver the quick damage that is required for that gang type, and the thing making them different would instead be the tracking system. Caldari can't really change their chance of hitting or how much damage they do, but they can do damage to targets that turret ships of their class can't track at all. In return, if the turret ship maneuvers properly, it can get in a position where it does full damage against that moving target while the missile ship still get a reduction.
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crimson fire
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Posted - 2010.01.29 10:54:00 -
[30]
Have you lost your marbles?
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Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari BAHRAM Military
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Posted - 2010.01.29 14:04:00 -
[31]
If missiles get a tracking enhancer I want a missile tracking disruptor on a medium slot.
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Smartus Maximus
Gallente Somali Coastguard Authority
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Posted - 2010.01.29 14:05:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'
Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.
Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.
That.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.01.29 14:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sepheir Sepheron If missiles get a tracking enhancer I want a missile tracking disruptor on a medium slot.
Thats fine as long as we also get a high slot turret hardpointed , "point defence system" that can shoot railgun charges , projectiles and lasers outof the air before they hit my ship.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.01.29 14:22:00 -
[34]
oh you mean those lol useless defenders? when did you see the last person that fitted defenders and survived?
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Smartus Maximus
Gallente Somali Coastguard Authority
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Posted - 2010.01.29 15:57:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Smartus Maximus on 29/01/2010 15:57:39
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Sepheir Sepheron If missiles get a tracking enhancer I want a missile tracking disruptor on a medium slot.
Thats fine as long as we also get a high slot turret hardpointed , "point defence system" that can shoot railgun charges , projectiles and lasers outof the air before they hit my ship.
lol, okay. If you really want it, we'll grant you that useless piece of crap.
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.29 17:36:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dav Varan
>implying defender missiles are used
Sure go for it.
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Kairum
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Posted - 2010.02.03 03:55:00 -
[37]
No.
Even from a sci-fi point of view it doesnt make much sense to have a module located on your ship that increases the tracking of a missile that you already fired and is in space moving toward its target. Target painters already have the role of aiding in the successful guidance of your missile from bay to target.
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Doctor Aibolit
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Posted - 2010.02.03 05:10:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Doctor Aibolit on 03/02/2010 05:14:44 No. Absolutely crazy idea.
Not all turret races can cheat with "tracking computer" Raven + 6xSiege II + Javelin + 3DamagMods - 743DPS at 45km Abaddon + 8xPulseII + Scorch + 3DamagMods + 2TrackingComp (optimal script) - 920DPS at 58км + 16km falloff Maelstrom + 8x800mm AC II + Barrage + 3DamagMods + 2TrackingComp (optimal script) - 700DPS at 7.8км + 59km falloff Hyperion + 8xNeutronII + Null + 3DamagMods + 2TrackingComp (optimal script) - 852DPS at 15km + 26km falloff Max DPS: Raven - 743DPS at 45km Abaddon - 920DPS at 58км Maelstrom - 700DPS at 7.8км Hyperion - 852DPS at 15km DPS at 45km: Raven - 743DPS Abaddon - 920DPS Maelstrom - 470DPS Hyperion - 230DPS
It looks like at least large close missile weapon (torpedo) is not so bad without "tracking enhancer and tracking computer for missiles". I see only 2 things: Lasers are overpowered, blasters suck (even with range upgrades it is extremely close weapon with medium damage)
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.02.03 17:10:00 -
[39]
if you want to compare ships maybe compare ships of the same tier. for amarr, gallente and minmatar you used tier 3 but used tier 2 for caldari.
and i would like to see abaddons and hyperions with 3 dmg mods and still having a reasonable tank.
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.02.04 04:42:00 -
[40]
Ok, I was going to post something negative on this idea, but you had me with the propa-speak and Russian-accent typing (or, if you want, Ukrainian). Bravo! Next we nerf Moose and Squirrel!
On to useful comments:
As other respondents have pointed out, any modules that increase the attribute of missiles need to come with their concurrent EWAR counters. The way the races are distributed I'm not sure who you would "assign" such technology to, but for lore purposes I guess it just be invented by Gallente scientists or something.
In the interest of fairness, it should be pointed out that there *IS* a module that (effectively) boosts missile explosion radius and velocity: it's called a "Target Painter"--you just use it on the enemy ship, rather than your own.
--Krum --Krum |
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Doctor Aibolit
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Posted - 2010.02.05 02:36:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Doctor Aibolit on 05/02/2010 02:40:35 Edited by: Doctor Aibolit on 05/02/2010 02:36:33
Originally by: darius mclever if you want to compare ships maybe compare ships of the same tier. for amarr, gallente and minmatar you used tier 3 but used tier 2 for caldari.
and i would like to see abaddons and hyperions with 3 dmg mods and still having a reasonable tank.
Some times it is difficult to compare the same tier ships. Raven is pure torpedo ship Tempest has mixed slots Apoc has optimal bonus but not damage. Anyway lets try. All configs have largest close weapon + 3 damage modes + long T2 ammo + 2 tracking comps for turret ships: Max DPS range Raven - 743DPS at 45km Apocalypse - 584DPS at 80km Tempest - 768DPS at 7.8km (6xAC800 + 2xSiege with Javelin Torpedo) Megathron - 745DPS at 15km DPS at 45km: Raven - 743DPS at 45km Apocalypse - 584DPS at 45km Tempest - 450DPS at 45km (Javelins fly only 30km) Megathron - 200DPS at 45km So... Raven won shooting from 45km. But Apoc can do the same damage from doubled range (80km). And even without Tracking Comp Apoc can do this from 1.4x range. All other conclusions are the same: "Lasers are overpowered, blasters suck (even with range upgrades it is extremely close weapon with medium damage)" And you are right about Hyperion. It is very difficult to fit 3DM on Hyperion with good tank. If you fit LAR on Hyperion you have no PG for Blasters. If you place 1600 plate instead of 1 damage mode you are still suck in passive tank. Abaddon 134k EHP VS 110k EHP (1x1600 + 2xAdaptivePlates + Damage control + 3xTrimark) Comparing Hyperion and Abaddon: Abaddon has more DPS, more range, more PG. You can fit 8x MegapulseII + LARII + Heavy Cap BoosterII + ABII and you will still have PG If you fit only 8xNeutronBlasters + LARII + ABII - you will need 3% PG imp
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.05 02:59:00 -
[42]
oh boy lols
no
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.02.05 09:41:00 -
[43]
No need for such a module, just fix the explo velocities of the missiles those are too low atm.
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Rastino
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Posted - 2010.02.05 14:05:00 -
[44]
Wow another thread about missilesą For gods sake stop it.
Missiles are not underpowered except rockets. There are god thing and bad things with missiles and turrets. Instead of flaming Larkonis because he doesnĘt agree with you listen to him. Larkonis actually knows what he is talking about. I would just be repeating him all day if I came with some points here.
The big problem is not missile boats in general. My theory is that it I the users of missile boats. DonĘt get me wrong here IĘm not calling you stupid. I just think a lot of people think missiles can do every job in this game. It all comes down to using the right ship for the job. Would you bring a BS to do a interceptors job or the other way around?
And before you complain about having to cross train lets have a look at minmatr. If you want to be a good and versatile minmatar pilot you need good or at least above average skills in the following: Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Armour tanking and Shield tanking. Do we hear a lot of minmatar pilots complain about thisą No.
Yes you might have to cross train to have ships to fit every job in PvP. I have had to train for three races, and yes caldari is one of them.
So stop the whining about caldari and missiles. Most of us had to cross train at some point or another. If you have to cross train to do the things you want its not a great injustice don to you by CCP and no I donĘt have sympathy for people that wants everything served on a silver plate. If that is the care I suggest you go play WOW. EVE takes brains and patients to play live with it.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.02.05 14:35:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Rastino Wow another thread about missilesą For gods sake stop it.
Missiles are not underpowered except rockets. There are god thing and bad things with missiles and turrets. Instead of flaming Larkonis because he doesnĘt agree with you listen to him. Larkonis actually knows what he is talking about. I would just be repeating him all day if I came with some points here.
The big problem is not missile boats in general. My theory is that it I the users of missile boats. DonĘt get me wrong here IĘm not calling you stupid. I just think a lot of people think missiles can do every job in this game. It all comes down to using the right ship for the job. Would you bring a BS to do a interceptors job or the other way around?
And before you complain about having to cross train lets have a look at minmatr. If you want to be a good and versatile minmatar pilot you need good or at least above average skills in the following: Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Armour tanking and Shield tanking. Do we hear a lot of minmatar pilots complain about thisą No.
Yes you might have to cross train to have ships to fit every job in PvP. I have had to train for three races, and yes caldari is one of them.
So stop the whining about caldari and missiles. Most of us had to cross train at some point or another. If you have to cross train to do the things you want its not a great injustice don to you by CCP and no I donĘt have sympathy for people that wants everything served on a silver plate. If that is the care I suggest you go play WOW. EVE takes brains and patients to play live with it.
Larkonis knows nothing.
So what is the jobs of missile boats, other than being pve ships or being victims of turret ships in pvp?
Dont come with this stupid oh minmatar has to learn everything , quess what every other race have to too. For my caldari ships I need missiles,gunnery,drones,shield tanking and even armor tanking to be able to participate in rr bs gangs oh and ewar.
You are the whiner here not the OP or the supporters.
"EVE takes brains and patients to play live with it." you should get some then. Oh and go play wow if you are so familiar with that game.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.05 17:05:00 -
[46]
Not supported until you include a fix to make defenders useful
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
Rastino
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Posted - 2010.02.05 22:05:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Rastino Wow another thread about missilesą For gods sake stop it.
Missiles are not underpowered except rockets. There are god thing and bad things with missiles and turrets. Instead of flaming Larkonis because he doesnĘt agree with you listen to him. Larkonis actually knows what he is talking about. I would just be repeating him all day if I came with some points here.
The big problem is not missile boats in general. My theory is that it I the users of missile boats. DonĘt get me wrong here IĘm not calling you stupid. I just think a lot of people think missiles can do every job in this game. It all comes down to using the right ship for the job. Would you bring a BS to do a interceptors job or the other way around?
And before you complain about having to cross train lets have a look at minmatr. If you want to be a good and versatile minmatar pilot you need good or at least above average skills in the following: Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Armour tanking and Shield tanking. Do we hear a lot of minmatar pilots complain about thisą No.
Yes you might have to cross train to have ships to fit every job in PvP. I have had to train for three races, and yes caldari is one of them.
So stop the whining about caldari and missiles. Most of us had to cross train at some point or another. If you have to cross train to do the things you want its not a great injustice don to you by CCP and no I donĘt have sympathy for people that wants everything served on a silver plate. If that is the care I suggest you go play WOW. EVE takes brains and patients to play live with it.
Larkonis knows nothing.
So what is the jobs of missile boats, other than being pve ships or being victims of turret ships in pvp?
Dont come with this stupid oh minmatar has to learn everything , quess what every other race have to too. For my caldari ships I need missiles,gunnery,drones,shield tanking and even armor tanking to be able to participate in rr bs gangs oh and ewar.
You are the whiner here not the OP or the supporters.
"EVE takes brains and patients to play live with it." you should get some then. Oh and go play wow if you are so familiar with that game.
LOL did I **** you off there. I must have made you angry,with you getting all personal
You are right missile boats are perfect for PVE. In PVP fleet they can be quiet handy as well, as I said before you just have to know how and when to use them. If you or your FC have no clue then you better learn or stop using missile boats. I have had to learn how and when to use them.
I wasnĘt whining about what you have to train to fly minmatar, if you actually read what I wrote. ö Do we hear a lot of minmatar pilots complain about thisą Noö ThatĘs not whining.
And for the direct personal attacksą IĘm not even going to dignify them with an answer.
Somewhere in all of this I get the impression you would like to challenge me, if that is the case just find me in game and put your money where your mouth is. Not that it has anything to do with the subject we are discussing.
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eocsnesemaj
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Posted - 2010.02.10 19:55:00 -
[48]
Ok i dont know about this missile tracking computer thing but i deff think that missiles should recieve the skill bonuses to ALL missiles. T2 torps with exp radius of 650 and exp velocity that most BS can even outrun is ridiculous. Also 30 sec flight time is too much if you are wanting to say that missiles are good for range, i would say half the flight time and double velocity. As far as defenders go..only some NPC use them so factoring them into any missiles vs turrets argument is about useless.
As far as lasers being overpowered.... yea thats true too.
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Larkonis Trassler
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2010.02.10 20:05:00 -
[49]
Originally by: eocsnesemaj Ok i dont know about this missile tracking computer thing but i deff think that missiles should recieve the skill bonuses to ALL missiles. T2 torps with exp radius of 650 and exp velocity that most BS can even outrun is ridiculous. Also 30 sec flight time is too much if you are wanting to say that missiles are good for range, i would say half the flight time and double velocity. As far as defenders go..only some NPC use them so factoring them into any missiles vs turrets argument is about useless.
As far as lasers being overpowered.... yea thats true too.
T2 Damage missiles are generally intended to be used against the ship class above yours so if you are fighting other BS fit a web and painter or bring a friend in a Rapier.
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist No. Larkonis |
eocsnesemaj
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Posted - 2010.02.10 22:08:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Originally by: eocsnesemaj Ok i dont know about this missile tracking computer thing but i deff think that missiles should recieve the skill bonuses to ALL missiles. T2 torps with exp radius of 650 and exp velocity that most BS can even outrun is ridiculous. Also 30 sec flight time is too much if you are wanting to say that missiles are good for range, i would say half the flight time and double velocity. As far as defenders go..only some NPC use them so factoring them into any missiles vs turrets argument is about useless.
As far as lasers being overpowered.... yea thats true too.
T2 Damage missiles are generally intended to be used against the ship class above yours so if you are fighting other BS fit a web and painter or bring a friend in a Rapier.
ˇˇT2 Damage missiles are generally intended to be used against the ship class above yoursˇˇI dont know where you got that from at all. And why would this be specific to missiles? ˇˇif you are fighting other BS fit a web and painterˇˇ plus warp disrupt and wheres the tank?.... as far as skills not applying to all missiles?
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Larkonis Trassler
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2010.02.11 00:32:00 -
[51]
Originally by: eocsnesemaj
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Originally by: eocsnesemaj Ok i dont know about this missile tracking computer thing but i deff think that missiles should recieve the skill bonuses to ALL missiles. T2 torps with exp radius of 650 and exp velocity that most BS can even outrun is ridiculous. Also 30 sec flight time is too much if you are wanting to say that missiles are good for range, i would say half the flight time and double velocity. As far as defenders go..only some NPC use them so factoring them into any missiles vs turrets argument is about useless.
As far as lasers being overpowered.... yea thats true too.
T2 Damage missiles are generally intended to be used against the ship class above yours so if you are fighting other BS fit a web and painter or bring a friend in a Rapier.
ˇˇT2 Damage missiles are generally intended to be used against the ship class above yoursˇˇI dont know where you got that from at all. And why would this be specific to missiles? ˇˇif you are fighting other BS fit a web and painterˇˇ plus warp disrupt and wheres the tank?.... as far as skills not applying to all missiles?
I don't know, maybe by looking at the explosion radius and velocity of T2 Rage/Fury missiles and comparing them to ships of the class that fire them, and I believe it's been mentioned by the Devs a couple of times. Just the same reason I wouldn't expect to use Void L against similar sized vessels (or ever, LOL) because of the terrible tracking. All you missile martyrs are constantly sounding hard done by because of Explosion velocity and radius. How often do turret users complain about falloff and tracking? If anything you should be glad that all your T2 ammo is useful across all spectrums.
You have these limitations, turrets have their own. You say missiles aren't viable in long range battles. Don't use them then or find a different role within the fleet for your missiles (protip: there are plenty).
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist No. Larkonis |
Jim Raynor
Caldari Sinister Corporation
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Posted - 2010.02.11 04:27:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 11/02/2010 04:28:19
Originally by: Doctor Aibolit Edited by: Doctor Aibolit on 05/02/2010 02:40:35 Edited by: Doctor Aibolit on 05/02/2010 02:36:33
Originally by: darius mclever if you want to compare ships maybe compare ships of the same tier. for amarr, gallente and minmatar you used tier 3 but used tier 2 for caldari.
and i would like to see abaddons and hyperions with 3 dmg mods and still having a reasonable tank.
Some times it is difficult to compare the same tier ships. Raven is pure torpedo ship Tempest has mixed slots Apoc has optimal bonus but not damage. Anyway lets try. All configs have largest close weapon + 3 damage modes + long T2 ammo + 2 tracking comps for turret ships: Max DPS range Raven - 743DPS at 45km Apocalypse - 584DPS at 80km Tempest - 768DPS at 7.8km (6xAC800 + 2xSiege with Javelin Torpedo) Megathron - 745DPS at 15km DPS at 45km: Raven - 743DPS at 45km Apocalypse - 584DPS at 45km Tempest - 450DPS at 45km (Javelins fly only 30km) Megathron - 200DPS at 45km So... Raven won shooting from 45km. But Apoc can do the same damage from doubled range (80km). And even without Tracking Comp Apoc can do this from 1.4x range. All other conclusions are the same: "Lasers are overpowered, blasters suck (even with range upgrades it is extremely close weapon with medium damage)" And you are right about Hyperion. It is very difficult to fit 3DM on Hyperion with good tank. If you fit LAR on Hyperion you have no PG for Blasters. If you place 1600 plate instead of 1 damage mode you are still suck in passive tank. Abaddon 134k EHP VS 110k EHP (1x1600 + 2xAdaptivePlates + Damage control + 3xTrimark) Comparing Hyperion and Abaddon: Abaddon has more DPS, more range, more PG. You can fit 8x MegapulseII + LARII + Heavy Cap BoosterII + ABII and you will still have PG If you fit only 8xNeutronBlasters + LARII + ABII - you will need 3% PG imp
I don't see how the Tempest is a 'mixed slot' ship, it has a double projectile bonus 6 turrets 4 launchers and a Raven has launcher bonuses 6 launcher 4 turrets.. so is the Raven a mixed slot ship too?
Missiles have a module to enhance damage.. it's called a target painter.. last thing I want is another damn module needed to make missiles actually apply damage to things it's rough enough as it is. ------ I'll make a sig later. |
Pistrik
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.11 10:22:00 -
[53]
Missiles are fine. Not supported.
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Rastino
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Posted - 2010.02.12 02:57:00 -
[54]
Oh my goodą Please stop this.
Missiles are fine and the way they work donĘt need to changed.
Now Larkonis was so nice to tell you missile lovers that there are plenty more roles in PvP than just long range. Now IĘm going to be nice and post a link a second time.
This time please have a look at it. And if missiles are so terrible in PVP explain to why I se a lot of missile boats as top damage dealer and/or final blow on kill mails. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1263386
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.12 12:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: darius mclever oh you mean those lol useless defenders? when did you see the last person that fitted defenders and survived?
You should start thinking in solutions rather than in troll phrases.
I would support this if it included a way to make defenders useful, for example the introduction of a fast-ROF, high CPU low PG 'defender launcher' that would be reasonably effective against incoming 'slow' missiles (HAM's and above) and ineffective against heavy missiles and below, but would also require a decent amount of skilling to train for.
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.02.14 02:05:00 -
[56]
um..... Target Painter.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.02.14 02:12:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: darius mclever oh you mean those lol useless defenders? when did you see the last person that fitted defenders and survived?
You should start thinking in solutions rather than in troll phrases.
I would support this if it included a way to make defenders useful, for example the introduction of a fast-ROF, high CPU low PG 'defender launcher' that would be reasonably effective against incoming 'slow' missiles (HAM's and above) and ineffective against heavy missiles and below, but would also require a decent amount of skilling to train for.
even with working defenders this proposal wouldnt be needed. i would rather see the proposal "apply guided missile precision skill to all missiles" go through. but Dav's try to bring up defenders as a valid counter was just too funny.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2010.02.14 03:56:00 -
[58]
I can support missiles being affected by tracking computers, so long as the following conditions are met:
- Tracking disruptors also affect missile tracking and range. - Smartbombs no longer destroy missiles. - Flight delay is reduced to become something more reasonable. - Defender missiles are removed from the game. - The Raven gets a seventh missile bank. - Rockets and light missiles get a 50% boost in damage output. - Guided missile precision also affects short range missiles - Assault Missile Launchers get a hefty tracking penalty. - The Kestrel gets 3 missile banks and 1 turret point. - Missile range support skills no longer give a net bonus of 125%. - Missile tracking support skills no longer give a net bonus of 100%. - Torpedoes are no longer absurdly overpowered. - The missile tracking formula is replaced with one that wasn't created by CCP Nozh.
In other words, missiles would have to be worth tweaking, not in dire need of total overhaul. A tracking computer would be a grain of sand in comparison to what needs to be done. However, far too many people like the sorry condition missiles are in to allow CCP to do anything about it.
____________ I'd make a forum signature that didn't suck, but I'm restricted by a character limit that does. |
Amir Baki
Amarr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.14 16:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: steave435
*stuff*
So, what can be done? Well, for close range, XL shield extenders to match the 1600mm plates would free up slots for tackle. **STUFF*
then give armor tanks an x-large rep, shield is different than armor, missiles are different than guns, not signed ---------------------- |
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