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[Proposal] Railgun Rebalancing

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Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.04.23 23:08:00 - [661] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Naomi Knight "Fight concludes at T=371" But the rokhs will run out of cap around 200sec . That wasnt taken into account at all :P Awesome, so you fit a cap booster to both the Apoc and the Rokh and the Rokh still wins. /shrug -Liang then you should ask guomi to fix those awesome fits, oh and cargo space is already heavily used by the rokh, I wonder if it will have enough left for cap charges
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.23 23:55:00 - [662] Originally by: Naomi Knight then you should ask guomi to fix those awesome fits, oh and cargo space is already heavily used by the rokh, I wonder if it will have enough left for cap charges What the hell do you have in your cargo hold - enough ammo for a POS bash? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.24 02:23:00 - [663] Originally by: Jack Icegaard Thanks Liang, and nice program Also note that a uniform type B fleet also will win vs the mixed fleet (with correct targeting order). If both fleets are mixed, the one with the highest number of type A ships will prevail, assuming they are mixed at equal ratio, (ex: + A + + B vs + A + + B). Only if they're even in raw fleet efficiency. However, consider the problem with three ships A,B, and A1 where Fleet efficiency runs A<A1<B and DPS runs A>B>A1. Consider that A1 is perfectly substitutable for A such that people who would bring A could always bring A1 if they wanted and vice versa. Since A1 > A a fleet of A1+B would always beat a fleet of A+B or A. But would lose to a fleet entirely of B. In this situation, adding B is always better than A or A1, and A1 is always better than A. This is the situation that we are in. And so long as your fleet does not go "Full ******" and choose the fit A as standard, B is the best, both as a personal decision and as a gang decision. IIRC fleet efficient Apoc is 312 DPS/98k EHP(A1 to the higher DPS lower EHP A's) and the fleet efficient Rokh is 321 DPS/126k EHP(B). Apoc is probably slightly more volley efficient(but has an EHP problem vs Maelstroms that the Rokh doesn't have) This leaves the Rokh as pretty clearly the best Sniper. I don't think it should be boosted from that position, Liang does. Not much argument can be had there.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.04.24 06:20:00 - [664] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Jack Icegaard Thanks Liang, and nice program Also note that a uniform type B fleet also will win vs the mixed fleet (with correct targeting order). If both fleets are mixed, the one with the highest number of type A ships will prevail, assuming they are mixed at equal ratio, (ex: + A + + B vs + A + + B). Only if they're even in raw fleet efficiency. However, consider the problem with three ships A,B, and A1 where Fleet efficiency runs A<A1<B and DPS runs A>B>A1. Consider that A1 is perfectly substitutable for A such that people who would bring A could always bring A1 if they wanted and vice versa. Since A1 > A a fleet of A1+B would always beat a fleet of A+B or A. But would lose to a fleet entirely of B. In this situation, adding B is always better than A or A1, and A1 is always better than A. This is the situation that we are in. And so long as your fleet does not go "Full ******" and choose the fit A as standard, B is the best, both as a personal decision and as a gang decision. IIRC fleet efficient Apoc is 312 DPS/98k EHP(A1 to the higher DPS lower EHP A's) and the fleet efficient Rokh is 321 DPS/126k EHP(B). Apoc is probably slightly more volley efficient(but has an EHP problem vs Maelstroms that the Rokh doesn't have) This leaves the Rokh as pretty clearly the best Sniper. I don't think it should be boosted from that position, Liang does. Not much argument can be had there. No it only leaves the rokh without cap. Yes Liang Rokhs cargo is full of ammo. As I said before its job doesnt end with fleet fight.
Jack Icegaard The Omega Project	Posted - 2010.04.25 05:28:00 - [665] Originally by: Goumindong IIRC fleet efficient Apoc is 312 DPS/98k EHP(A1 to the higher DPS lower EHP A's) and the fleet efficient Rokh is 321 DPS/126k EHP(B). Apoc is probably slightly more volley efficient(but has an EHP problem vs Maelstroms that the Rokh doesn't have) This leaves the Rokh as pretty clearly the best Sniper. I don't think it should be boosted from that position, Liang does. Not much argument can be had there. The difference here stems from the tier system. Long range is the niche for Caldari turret-ships and Caldari is the only faction that have their tier3 BS designed as an pure sniper. Its by the same token that the tier1 Brutix falls flat when compared to the Hurricane or the Harbinger. In sniper works, The Rokh should have a clear edge vs the tier2 Apoc, IMO.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.25 14:57:00 - [666] Originally by: Jack Icegaard The difference here stems from the tier system. Long range is the niche for Caldari turret-ships and Caldari is the only faction that have their tier3 BS designed as an pure sniper. Its by the same token that the tier1 Brutix falls flat when compared to the Hurricane or the Harbinger. In sniper works, The Rokh should have a clear edge vs the tier2 Apoc, IMO. Tier differences are not a good idea and most players are quite against them. I don't think you're going to get any sympathy by saying that the Tier 3 ship should be strictly better just because its Tier 3.
Jack Icegaard The Omega Project	Posted - 2010.04.25 21:27:00 - [667] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Jack Icegaard The difference here stems from the tier system. Long range is the niche for Caldari turret-ships and Caldari is the only faction that have their tier3 BS designed as an pure sniper. Its by the same token that the tier1 Brutix falls flat when compared to the Hurricane or the Harbinger. In sniper works, The Rokh should have a clear edge vs the tier2 Apoc, IMO. Tier differences are not a good idea and most players are quite against them. I don't think you're going to get any sympathy by saying that the Tier 3 ship should be strictly better just because its Tier 3. Let me put it this way; as long as there is a tier system, the Rokh should not be an exception from it. Considering that long range is the niche for Caldari turret-ships and they are the only faction with their tier3 BS designed as a sniper; it should not come as a surprise if the Rokh have a clear edge in long range engagements.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.25 23:17:00 - [668] Edited by: Goumindong on 25/04/2010 23:17:20 Originally by: Jack Icegaard Let me put it this way; as long as there is a tier system, the Rokh should not be an exception from it. Considering that long range is the niche for Caldari turret-ships and they are the only faction with their tier3 BS designed as a sniper; it should not come as a surprise if the Rokh have a clear edge in long range engagements. The Rokh isn't exempt from it. It receives all the benefits that all high tier battleships get. Edit: and they do have the clear edge, the question is simply how much of a clear edge. -- Did you get that thing i sent you?
Jack Icegaard The Omega Project	Posted - 2010.04.26 12:46:00 - [669] Originally by: Goumindong The Rokh isn't exempt from it. It receives all the benefits that all high tier battleships get. Edit: and they do have the clear edge, the question is simply how much of a clear edge. A boost to Railguns is about more than just the Rokh. The reason the Rokh has an edge is because its specialized with bonuses that fits perfect into the heavy fleet sniping role (and its tier3). The Apoc is a more versatile ship that also fits well into the RR-role with very nice optimal range for Pulses. It has better cap economy, 20% smaller sig. Radius, higher alpha, don't have to reload, cargo space etc. Hybrid weapons inherits the weaknesses from both projectiles and lasers with very little tradeoff. Perhaps 15% is to ask for too much but a 10% boost to damage modifier is definitely in order. And the Rokh will just be fine with 10% higher DPS, IMO.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.26 13:50:00 - [670] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Naomi Knight then you should ask guomi to fix those awesome fits, oh and cargo space is already heavily used by the rokh, I wonder if it will have enough left for cap charges What the hell do you have in your cargo hold - enough ammo for a POS bash? -Liang What do you think sniper BS are for? Sniper fights almost always start when one fleet is moving to kill a POS or in the middle of killing/reinforcing a POS. So, yes, you have tons of ammo. Unless you are attacking, in which case you can skimp. However, even then, you usually have a pile of short/mid/long-range ammo for the fight. You don't know what range you're going to end up at and you don't want to run out of ammo on the off chance that the fight escalates into a multi-hour thing. I mean, how do you think these fights happen? You don't exactly take a sniper BS fleet on a roam. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.26 15:44:00 - [671] Originally by: Bagehi What do you think sniper BS are for? Sniper fights almost always start when one fleet is moving to kill a POS or in the middle of killing/reinforcing a POS. ... I mean, how do you think these fights happen? You don't exactly take a sniper BS fleet on a roam. Oh, I was under the impression that people had cap ships for killing POSes. Most of my fleet fights have happened at gates - where one of us was jumping into the other. Some of them have happened at POSes, but as a rule we did nothing more than play second fiddle to the cap fleet. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Xtover Amarr	Posted - 2010.04.26 16:06:00 - [672] Edited by: Xtover on 26/04/2010 16:06:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh, I was under the impression that people had cap ships for killing POSes. Wrong. capship fleets are currently a thing of the past. POS bashes are by BS fleets 99% of the time.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.26 16:14:00 - [673] Originally by: Xtover Wrong. capship fleets are currently a thing of the past. POS bashes are by BS fleets 99% of the time. Then I'm damn glad I don't do that kind of crap anymore. Spending hours shooting a POS when dreads can knock it down in a single siege cycle is borderline stupidity. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Arrador	Posted - 2010.04.26 17:18:00 - [674] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Bagehi What do you think sniper BS are for? Sniper fights almost always start when one fleet is moving to kill a POS or in the middle of killing/reinforcing a POS. ... I mean, how do you think these fights happen? You don't exactly take a sniper BS fleet on a roam. Oh, I was under the impression that people had cap ships for killing POSes. Most of my fleet fights have happened at gates - where one of us was jumping into the other. Some of them have happened at POSes, but as a rule we did nothing more than play second fiddle to the cap fleet. -Liang heard of a module called Cyno jammer?
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.26 17:26:00 - [675] Originally by: Arrador heard of a module called Cyno jammer? Yep, sure have. Did you know that you don't have to kill the whole POS to take out the cyno jammer? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:16:00 - [676] Edited by: Bagehi on 26/04/2010 18:17:56 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Arrador heard of a module called Cyno jammer? Yep, sure have. Did you know that you don't have to kill the whole POS to take out the cyno jammer? -Liang Cyno Jammer 16m HP to turn it off (1m shield 15m armor) Large Tower 30m HP to reinforce (shutting the jammer down) If you are going to pound down 16m HP, might as well shut down the rest of the POS modules while you're at it. Obviously, this depends on the resists. However, with fleet lag, you simply don't field caps to pound POSs very often anymore. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Bagehi What do you think sniper BS are for? Sniper fights almost always start when one fleet is moving to kill a POS or in the middle of killing/reinforcing a POS. ... I mean, how do you think these fights happen? You don't exactly take a sniper BS fleet on a roam. Oh, I was under the impression that people had cap ships for killing POSes. Most of my fleet fights have happened at gates - where one of us was jumping into the other. Some of them have happened at POSes, but as a rule we did nothing more than play second fiddle to the cap fleet. -Liang Why was the fleet on the move? Could it have been to... hit a POS? This signature is useless, but it is red.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:43:00 - [677] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Bagehi The best sniper in the game is used the least of the sniper ships. No, it doesn't seem terribly strange to me. As I said before: the reason that people don't fly the Rokh is because they are conditioned to think that it is bad - regardless of whether it is or not. I haven't been conditioned. I've flown it. I've flown other things. Like most, I trained to fly something that doesn't use railguns. This isn't because I've been brainwashed to think that I am better off spending months of additional training time to fly something else than I already fly, which you claim is the best ship for the job. Originally by: Liang Nuren However, what you just said is that you place no value whatsoever on EHP - which is a mistake. I did not say this. I said that EHP increases are not equal to DPS increases. DPS aggregates in a fleet, while EHP does not. Therefore, EHP is only beneficial in that it maintains parts of the aggregated DPS. I also said there is an upward limit where increases to EHP are worthless as they do not improve survivability. Originally by: Liang Nuren Also, you are grossly misunderstanding my argument - and this is because you apparently have no reading comprehension. I'll try to use little words for you to follow below - but really attacking someone that's arguing for your point of view is **ing stupid. You grossly misunderstand fleet mechanics. Likely because you have not been in large fleet fights. It is also a gross misunderstanding that you have the same point of view as me, as evidenced by your argument that the EHP excess and the range excess of the Rokh are perfectly good trades for the worst alpha and dps of snipers at engagement ranges. Originally by:** Liang Nuren Now, as Goum is so fond of pointing out, range bonuses are damage bonuses. However, I'd argue that they are conditionally damage bonuses - and this is why I've said above that they are in fact bonuses to EHP. Again, just as there is an upward limit to useful EHP, there is an upward limit to useful range. There is, however, no upward limit to useful dps or alpha strike. This is the failure of your arguments as well as those of Goum. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:57:00 - [678] Originally by: Bagehi Again, just as there is an upward limit to useful EHP, there is an upward limit to useful range. There is, however, no upward limit to useful dps or alpha strike. This is the failure of your arguments as well as those of Goum. The upward limit of range is 250km... which we're well under There is no upward limit on EHP. This is a figment of your imagination and the fact that you're unable to perceive small units of time(especially when they come in random intervals) There is no upward limit on DPS. This is a figment of your imagination and the fact that you're unable to perceive small units of time(especially when they come in random intervals) There IS an upward limit on volley damage... but i am pretty sure everyone is also well under that. Quote: I did not say this. I said that EHP increases are not equal to DPS increases. DPS aggregates in a fleet, while EHP does not. Damage aggregates and is compared to a targets EHP... EHP is already aggregated at the start of the fight Now, we have been over this already 1. EHP looks worse to individual pilots compared to DPS because DPS is easy to see the effects of and EHP is not. Furthermore, the primary advantage of EHP is that it allows others to do DPS. 2. EHP can be worse in some situations. These situations do not encompass the Rokh or fleet fights... unless your alliance has committed to a sub-par fleet battleship doctrine -- Did you get that thing i sent you?
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.04.26 19:03:00 - [679] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 26/04/2010 19:02:54 Originally by: Goumindong 2. EHP can be worse in some situations. These situations do not encompass the Rokh or fleet fights... unless your alliance has committed to a sub-par fleet battleship doctrine just lol this is one of the stupidest line ive read this month :)
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.26 19:20:00 - [680] Originally by: Goumindong The upward limit of range is 250km... which we're well under Truly? It is easy to fit a Rokh to reach past that range. Would that not be considered excess range? However, it is impossible to fit a Rokh to do the damage of other sniper ships. Most fleet engagements are two balls of ships 150km-200km distant from each other though. So, range much further than 200km is excess. Originally by: Goumindong There is no upward limit on EHP. This is a figment of your imagination and the fact that you're unable to perceive small units of time(especially when they come in random intervals) If EHP = DPS and the worth of a ship is the sum of the two, you would be best served making use of the lack of stacking penalty provided by tank modules and fly a pure tank ship. Such a ship would be a waste though, as it would not actually improve the likelihood of survival, and would sacrifice DPS to do this. Originally by: Goumindong There is no upward limit on DPS. This is a figment of your imagination and the fact that you're unable to perceive small units of time(especially when they come in random intervals) Yeah, I said there is no upward limit to DPS. Apparently we are agreed on this point. Originally by: Goumindong There IS an upward limit on volley damage... but i am pretty sure everyone is also well under that. False, volley damage is spilled over onto the secondary target. Originally by: Goumindong Quote: I did not say this. I said that EHP increases are not equal to DPS increases. DPS aggregates in a fleet, while EHP does not. Damage aggregates and is compared to a targets EHP... EHP is already aggregated at the start of the fight Aggregate: formed of separate units gathered into a mass or whole. Really, if I'm being shot, I have the benefit of my fleet mates' EHP? I DO have the benefit of my fleet mates' DPS when I'm killing something. Originally by: Goumindong Now, we have been over this already 1. EHP looks worse to individual pilots compared to DPS because DPS is easy to see the effects of and EHP is not. Furthermore, the primary advantage of EHP is that it allows others to do DPS. 2. EHP can be worse in some situations. These situations do not encompass the Rokh or fleet fights... unless your alliance has committed to a sub-par fleet battleship doctrine False. It looks bad when your ship pops and you get raged at for flying a glass canon. Far worse to not have enough EHP than to not have enough DPS. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.26 19:52:00 - [681] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 26/04/2010 19:02:54 Originally by: Goumindong 2. EHP can be worse in some situations. These situations do not encompass the Rokh or fleet fights... unless your alliance has committed to a sub-par fleet battleship doctrine just lol this is one of the stupidest line ive read this month :) Read the maths section in my link, if that won't convince you then you should stop posting with the big boys. -- Did you get that thing i sent you?
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.26 20:00:00 - [682] Originally by: Bagehi Truly? It is easy to fit a Rokh to reach past that range But we're not. Quote: If EHP = DPS and the worth of a ship is the sum of the two, The multiple of the two, not the sum of the two Quote: lack of stacking penalty provided by tank modules and fly a pure tank ship All tank modules are stacking penalized in one way or another. Even the RAW HP modules which have no explicitly defined penalty. Quote: False, volley damage is spilled over onto the secondary target. No its not. Unless you have some magical system that makes excess damage appear onto your next locked target somehow. I mentioned we were probably under the point where it was a drawback, but really. Spilling onto the next target? That is the advantage that low volley has Quote: Aggregate: formed of separate units gathered into a mass or whole. Really, if I'm being shot, I have the benefit of my fleet mates' EHP? I DO have the benefit of my fleet mates' DPS when I'm killing something. You have had the benefit of your fleet mates EHP so long as you were not the first target. And if you were then your DPS didn't really add up to much, but your EHP mattered a lot Quote: False. It looks bad when your ship pops and you get raged at for flying a glass canon. Far worse to not have enough EHP than to not have enough DPS. Yet you continue to fly ships that do not maximize the combination of DPS and EHP... -- Did you get that thing i sent you?
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.26 20:35:00 - [683] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/04/2010 20:36:14 Originally by: Bagehi If you are going to pound down 16m HP, might as well shut down the rest of the POS modules while you're at it. Obviously, this depends on the resists. WTF? Yes, because nobody fits resists on a death star. Quote: However, with fleet lag, you simply don't field caps to pound POSs very often anymore. I can't speak to that - it seems extremely foolish to bring 500 battleships instead of 50 dreads though. Like I said, I'm glad I got out of massive fleet blobbery when I did. Quote: Why was the fleet on the move? Could it have been to... hit a POS? To incap the cyno jammer.... so they could bring in their cap fleet or bridge in support. They did both. :) I also want to point out that there is a practical limit on the utility of alpha strike. That's a long discussion though, and one that's been rehashed oh so many times. -Liang Ed: And really if the entire goal of your fleet op is to go bash a POS, you have never ever had any choice but Amarr. Ever. Even when they "sucked". And you wouldn't even if the Hybrids were boosted by 50% or more. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Emmerik	Posted - 2010.04.26 20:46:00 - [684] Agreed... Railguns need some love
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.26 21:00:00 - [685] Originally by: Liang Nuren I can't speak to that - it seems extremely foolish to bring 500 battleships instead of 50 dreads though. Like I said, I'm glad I got out of massive fleet blobbery when I did. Actually, they usually send several different BS fleets into nearby systems and hit them at the same time, so if an enemy fleet shows up, you consolidate and overload the node. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.26 21:06:00 - [686] Originally by: Bagehi Actually, they usually send several different BS fleets into nearby systems and hit them at the same time, so if an enemy fleet shows up, you consolidate and overload the node. Ah, it all begins to become in focus now! I suppose that isn't such a new tactic. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.26 21:13:00 - [687] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Bagehi Actually, they usually send several different BS fleets into nearby systems and hit them at the same time, so if an enemy fleet shows up, you consolidate and overload the node. Ah, it all begins to become in focus now! I suppose that isn't such a new tactic. -Liang Yeah, this tactic is as old as the game. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.26 21:34:00 - [688] Originally by: Bagehi Wrong word. Point remains. No, it doesn't. The largest rectangle with sides that have a fixed sum is always a square Quote: Proof? 1+1 =2 2/1 = +100% 2+1 = 3 3/2 = +50% +100%>+50% Now just do it with hit points added from plates. 10k Base armor for Abaddon + 5250 from 1600mm RT = 52% more armor(less than +45% more hit points due to shield and structure hit points). Add the second and you're at 21125 armor = +33% more armor. That is a stacking penalty. Quote: This is one of the reasons people don't use missiles. It you have four targets and you hit the fire gun button(s), but the first target dies before you fire, it will shoot at the next target. This is true enough. At the same time, if you are shooting at that target and it has 1 HP left and you volley it for 5000 then you have wasted 4999 damage. This is where the waste comes in, not in targeting. I was saying that this isn't likely to be a big deal at current volley values. Quote: No, the guy before me warped out at 50% armor. So, in reality, I am only saved the time required to get to me as a target (my name starts with a "b" so when they go alphabetical order, they get to me pretty quickly). So you got saved enough damage to volley you to 50% of your armor and you were able to deal damage throughout that. If you weren't then they would have been shooting at you. Targeting loss works on both sides, so any reduction in the value of EHp due to targeting time also reduces the value of DPS. Unless the fight is a turkey shoot, but then who cares about balance? Quote: Clearly you have not looked at the fits of ships I have flown. You're still stuck on the theoretic fits showing how other ships can fill the same niche as railgun ships, a niche that (as no one fits any of the ships that way) is useless. My ships are not fit that way. Actually i was looking at your named gun Rokhs. You don't have a loss history for of rokhs for me to examine. -- Did you get that thing i sent you?
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.26 21:40:00 - [689] Originally by: Bagehi Yeah, this tactic is as old as the game. This tactic is not as old as the game. If you want a system its better to stick all your folks in it from the start. Winning under lag is typically a function of being there first. Not going to the point you want immediately is more likely to lose you the point and the battle than it is win. Separating your forces like that is inviting disaster. If you've done that and you've got the system overloaded you might as well bring your caps in(because no one will shoot them when they load grid, compared to the enemy who will get killed if they attempt it) Quote: Most fleet engagements are two balls of ships 150km-200km distant from each other though. So, range much further than 200km is excess. Unless it gives you a DPS advantage. Which, if your enemy is set for another range. It will. -- Did you get that thing i sent you?
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.27 17:23:00 - [690] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Bagehi Yeah, this tactic is as old as the game. This tactic is not as old as the game. If you want a system its better to stick all your folks in it from the start. Winning under lag is typically a function of being there first. Not going to the point you want immediately is more likely to lose you the point and the battle than it is win. Separating your forces like that is inviting disaster. If you've done that and you've got the system overloaded you might as well bring your caps in(because no one will shoot them when they load grid, compared to the enemy who will get killed if they attempt it) Riiight... you go ahead and try that. You want the grid to die before any enemies realize you are there after all. Right? This signature is useless, but it is red.

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