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Qurian Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.12 23:07:00 - [1] So to give some background information, I am a miner - I bought and skilled up a Charon for myself to move large amounts of "whatever" (basically if a friend or myself needs something moved, I am happy to help!) but now that I've made myself a little bit of pocket cash, I have a question: I am going to get into trading, i.e. moving goods for profit, and am curious whether (from experience) moving MASSIVE amounts of product in my Charon would be a suicide attempt, or whether it would be best to move small scale amounts of product in say an indy, or a frig. Any insight is pleasantly appreciated :) - Qurian -
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.12 23:10:00 - [2] If you're only sticking to highsec and cargo worth less than, say, around 4 bil ISK tops, you should be reasonably safe. Adjust the number according to personal paranoia level. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Qurian Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.12 23:13:00 - [3] Originally by: Akita T If you're only sticking to highsec and cargo worth less than, say, around 4 bil ISK tops, you should be reasonably safe. Adjust the number according to personal paranoia level. I am paranoid, as everyone who leaves station should be to some extent. I stay mostly to high sec, (I only enter low-sec on rare occasions) But if I am not moving that much product (right now I'm only at a few hundred mil) would it be a better idea to stick to indy? for speed's sake? - Qurian -
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.12 23:28:00 - [4] Edited by: Akita T on 12/02/2010 23:32:34 It's all about (cargo ISK value / EHP of ship the cargo is in)^X. If the ratio is too high, you're risking too much, IMHO. Now, X... well, X>=1 due to the fact gathering a larger party together for a tougher suicide-gank is harder, but how much harder, hard to say. And it also kind of depends on the security rating of the system you're in at the moment (it's easier to be suicide-ganked in a 0.5 than in a 1.0). Freighters have plenty of EHP (up to 180k-200k or so just from skills), untanked industrials have barely any EHP to speak of (even as low as 5-6k EHP). I wouldn't exactly advise undocking in an untanked industrial with several hundred mil worth of cargo in it... depends on how many "several" is though. If you're talking overtanked (20k-30k EHP) industrial, then maybe, just barely, for the low "several"... but I'd much rather go with a reasonably tanked transport ship (40k-60k EHP) if by "several hundred mil" you mean "over half a bil". _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.02.12 23:59:00 - [5] Follow the std Red Frog collateral limit, afaik 1 billion max cargo value. Reasonably safe imo, from the perspective of organized gankers, it's penny change. Low volume, high to very high value cargoes, I'd ship them in Orcas. Shipping several hundred millions isk cargo in a T1 indy will make you a primary target, even when you're not afk piloting. What's important to keep in mind here is ship agility and station exit bookmarks. If you're inclined to take the risk with a T1 indy, at the very least fit a T2 cloak and do the cloak-warp trick. For a safer alternative, train blockade runners.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.02.13 00:23:00 - [6] What is this cloak-warp trick? Sounds like an exploit if a t1 indy can warp cloaked, and if I was a suicide ganker I'd petition it --------------------------------- Regarding high-sec mining: Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr 3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.13 00:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane What is this cloak-warp trick? Sounds like an exploit if a t1 indy can warp cloaked, and if I was a suicide ganker I'd petition it You start to align to the warp-to point (since you start from a perfect standstill you are already perfectly aligned, you only need to pick up speed), you hit the MWD as soon as you can after, then immediately after that you also hit the cloak (speed boost from MWD combined with cloak speed penalty means top speed should be about the same as long as MWD is still "fake-active"), then just before the MWD cycle expires you decloak and initiate warp, actually entering warp very soon after. Or at least, that's how the "MWD+cloak trick" used to work, haven't tried it recently. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.02.13 00:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane What is this cloak-warp trick? Sounds like an exploit if a t1 indy can warp cloaked, and if I was a suicide ganker I'd petition it You start to align to the warp-to point (since you start from a perfect standstill you are already perfectly aligned, you only need to pick up speed), you hit the MWD as soon as you can after, then immediately after that you also hit the cloak (speed boost from MWD combined with cloak speed penalty means top speed should be about the same as long as MWD is still "fake-active"), then just before the MWD cycle expires you decloak and initiate warp, actually entering warp very soon after. Or at least, that's how the "MWD+cloak trick" used to work, haven't tried it recently. That is precicely how the MWD+cloak trick currently works. I use it all the time for resuppling my chappies in hostile space. It is very hard for someone to stop one of my Deep Space Transports using this trick, to the point that I have lost one Deep Space Transport in the entire time I have been playing EVE and that was a time when I was flying drunk and forgot to use the trick! Blobby and bubbly gate camps can catch you, of course, but those are static traps and are revealed by your scout long before you are ever in danger of jumping in to them with your hauler.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.02.13 01:12:00 - [9] A better way imo is to align, cloak and press mwd within 1-2 secs after the cloak button. It's a split second window of opportunity where modules activation in possible under cloak. Running mwd prior to cloaking exposes your ship to fast lockers.
Alphus Altare	Posted - 2010.02.13 09:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Qurian Originally by: Akita T If you're only sticking to highsec and cargo worth less than, say, around 4 bil ISK tops, you should be reasonably safe. Adjust the number according to personal paranoia level. I am paranoid, as everyone who leaves station should be to some extent. I stay mostly to high sec, (I only enter low-sec on rare occasions) But if I am not moving that much product (right now I'm only at a few hundred mil) would it be a better idea to stick to indy? for speed's sake? Are you suggesting that people can/do gank freighters? It would take a **** ton of ships to alpha a freighter. If you like warping to amarr or rens from Jita in an hour or two, then yes, buy a freighter. If you're moving massive amounts of product from region to region, then yes, buy a freighter. My only reason for ever wanting to buy a (jump)freighter would be nullsec logistics. Protip: You can make money without ever leaving empire, or ever leaving a region if you know what you're doing.

Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.13 09:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Alphus Altare Originally by: Qurian Originally by: Akita T If you're only sticking to highsec and cargo worth less than, say, around 4 bil ISK tops, you should be reasonably safe. Adjust the number according to personal paranoia level. I am paranoid, as everyone who leaves station should be to some extent. I stay mostly to high sec, (I only enter low-sec on rare occasions) But if I am not moving that much product (right now I'm only at a few hundred mil) would it be a better idea to stick to indy? for speed's sake? Are you suggesting that people can/do gank freighters? It would take a **** ton of ships to alpha a freighter. If you like warping to amarr or rens from Jita in an hour or two, then yes, buy a freighter. If you're moving massive amounts of product from region to region, then yes, buy a freighter. My only reason for ever wanting to buy a (jump)freighter would be nullsec logistics. Protip: You can make money without ever leaving empire, or ever leaving a region if you know what you're doing. takes about 20 last I checked.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.02.13 09:52:00 - [12] If you want a steady supply of things to haul for a reasonable minimum fee, Red Frog Investments is currently recruiting freighter pilots. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Locin WeEda Gallente Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2010.02.13 10:27:00 - [13] Edited by: Locin WeEda on 13/02/2010 10:27:44 Contact me via evemail if you are interested, Qurian :) Red Frog Freight Service
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.13 11:20:00 - [14] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 13/02/2010 11:21:50 Originally by: Sturmwolke A better way imo is to align, cloak and press mwd within 1-2 secs after the cloak button. It's a split second window of opportunity where modules activation in possible under cloak. Running mwd prior to cloaking exposes your ship to fast lockers. AFAIK this is the way it's meant to be done, but it's harder / trickier to do than the MWD + cloak other and "default" way so few do it. Quote: Are you suggesting that people can/do gank freighters? It would take a **** ton of ships to alpha a freighter. Actually it's done every day and multiple times. Some rare cases there's even JF suicide ganks, but in that case the value of the cargo has to be supreme to move so many gankers. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Alater Caedo	Posted - 2010.02.13 11:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha null It would take a **** ton of ships to alpha a freighter. Actually it's done every day and multiple times. I guess I'm a bit ignorant to the ability of suicide gankers. Are we talking 4-4 or elsewhere?
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.02.13 17:37:00 - [16] Both. --------------------------------- Regarding high-sec mining: Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr 3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
skurv	Posted - 2010.02.13 18:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Alater Caedo I guess I'm a bit ignorant to the ability of suicide gankers. Are we talking 4-4 or elsewhere? it's not actively done inside jita (normally)... but within 3-4 jumps from jita in any direction it becomes much more common. especially in 0.5 systems on the major trade routes. it wouldn't take more than 10 or so people to quickly gank a freighter before CONCORD arrived. typically that would be why you shouldn't move more than a couple bil is worth of goods in one. it just becomes not profitable enough for them to justify the effort. (2b in the ship, you're looking at WAY less than 200m / person for the gank, which will cost them a high alpha fit BS and a big sec status hit each in the process). at least that's my belief, someone feel free to correct me if i'm off base here.
AdZc Caldari Omega Xen manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.02.13 19:25:00 - [18] Do u not just put stuff into cargo containers? So when ur scanned down they cant tell exactly what ur carrying? I dont know if thats the case, just an assumption. --------------------------- Shipoopi!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.02.13 19:40:00 - [19] Originally by: AdZc Do u not just put stuff into cargo containers? So when ur scanned down they cant tell exactly what ur carrying? Contents of cargo containers DO get scanned. The only way to NOT get scanned is to put your stuff in containers, then put the containers in a courier contract "plastic wrap" (or was that plastic wrap your plastic wrap ? anyway, something equally weird to avoid scanning). Alternatively, put your stuff in the corp hangar of an Orca, not only does that not get scanned, it does not even DROP anything when killed - of course, that means you need an Orca and you can only carry up to 40k m^3 of goods (a bit more if some of them fit in containers). _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2010.02.13 22:12:00 - [20] I survived an attack by 17 BS's in 0.6 space. I would say the danger is mostly on weekends and in a few 0.5-0.6 systems on major trade routes. Don't carry very high value cargo (greater than 5 bil) don't travel AFK at least on weekends and train Mech V and your risk will be relatively low. Traveling in a smaller ship is NOT safer because it simply means you can be hit by a smaller gang.

Ave Volta Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2010.02.14 01:06:00 - [21] From what I know it takes 15+ well fitted BS in 0.5 to gank a freighter. If you are hauling 1B or less the gankers will lose isk on the attack, so hauling in high sec is reasonably safe if you keep the value on the low end. -------------------------------- chown -R us:us /yourbase
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.02.14 02:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Sturmwolke A better way imo is to align, cloak and press mwd within 1-2 secs after the cloak button. It's a split second window of opportunity where modules activation in possible under cloak. Running mwd prior to cloaking exposes your ship to fast lockers. AFAIK this is the way it's meant to be done, but it's harder / trickier to do than the MWD + cloak other and "default" way so few do it. Actually, it depends on the low slot configuration. Because Cloaking first will reduce the final speed reached when the MWD cycle expires (thus putting instawarp at risk), you need to mitigate that effect by fitting an extra istab (or two) to get a reliable instawarp. However, generally, I'd have to agree that it's "easier" to do the MWD first. Mainly for the public to digest, the core theory behind the instawarp-trick is : 1. MAX MWD/AB speed under T2 cloak > 75% of your ship's normal top speed. 2. The above speed needs to be reached BEFORE the single MWD/AB cycle auto expires under cloak. 3. When you drop cloak just as the cycle finishes, if your speed >= 75% of your ship's normal top speed, you will instawarp. Now, if you DID NOT manage to fulfill any of the above conditions, you will NOT instawarp. The ship will be vulnerable between 1-5 seconds as it struggles to make up the speed difference. In practice : Point 1. Simple to solve. Use EFT to find out the max cloaked speed with MWD/AB activated. Point 2. Where all the problem lies. Increase the ship's agility for faster acceleration. AVOID fitting nanofibers. It will raise the ship's top speed and therefore the 75% speed bar. The only module that you want to fit here is an istab (and/or low friction rigs). Point 3. MWD/AB will automatically de-activate under cloak. You only get 1 cycle. If your cloaked speed is well above the 75% of your ship's normal top speed when it de-activates, you have more leeway in waiting until after the cycle finishes before de-cloaking. General example : Iteron V - T2 cloak, NO istab, 3 RCU II, 10mn MWD = instawarp (either way) Iteron V - T2 cloak, 2 T2 Istab, 10mn T2 AB = 3-4 seconds vulnerability (OK for high-sec use) Occator - T2 cloak, 2 T2 Istab, 10mn MWD = instawarp (MWD first) Occator - T2 cloak, 3 T2 Istab, 10mn MWD = instawarp (Cloak first)
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.14 03:32:00 - [23] Top freighter ganking systems: * Domain / Niarja * The Citadel / Uedama My Blockade Runner was scanned today in Uedama. I was a little insulted, as I would have been cloaked had I been carrying anything of value.
Agent Unknown Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.14 03:51:00 - [24] Edited by: Agent Unknown on 14/02/2010 03:53:09 Inertia stabs seem okay to fit, but they do raise your signature radius which makes it easier to lock you (whether significant or not is another question). Blockade runners are IMO the most critical part to any logistics if you peek into low-sec (or live in it), and more-so in 0.0. Heck, you can even put your scout into a nano'd blockade runner and carry some more goods with it. Edit: Also, there's the webbing trick that works 100% of the time with a bit of practice. While the freighter is aligning, wait to ~25% top speed (afaik 25m/s in a Charon, for example), then pop dual webs on it for instant warp. This is best done with a rapier, but a fast frig can do it. Keep in mind that either 1) the webber needs to be in the same corp, or 2) you use the "can flip" mechanic to flag the freighter pilot to the webber beforehand. Also, I now have one of those annoying sigs. Originally by: CCP Fallout And yelling is bad. It makes the baby Jesus cry and when the baby Jesus cries I'm forced to lock threads
Starlk	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:00:00 - [25] It's happened a few times when I did trade runs from Rens to Jita, it's always brick droppingly bad in the .5 systems. That said I used to use a Hoarder with around 18km3 space, sure I couldn't carry much but it was always a worry with 1.8m trit in my cargo hold. You exit a gate, someone locks on and you hope they're too far away to do anything. General rule of thumb is do not bloody autopilot. If you autopilot you drop out of warp a good few thousand km from the gate, this is where pirates like to hit, because of the distance from the gate you have less chance of jumping. Always warp to 0m metres and do it all manually. From what I've been told carrying cargo containers can be useful, putting your goods inside them is meant to stop cargo scanners, that said I'm not 100% sure if that works.
Luxotor Minmatar Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate On the Rocks	Posted - 2010.02.14 14:59:00 - [26] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Top freighter ganking systems: * Domain / Niarja * The Citadel / Uedama My Blockade Runner was scanned today in Uedama. I was a little insulted, as I would have been cloaked had I been carrying anything of value. There's no reason not to cloak anyway if you're piloting a blockade runner IMO.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.02.14 16:26:00 - [27] Originally by: Starlk From what I've been told carrying cargo containers can be useful, putting your goods inside them is meant to stop cargo scanners, that said I'm not 100% sure if that works. it doesn't.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.16 23:01:00 - [28] Just found this, which could be useful to newer players: Cloak MWD tutorial - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.02.16 23:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Starlk From what I've been told carrying cargo containers can be useful, putting your goods inside them is meant to stop cargo scanners, that said I'm not 100% sure if that works. it doesn't. You could always set up a courier to yourself with the goods in a container. that way it's double-containered. --------------------------------- Regarding high-sec mining: Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr 3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
Kassasis Dakkstromri Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.18 12:03:00 - [30] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Just found this, which could be useful to newer players: Cloak MWD tutorial Skip to around 6:00 mark for the part relevant to this discussion.



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