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Alaik	Posted - 2010.02.17 07:43:00 - [1] Assuming good fits and skills, which would you expect to complete level 4 missions quickest, and provide the most firepower in a level 5 mission gang? I would prefer the strongest overall ship, rather than speed at one particular mission/rat type, as I enjoy a bit of variety rather than running 4 AE4s each day. I am torn between completing my Gallente training, or training up Caldari ships, culminating in the Golem. The temptation of Caldari ships is due to the majority of my corp being shield tankers, and having one 1 kind of remote repair in missions and WH ops is more efficient. Going for the Caldari option means I would also need to spend the time getting missile skills, so it's not a choice I wish to make lightly. Hence, asking for advice.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.17 08:12:00 - [2] There's people that swear by the Kronos, but I think they're crazy. IMO the Golem is waaaaaaay better. I don't know how it would do it a WH - seems like it could be advantageous to have more damage. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Omar Khayyam Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.17 08:28:00 - [3] i dont know about golem, but i have both kronos and a Vargur. Vargur does missions waaaaaaaaay beter than a kronos. At least for angel missions.. (after the ammo changes in projectile, i dont think vargur will do missions slower in other regions too) imho, kronos shuold be using blasters, but they have pathetically short range for missions, and railguns does not have enough tracking for hitting smaller ships. i can hit almost any orbitting cruier with my vargur, but with kronos, you need drones to do this which slows down your completition time.. so until hybrid weapons get some love, i'd choose golem (i am also training for it) or a vargur imho. ------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :)
NoNah	Posted - 2010.02.17 08:40:00 - [4] Couldn't really have said it better than the two posters above, but I'll atleast join the ranks. The Kronos is terrible as a pve ship, maybe - presumably - because it's the only marauder that doesn't(can't viably) use short range guns. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 105264
Alaik	Posted - 2010.02.17 09:03:00 - [5] Thank you for the replies. I appreciate the time. =)
Tyfuz	Posted - 2010.02.17 12:28:00 - [6] I also do mission with 2 char at the same time, using Kronos and Vargur and got the same result. Vargur is much faster then Kronos. I would use the Golem if i were you... and if i would choose between Vargur and Golem, i would use the Vargur.
Gul Rashen	Posted - 2010.02.17 12:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Alaik I would prefer the strongest overall ship, rather than speed at one particular mission/rat type If this is important for you there is no Choice
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO	Posted - 2010.02.17 13:16:00 - [8] Blasters and Rails are the two worst BS weapon systems for PvE. You can argue where torps,cruises,drones,autos,arty,beams,pulses go in the list of best Battle ship weapon system. There is little doubt where blasters and rails go in that list though.
Vherr Arkhar	Posted - 2010.02.17 13:50:00 - [9] I guess there are two possible answers to this: a) either all but blasters close range weapons arent close-rangy-enough. or b) Blaster are too close-rangy. As long as you get your 'close range high dps' weapon to ~55km you are set for 99% of all missions, and the few that arent, can be declined. If you dont get that far, you will spend time chasing the enemy, thus wasting time and spreading them out. "Chasing" in a BS with an AB at best is... well... FECKING SLOW! So, to make the kronos (and basically any other Hybrid ship) be 'viable in pve' (wich honestly is only a nice-to-have, considering the PvP nature of the game) is: a) make all other weaponsystems equally bad b) improve hybrids (you cant miss the thread - too lazy to link :P ) Untill then the golem wins... by kilometers. Heck, even a standard raven will be more usefull, just not tank as much.
Alaik	Posted - 2010.02.17 16:00:00 - [10] Thank you all for the input. I have been missioning with Gallente battleships for some time and been distinctly unimpressed with the speed I can complete missions compared to the speed at which I know other ships can do it. Primarily I am disappointed at the mediocre weaponry performance, and it's nice to know it's not just me. Caldari frigate queued now... cruiser in my cargo. =) The roleplayer in me is insisting I start a new character rather than betray my Gallente roots... but the part of me with 1.9mill in learning skills is talking much louder.

Daminma2 Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.17 16:01:00 - [11] I own a Golem, Kronos and Paladin. I am turning the Kronos into a salvage boat. Hope that helps.
Calistah Dari Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.17 16:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Daminma2 I own a Golem, Kronos and Paladin. I am turning the Kronos into a salvage boat. Hope that helps. I lol'd.
Alaik	Posted - 2010.02.17 16:27:00 - [13] Me too. =) Looks like the roleplayer in me is fighting back. Argh.
TargetPractise	Posted - 2010.02.17 16:30:00 - [14] :( I am finding much the same. I JUST spent my billion+ isk kitting out my Kronos to find what? That the 425mm rail fit has trouble hitting targets with AM charges because they get inside my optimal and the tracking sucks. I have also been finding that more often than not the missions put you close in, vs far off. I think my only solution is to go with blasters then use my alt in cruiseraven to take out anything further away than 25km...
Kedhar	Posted - 2010.02.18 11:50:00 - [15] Kronos is a viable mission ship with the right fit but sub par if you compare to the other marauders. Range: 36+30 -> 56+60 Tracking: 0.017 -> 0.036 DPS: 763 w/o Drones Tank: 819 [Kronos, Kronos Final copy 1] Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Cap Recharger II Federation Navy 425mm Railgun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Federation Navy 425mm Railgun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Federation Navy 425mm Railgun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Federation Navy 425mm Railgun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II The Kronos needs more drone bandwith (75->125) and a bigger drone bay (125->175) like the navy mega or better T2 short range ammo for the rails to be on par.
Songbird	Posted - 2010.02.18 12:06:00 - [16] shouldn't the vindi be the ship you're going for instead of kronos?
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.18 15:37:00 - [17] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 18/02/2010 15:38:20 Originally by: Vherr Arkhar I guess there are two possible answers to this: a) either all but blasters close range weapons arent close-rangy-enough. or b) Blaster are too close-rangy. Eah, to be honest, I always loved the "Sphere of Death" idea for Blasters, and if they buffed it to that end to preserve FLAVAR it wouldn't fix the range issue that the Kronos has. What I'd like to see happen to the Kronos would probably never see the light of day, but: Given that the Vidicator is now better than the Kronos for PVP, and similarly priced (last I checked), I'd like the Kronos to get a 5% drone damage bonus instead of the 10% web bonus, and it's drone bay/bandwidth increase by 50. PVE for Gallente always seemed to be about drones, it doesn't make sense for its Marauder to be different. Granted, it'd be spitting out tremendous damage that way compared to what it does currently, but what Marauder doesn't these days? (Hint: the Kronos.) ED: Hell, I'd also settle for just increasing the drone bay/bandwidth and keeping the current bonuses.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.02.18 15:38:00 - [18] Question (as in I don't fly rail-boats): What about a webber? Shouldn't the Kronos' web bonus help with the 425's tracking at short ranges? ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Nietzsche, and PvP"
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.18 15:57:00 - [19] Originally by: stoicfaux Question (as in I don't fly rail-boats): What about a webber? Shouldn't the Kronos' web bonus help with the 425's tracking at short ranges? yea, but the bigger problem is the lower damage at range I'd say.
NoNah	Posted - 2010.02.18 16:35:00 - [20] First off, lets seperate capable and viable. I dare say all ships in eve are capable of running level 4 combat missions. You might need spares, tactical warpouts and PLENTY of time, but they will in general be able to do it.(I know people who spent some insane isk on a badger and ran a mission in it) They're capable, but they're not viable. As is the kronos. The kronos puts out a whooping 650 dps where the other marauders does closer to the double that. That's the main issue. With blasters, it'd be perfectly viable, except, blasters just doesn't have the range, and even when in range it doesn't do that great damage. Even if you load up void, get them to sit right next to you and keep perfect tracking, you're looking at dps JUST above the Golem, under same conditions. Except the golem gets 40-45km range, rather than 7km. I'd like to see the tracking bonus be replaced with a optimal and falloff bonus at say 10%. That'd put Null(including 3x tracking computers with optimal scripts) at 24km and 46.5km falloff). That means, you'd be dealing some 550 dps at 40km, and 1000 at optimal, with the option of switching up ammotypes for shorter range. Sadly, it doesn't really work as it'd then be a more than viable pvp ship. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 609188

Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.18 16:36:00 - [21] I really dont worry about tracking on my kronos (against close range enemies where i dont need AB i use dual tracking comp + web), but the problem is the lack of damage. Simple fix would also be increasing its drone bandwidth. (150m^3/125BW would be ideal).
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2010.02.18 17:11:00 - [22] The Kronos as a ship is perfect the way it is. Fix hybrids. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Kedhar	Posted - 2010.02.18 18:43:00 - [23] Let us compare some viable lev4 setups. All level V / no imps / include reload time in dps. Paladin DPS: 772 / 968 (Scorch / Navy Multi) Range: 65+20 / 22+20 (Scorch / Navy Multi) Vargur DPS: 769 / 965 (Barrage / Navy Fusion) Range: 7.8+89 / 3.9+59 (Barrage / Navy Fusion) Kronos DPS: 698 / 708 (Navy Antimatter/ Javelin) Range: 52+60 / 26+60 (Navy Antimatter/ Javelin) Golem DPS: 785 / 1116 (Javelin / Rage) Range 54.7 / 32.4 (Javelin / Rage) Conclusion...... Fix rail t2 ammo!!! [Paladin, Paladin Final] Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor EM Hardener II Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Cap Recharger II Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II [Vargur, Vargur AC] Capacitor Flux Coil II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Core X-Type 100MN Afterburner Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Explosion Dampening Field II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II [Kronos, Kronos Final II] Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer Armor EM Hardener II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Cap Recharger II 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II [Golem, Golem Final II] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Cap Recharger II Caldari Navy Ballistic Deflection Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
xThugx	Posted - 2010.02.18 19:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Kedhar Conclusion...... Fix rail t2 ammo!!! by your numbers it looks to me like the ammo is not the only gimped thing.... (large rails)
NoNah	Posted - 2010.02.18 19:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Kedhar Let us compare some viable lev4 setups. All level V / no imps / include reload time in dps. Paladin DPS: 772 / 968 (Scorch / Navy Multi) Range: 65+20 / 22+20 (Scorch / Navy Multi) Vargur DPS: 769 / 965 (Barrage / Navy Fusion) Range: 7.8+89 / 3.9+59 (Barrage / Navy Fusion) Kronos DPS: 698 / 708 (Navy Antimatter/ Javelin) Range: 52+60 / 26+60 (Navy Antimatter/ Javelin) Golem DPS: 785 / 1116 (Javelin / Rage) Range 54.7 / 32.4 (Javelin / Rage) Conclusion...... Fix rail t2 ammo!!! The issue runs deeper than that. With your setups(which honestly could use some polishing, especially in this area): Paladin: 0.03164 - 0.06683 / 0.04219 - 0.08911 Vargur: 0.05569 - 0.09127 / 0.07452 - 0.12169 Kronos: 0.0124 - 0.02619 / 0.01653 - 0.03493 Rate of fire: Paladin: 4.34s Vargur: 4.38s Kronos: 5.26s And those are the main issues of using rails. Rate of fire is of course a "truth" as more comes to play. However, you will be instapopping alot of ships(which is also why you generally don't want to group your guns for missionsetups) and a slower rate of fire means slower rate of mission. This is the main reason why 1200mm artillery still works better than 1400mm arties for missions, in general. As to the crowd saying the kronos is fine, the weapon type are not, it's really not. THere's no single change you can do to blasters and rails to fix the situation without making the situation _horrible_ in the other end. You could increase range and tracking of blasters, and make the vindicator insane. You could greatly increase tracking and dps of rails, to make the mega and rokh the new fotm snipers. Or you could fix hybrids AND alter the ships who are still behind - such as the kronos. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 138891
Kedhar	Posted - 2010.02.18 20:08:00 - [26] Originally by: NoNah THere's no single change you can do to blasters and rails to fix the situation without making the situation _horrible_ in the other end. You could increase range and tracking of blasters, and make the vindicator insane. You could greatly increase tracking and dps of rails, to make the mega and rokh the new fotm snipers. Or you could fix hybrids AND alter the ships who are still behind - such as the kronos. From my point of view a single change to javelin ammo would make rails a good choice for pve. Give javelin 25% tracking BONUS an 20% more DMG an it will be fine.


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