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The US Marine Corps get to use more awesome ammo \o/

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.02.17 08:53:00 - [1] No more of this touchy feely full metal jacket nonsense. Now they're being issued 'open tip' (lol, politically correct for 'hollow point') match ammo. It's about time. BTHP match ammo is great for use on all sorts of pests. God bless the US Marines -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Freyya Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2010.02.17 09:13:00 - [2] ôWe need to be very clear in drawing this distinction: This is not a hollow-point round, which is not permitted,ö Brogan said. ôIt has been through law of land warfare review and has passed that review so that it meets the criteria of not causing unnecessary pain and suffering.ö As far as my gun/ammo knowledge goes (mainly from watching Future weapons with the overly enthousiastic former SEAL sniper)hollow points use softer materials and fragment on impact due to the wind friction and heat of the trajectory combined with the impact on surfaces. Open tips however still use harder materials and only are more lethal because they employ the tactic of pushing high velocity wind ahead of them which causes bigger entry and exit wounds. An extra punch to the impact of the bullet itself. However, as i said my ammo knowledge is strictly limited in that aspect so i could be totally wrong... Ohh and i doubt that if "He" exists he would bless any group of individuals in particular..No offense. ___________ NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.02.17 09:28:00 - [3] Freyya- No offense taken. :) I just threw that little bit in there at the end to be particularly facetious. And yes, "open tip" and "hollow point" are slightly different, but the differences are minimal at best. "Open Tip" is actually closer to a "soft point" design, where the jacket extends ahead of the exposed lead tip to fully enclose it. Hollow point ammunition is designed so that there is literally a hollow area inside the bullet where the cavity is either encompassed by the lead core, the jacket of copper, or both. The key difference with the "Open Tip" ammo is that while the tip is indeed 'open', the cavity beneath it isn't empty, it's filled with lead. Regardless of this one specific difference, both are expanding projectiles. This does make both designs superior anti-personnel rounds. To correct some of your previous info- wind friction and 'heat of the trajectory' have nothing to do with terminal ballistic performance for small arms ammunition, and indeed there is no such thing as 'heat of trajectory'. (lol) The materials used to make 'open tip' and 'hollow point ammunition are basically identical- lead and copper. It is possible to use 'harder' alloys of both lead and copper in the production of projectiles, but the hardness difference isn't an order of magnitude greater like it would be if you switched from copper to steel, or from steel to tungsten. There is no such thing as a "tactic" of "pushing high velocity wind" by a bullet. What you may be thinking of is the idea of hydrostatic shock and the accompanying hydrostatic shock waves that propagate within the human body after impact by a sufficiently high speed projectile. The usual base velocity for a violently effective hydrostatic shock wave is around 2300 feet per second (FPS) or so. This shock wave will break bones and cause crush damage to soft tissue far in advance of what the projectile proper will manage to do if the round hits with enough velocity. And for the record I'm not particularly religious. But I do like antagonizing those who are. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Freyya Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2010.02.17 09:41:00 - [4] I stand corrected in some of my used "terminology". As i said most of my "knowledge" comes from Mr. Mack and the program tends to favour some choice of words that where ment for the masses. Sometimes i just don't listen at all and fill in the blanks later since his voice and way of speach annoys me to say the least... Anyways, after reading up on hollow point ammo on wiki (open tip isn't exactly represented though i know the Lapua Magnum and other sniper rifle rounds can be of open tip design) i think it's safe to conclude that the hollow point does mushrooming and the open tip not so much? ___________ NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.02.17 10:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Freyya I stand corrected in some of my used "terminology". As i said most of my "knowledge" comes from Mr. Mack and the program tends to favour some choice of words that where ment for the masses. Sometimes i just don't listen at all and fill in the blanks later since his voice and way of speach annoys me to say the least... Anyways, after reading up on hollow point ammo on wiki (open tip isn't exactly represented though i know the Lapua Magnum and other sniper rifle rounds can be of open tip design) i think it's safe to conclude that the hollow point does mushrooming and the open tip not so much? Yes, that's an accurate understanding. :) -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2010.02.17 10:16:00 - [6] Hollow points are generally safer to use in urban environments that are portentially inhabiting by non intentional targets as they fragment and deterioraite significantly after hitting anything. The FMJ rounds however have a nasty habbit of bounching off and carrying more than lethal force still. The lethality of the Hollow points though is a great deal more serious in terms on damage done to internal organs as most impacts would generally shred internals where as a FMJ has the chance of passing on though entirely though and with luck surivive. Be glad we havent resorted to using mecuery capped hollow points or blended metal rounds. Both of those are extremly inhuman in the way they kill becasue they typically dont instantly kill and death is always certain to happen, lucking out from these rounds means it missed you entirely. Mercury capped jackets typically 'explode' voilently as the round gets shredded by the mercury tip causing wide spread world of hurt, provided you survive that injury the mercury is extremly toxic and will get you in the end. Blended metal rounds though I dont understand the full science behind it but when they enter a warm body (an oversight not seen on cold ballistic gel during tests) the multiple layers of the blends would form into razor thin (at that speed it might as well be a razor) rings of metal and further the round penetrates into the body more of these rings shred off the main round. Entrance wounds are small and there is typically no exit wound. A shot in the thigh will cause a lethal bleedout which caused one insurgent to die to secury arms firing on him with the rounds they where 'testing' on the field. Center mass shots where total messes on the inside, the ensuing report on the incident got these rounds banned by red cross and are not allowed to be used by legal combatants. Forgive any mis terminology I only know and only interested in general common knowledge not the exact specifications. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 10FEB10
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.02.17 10:27:00 - [7] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 17/02/2010 10:31:36 Dood, mercury? Seriously?... The amount of bizarre or completely fictional information some people come up with is just amazing. http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/mercury_in_bullet.html -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Flap jak Fleetworks Primary.	Posted - 2010.02.17 11:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 17/02/2010 10:31:36 Dood, mercury? Seriously?... The amount of bizarre or completely fictional information some people come up with is just amazing. http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/mercury_in_bullet.html well I just learned a lot about the properties of mercury! pretty cool stuff. __
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.02.17 11:55:00 - [9] Edited by: Thuranni on 17/02/2010 11:56:37 **** yes I am incredibly enthusiastic about tools to murder my fellow man. I am a caveman and a animal.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2010.02.17 12:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 17/02/2010 10:31:36 Dood, mercury? Seriously?... The amount of bizarre or completely fictional information some people come up with is just amazing. http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/mercury_in_bullet.html They're very expensive and tbh I wouldnt buy one due to illegallities of and the good chance of improper manufacture. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 10FEB10
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.02.17 12:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Nova Fox Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 17/02/2010 10:31:36 Dood, mercury? Seriously?... The amount of bizarre or completely fictional information some people come up with is just amazing. http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/mercury_in_bullet.html They're very expensive and tbh I wouldnt buy one due to illegallities of and the good chance of improper manufacture. I guess it's just not sinking in. There is no such thing as 'mercury filled bullets'. Being legal or not (they're not illegal) has nothing to do with it. And the terminal ballistic effects of a mercury filled projectile would be complete crap when compared to projectiles of more traditional construction. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2010.02.17 13:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Nova Fox Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 17/02/2010 10:31:36 Dood, mercury? Seriously?... The amount of bizarre or completely fictional information some people come up with is just amazing. http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/mercury_in_bullet.html They're very expensive and tbh I wouldnt buy one due to illegallities of and the good chance of improper manufacture. I guess it's just not sinking in. There is no such thing as 'mercury filled bullets'. Being legal or not (they're not illegal) has nothing to do with it. And the terminal ballistic effects of a mercury filled projectile would be complete crap when compared to projectiles of more traditional construction. Practicallity is the issue, doesnt mean they never existed. The article you linked just shows a man who poorly tried to contruct such round 20 years ago when it was back then poorly understood to be capable of working. The bottom line people have tried and so far as an explosive round its not that much easier to pull off in compare to say putting an acutal explosive compound in the pocket, manufacuting an effective mercury round requires to much precison effort for effect. And yes such round are illegal in the states ATF banned it 40 odd years ago citing destructive device. Not sure where you live in europe though but the stories surrounding the mercury capped bullet probably sprang up around US president JFK's assination though proof and evidence are non existent to the point of non stop conspiracy fuel. Still wouldn't surprise me if there is somone out there still trying to engineer the damn thing, thoery is sound in the end practicallity isnt. The blended metal round did once upon a time existed and the teflon bullet popping up in fiction lately is purely nonexistent nobody's even tried to make one. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 10FEB10
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.17 14:05:00 - [13] Don't really get what you're trying to say... Open tip/hollow point have less chance to cause colleteral damage, and a better chance of killing lightly/unarmored combatants... THEY'RE bullets, you know small metal things designed to kill people... using better bullets that kill more consistently isn't exactly a huge deal IMO.
Haxfar Portlaind	Posted - 2010.02.17 14:08:00 - [14] Edited by: Haxfar Portlaind on 17/02/2010 14:10:27 Personally i would like to see them use a higher cal. FMJ rather than a small cal. and ten a expanding bullet. Why? High-cal + FMJ - You can penetrate body-armor and walls easier. - higher stopping power. (imo it's better to stop a man, than just make a big hole in him) - lethality. While the man did stop, there's a higher change for him to survive, same goes to blue-on-blue situations... - you get a natural better trajectory, as the bullet is more stream-lined, meaning bigger accuracy (tho it might only be a little bit).
Bodrul Caldari Polaris Rising Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.17 14:20:00 - [15] this is f*ed up you cant use hollow points on people hell bent on killing you yet in the UK police can use hollow points (and majority of the time the weapons used on civilians) and yes i know these are US forces (replys mostly aimed at the law which is against hollow points on battle field) ........ Buy Animated Talking Video Avatars**
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.17 14:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Haxfar Portlaind Edited by: Haxfar Portlaind on 17/02/2010 14:10:27 Personally i would like to see them use a higher cal. FMJ rather than a small cal. and ten a expanding bullet. Why? High-cal + FMJ - You can penetrate body-armor and walls easier. - higher stopping power. (imo it's better to stop a man, than just make a big hole in him) - lethality. While the man did stop, there's a higher change for him to survive, same goes to blue-on-blue situations... - you get a natural better trajectory, as the bullet is more stream-lined, meaning bigger accuracy (tho it might only be a little bit). Yeah so they shoot through the civilian 3 walls back while stopping the man. And non insta kill shots result in a high chance of a target still able to shoot back, which isn't exactly the point of shooting him in the first place. The nature of war has changed, and taking someone out of the fight with a debilitating injury isn't enough anymore. As long as they can breath, and pull a trigger they're the same threat they where before you shot them.
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr S'Dijana Technologies	Posted - 2010.02.17 14:53:00 - [17] Does this make it less effective against armor? - Nobody gets rich in this business. You simply obtain new levels of relative poverty.
Haxfar Portlaind	Posted - 2010.02.17 15:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Does this make it less effective against armor? I was thinking the exactly same. I think it does, as the bullet delivers the kinetic energy over a bigger area (albeit not that much bigger), plus the nose does will not have the same "needle" effect.
Rowdy Yates Caldari Redneck Rangers	Posted - 2010.02.17 15:16:00 - [19] It's always better to be killed or maimed with an approved weapon system than one that's not approved. Man-monkey, the best monkey.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.17 15:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Does this make it less effective against armor? Yeah it does, a lot less effective AFAIK. But when your fighting people that aren't using any, that's not really the issue.
Last Wolf Rage For Order	Posted - 2010.02.17 17:49:00 - [21] should just use incinerating rounds IMO Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.17 18:06:00 - [22] you are freaking shooting people, how do the ethical qualities of the bullet come into the discussion?! but **** yea to anything that makes a marine more deadly! Oh boy, open tip is a fun google search, not recommended for work
Solidarity Lost	Posted - 2010.02.17 19:23:00 - [23] wait a minute, don't cause unnecesary pain and suffering? because that whole invasion of the middle east thing with the killing of thousands of people, that was necessary rite
blood red	Posted - 2010.02.17 21:32:00 - [24] screw you and your "god" you know the other side believes they fight for "god" too, but your both just gangs of psychopaths, with sociopaths for leaders. observation has proven to me that unstable people follow "news" like this. you probably got the warm fuzzies when you thought of an insurgent taking one of these to the chest.
Zubenelgenubi Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.17 22:10:00 - [25] Quote: you probably got the warm fuzzies when you thought of an insurgent taking one of these to the chest. mmmm didn't we all. ______________________________________________ Improvise, Adapt, Overcome & Annihilate
Zyck Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.17 22:26:00 - [26] Originally by: blood red observation has proven to me that unstable people follow "news" like this. you probably got the warm fuzzies when you thought of an insurgent taking one of these to the chest. I know I do. Observation has shown to me that people who classify others as "unstable" while going on a rant about "god" and mental stability are in fact angry people. I saw it myself.
JordanParey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.02.17 22:38:00 - [27] Originally by: blood red you probably got the warm fuzzies when you thought of an insurgent taking one of these to the chest. I do, because it means that fellow soldiers and the US Marines don't have to waste two or three more rounds trying to incapacitate someone. Killzone efficiency ftw
MAXSuicide Cosmic Fusion	Posted - 2010.02.18 01:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Solidarity Lost wait a minute, don't cause unnecesary pain and suffering? because that whole invasion of the middle east thing with the killing of thousands of people, that was necessary rite ignorant political poster no.1 in this thread? i stopped at seeing this rubbishy post.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.02.18 01:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Irulan S'Dijana Does this make it less effective against armor? Yes, it does, compared to stuff like M855 and M998 (steel and tungsten core respectively) ball ammo. But that's the whole point of this particular ammo and the particular AO (area of operations) it's being used in. Generally speaking the enemy combatants aren't wearing body armor so they've developed a new round that is optimized for killing targets that don't have body armor. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Alchemist Zemont Gallente Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.02.18 01:51:00 - [30] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 17/02/2010 09:13:17 No more of this touchy feely full metal jacket nonsense. Now they're being issued 'open tip' (lol, politically correct for 'hollow point') match ammo. It's about time. BTHP match ammo is great for use on all sorts of pests. God bless the US Marines More info: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf Personally I want them to legalise flamethrowers and tanks, that way I can protect my home and since anyone these days can get access it would be fun watching a *****ed person with a flamethrower will make me laugh loads when they burn someone running around in flames. Dude we should like totally go on face of death and laugh at all the dead people If they put a "only skinny people can own a fire arm" I am certain that would fix the REAL problem in USA ;) ______________________________________ Due to a high amount of tears and childish behaviour I wont say anything negative, wouldnt want to make anymore people cry :'(*

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