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Piracy vs. Griefing: A General Guide

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Xornicon Altair Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:08:00 - [1] Edited by: Xornicon Altair on 22/02/2010 08:10:04 I've seen many threads on here complaining about "high sec griefers" and many other colorful refrences. I'm making this thread to clearly explain the difference between Piracy and Griefing so that those of you whom see fit to complain about it can do so correctly. This explination is as it relates to EVE and possibly some other MMOs and is not necessarily the real-world reflection of these terms. Piracy: Pirates, or those engaging in "piracy", are individuals, fleets, corporations, or alliances that accept the risks of their actions so that they may conduct Player versus Player operations in any level of "security" space. This includes, but is not limited to, high-sec suicide ganking, lowsec ganking, lowsec gate/station camping, can flipping, "broken" 1v1s, etc. All actions that can be considered piracy are those actions that cause ingame consequences such as agression timers, being concorded, and providing others with kill-rights. High-sec wardecs are not considered piracy as the wardec itself can be considered an additional warning over and above the normal level of caution recommended in EVE, and the wardec applies 0.0-like rules on combat. Griefing: As a general rule, Griefing is anything that breaks the EVE Rules of Conduct: http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp. To qualify as Griefing, and not just Piracy, a player, gang, corp, or alliance must consistantly target you specifically in a repeated and consistant fashion and not be doing so to "everyone". For example: If you are missioning and every time you enter a mission, they probe you down and kill you, but are not doing so to any other missioners at all, ever, then you might have a case for "harassment", which is a violation of rule #1 of the EVE Rules of Conduct. If, on the other hand, those same people are probing down every mission they can find in that system and killing everyone (via suicide or otherwise), then no case can be made of harassment, just an inability to learn and move on to another missioning area. Griefing can also come in the form of harassment in local or other public chats. Statements that are " abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language" (reference: EVE Rules of Conduct #2) can be considered Griefing. Rather than going through each rule and providing examples, I highly recommend that you go and read the Rules of Conduct so that you know what is and is not acceptable. In Conclusion: It doesn't matter what MMO you came from or what you think the rules should be, the simple fact in EVE is that if it's within game mechanics and not in violation of the Rules of Conduct, it's permitted and therefore a waste of time to petition. Piracy is legit, Griefing is not. Don't like these rules? Talk with your pocketbook and find another game. ----- CCP! Show Us The Alliance Logos!
Lana Torrin Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:09:00 - [2] Pathetic Lana's new bounty system.
Alchemist's Alt Gallente Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:14:00 - [3] Originally by: 27 If you are between 13 and 18 years of age, you must have the permission of your parent or guardian to before providing the personal information required to create an EVE Online game or website account. Xornicon do you have permission? FIRST!!
Xornicon Altair Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:17:00 - [4] Originally by: Alchemist's Alt Originally by: 27 If you are between 13 and 18 years of age, you must have the permission of your parent or guardian to before providing the personal information required to create an EVE Online game or website account. Xornicon do you have permission? I'm younger than 13, so, I don't need permission. ----- CCP! Show Us The Alliance Logos!
Lana Torrin Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:19:00 - [5] Originally by: Xornicon Altair Originally by: Alchemist's Alt Originally by: 27 If you are between 13 and 18 years of age, you must have the permission of your parent or guardian to before providing the personal information required to create an EVE Online game or website account. Xornicon do you have permission? I'm younger than 13, so, I don't need permission. I wish there was a thumbs up icon on these boards sometimes... Lana's new bounty system.
Xornicon Altair Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:39:00 - [6] There must be a record here. It took me less than 10 minutes to derail my own thread. ----- CCP! Show Us The Alliance Logos!
Paknac Queltel Standards and Practices	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Xornicon Altair There must be a record here. It took me less than 10 minutes to derail my own thread. Lemme rerail it by TL;DRing it: Griefing: Be consistently crappy to one person/corp, ignoring other chances to be crappy. Fair play: Be crappy to everyone
Omgah The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:49:00 - [8] Originally by: Lana Torrin Pathetic
RasTrent Minmatar Wham.	Posted - 2010.02.22 08:58:00 - [9] i consider this op to be griefing me with this post ------------------- Public Ragelations
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.02.22 09:03:00 - [10] Pathetic ~ Soar Like a Penguin
Dracoknight Strategic Syndicate Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2010.02.22 09:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Lana Torrin Pathetic ____________________ I wish my Thorax could use missiles...
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.02.22 10:16:00 - [12] Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 22/02/2010 10:16:46 I tend to use different definitions: Griefing: Activity specifically intended for the purpose of causing grief, at no gain to oneself aside from perhaps the satisfaction of having caused grief. Note that EVE doesn't make this illegal. Griefing is not the same as harassment. The word may have a negative connotation to some, but this is a better definition than harassment, which is against the rules. Piracy: Activity outside the bounds of the in-game laws to make profit. So lets go over some examples. Suiciding newbie frigates right outside of starting stations for lulz - Griefing. Consistently scanning down and suicide ganking one mission runner because you know he always fits expensive and offers profit - Piracy Nullsec soldier - Neither, he isn't a pirate because 0.0 is lawless, just a PvPer, all activities would fall under regular PvP. Gate camping lowsec in the hopes of ransoming people or destroying them for decent loot - Pirate Scanning down a mission, looting the completion objective, and offering to sell it back at a reasonable sum - Pirate As above, but offering to sell it back for "a bajillion kazillion ISK" - Griefer Can flipping a mining BS/Hulk - Piracy Can flipping a newbie in a mining frigate - Griefing Ninja looting/salvaging either because it is a good income for you (newbies/people with bad revenue streams) - Piracy (yes, I know salvaging isn't illegal, but these two things go hand in hand) Ninja looting/salvaging for the lulz - Griefing War deccing a filthy rich group of hisec carebears with juicy officer ships - Piracy War deccing newbie_corp_01 who's best pilot flies a T2-fitted Dominix - Griefing Tricking idiots and newbies into giving you their stuff - Piracy Tricking idiots and newbies into voluntarily destroying their own stuff - Griefing I could go on, but the basic line is drawn at whether what you hope to get out of it is ISK or tears, although these are rarely mutually exclusive. Some activities aren't so clear-cut (roaming around lowsec ganking people can be good for tears and ISK) while some activites are obviously more weighted towards griefing (blowing up newbies who have absolutely nothing is just for tears, not ISK).
Paknac Queltel Standards and Practices	Posted - 2010.02.22 10:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame words Scamming and thievery both aren't piracy. The word 'pirate' is used too easily.
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.02.22 13:44:00 - [14] Griefing : Anything that makes you giggle for more than 20s. Piracy : Wenches and mead.
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.02.22 13:54:00 - [15] Originally by: TraininVain Griefing : Anything that makes you giggle for more than 20s. CCCCCCCCC CCCCCCCCC CCC CCC CCC CCC CCCCCCCCC CCCCCCCCC
Terra Mikael Private Nuisance	Posted - 2010.02.22 14:30:00 - [16] I think i understand! OP = Victim ___________ Proof that Daniel Jackson is a ret@rded furry
Harassment Panda Lead Farmers	Posted - 2010.02.22 14:36:00 - [17] Look at all dem words
Midge Mo'yb Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.22 15:01:00 - [18] griefing = Buzzword bears cry when someone does something they dont like QQ -----------------------------------------------
Dreadpirate Jones	Posted - 2010.02.22 15:45:00 - [19] I think you (op) are wrong, and the harassment you're talking about is simply that. The distinction between griefing and piracy is much simpler, in my opinion. Griefing: Doing it for the lols. Piracy: Doing it for the money (and the lols). To be a pirate in EVE is a career choice, and, as such, it is about making money. If you don't at least try get money out of it, then it's not piracy, but something else. That's griefing as far as I understand it.
Alchemist's Alt Gallente Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.02.22 16:03:00 - [20] tbh the first 3 rules get broken by everyone the second they post Also revised 2008 lol? FIRST!!
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.02.22 16:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Dreadpirate Jones I think you (op) are wrong, and the harassment you're talking about is simply that. The distinction between griefing and piracy is much simpler, in my opinion. Griefing: Doing it for the lols. Piracy: Doing it for the money (and the lols). To be a pirate in EVE is a career choice, and, as such, it is about making money. If you don't at least try get money out of it, then it's not piracy, but something else. That's griefing as far as I understand it. Wrong. In this game piracy is simply the act of PvP in lowsec while having a negative sec status. Virtually nobody who labels themselves or is labeled as a pirate actually does it for the money. ----- http://evenewb.blogspot.com/ Please re-size your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Dreadpirate Jones	Posted - 2010.02.22 16:13:00 - [22] Originally by: Spectre3353 Originally by: Dreadpirate Jones I think you (op) are wrong, and the harassment you're talking about is simply that. The distinction between griefing and piracy is much simpler, in my opinion. Griefing: Doing it for the lols. Piracy: Doing it for the money (and the lols). To be a pirate in EVE is a career choice, and, as such, it is about making money. If you don't at least try get money out of it, then it's not piracy, but something else. That's griefing as far as I understand it. Wrong. In this game piracy is simply the act of PvP in lowsec while having a negative sec status. Virtually nobody who labels themselves or is labeled as a pirate actually does it for the money. So being a "pirate" in EVE has nothing to do with the RL definition of what a pirate is? Good to know.
pleasefixthis	Posted - 2010.02.22 18:30:00 - [23] the problem word isnt grief. its pirate. piracy- an act of robbery on the high seas. ergo everything not involving robbery is something else.
Morgan Rose Blood Money Inc. The Blood Money Cartel	Posted - 2010.02.22 18:32:00 - [24] Originally by: Spectre3353 Virtually nobody who labels themselves or is labeled as a pirate actually does it for the money. Confirming that Spectre and I are both broke.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.02.22 20:43:00 - [25] Originally by: Spectre3353 Originally by: Dreadpirate Jones Piracy: Doing it for the money (and the lols). To be a pirate in EVE is a career choice, and, as such, it is about making money. If you don't at least try get money out of it, then it's not piracy, but something else. That's griefing as far as I understand it. Wrong. In this game piracy is simply the act of PvP in lowsec while having a negative sec status. Virtually nobody who labels themselves or is labeled as a pirate actually does it for the money. Then they are aren't very good pirates. Probably because they are fundamentally low sec pvpers whose existance overlaps significantly with pirates but they have a different approach. They will often play the roll of pirates they just don't do it with the same style. From a pirates perspective low sec pvpers who are happy to lose isk pvping are part of our source of income. Plus they get really ****ed when you won't 1v1 them after you killed their gang and tell you they have lost all respect for you. I love that line.
GoGo Rens	Posted - 2010.02.23 22:00:00 - [26] Greifing = somebody dindt get the joke
Zedrik Cayne Gallente Standards and Practices	Posted - 2010.02.23 22:26:00 - [27] 0/10 Poorly written guide. No tips on how to grief, pirate, or combat grievers with pirates or vice versa. -- Originally by: "RedSplat" You're the internet equivalent of a Deepfried Mars bar filled with stupid.
Triple Entendre Emergence Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.23 22:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Morgan Rose Originally by: Spectre3353 Virtually nobody who labels themselves or is labeled as a pirate actually does it for the money. Confirming that Spectre and I are both broke. ...And my axe! Or at least an IOU until I can afford one.
Mitchell Hagen	Posted - 2010.02.24 01:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Consistently scanning down and suicide ganking one mission runner because you know he always fits expensive and offers profit - Piracy I broadly agree with most of your post but I disagree with the quoted portion. Consistently scanning down and suicide ganking one mission runner - You may view it as piracy but the victim would class it as harassment; the victim would have legitimate grounds to file a harassment petition against you. Suppose you used the motive in the rest of your sentence as your explanation to a GM as your defence against account suspension: because you know he always fits expensive and offers profit If that was your sole defence, I wouldn't like your chances of avoiding an account suspension. There is no profit to be made from piracy with a suspended account. By all means engage in piracy but be careful not to break the rules when doing so.
Radgette	Posted - 2010.02.24 02:42:00 - [30] Edited by: Radgette on 24/02/2010 02:43:09 Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Edited by: Tulisin Dragonflame on 22/02/2010 10:16:46 So lets go over some examples. Suiciding newbie frigates right outside of starting stations for lulz - Griefing. this will also get you banned :p the only places "safe" from the joys of EVE are noobie systems and griefing in them is bannable this includes can flipping etc
Adelina Jasna	Posted - 2010.02.24 05:34:00 - [31] Edited by: Adelina Jasna on 24/02/2010 05:33:50 Cool story bro Edit: Second page snipe.
Laina Delapore Caldari Red Sun Industries	Posted - 2010.02.24 09:42:00 - [32] ^ this is an act of forum piracy. The person who believe consistently killing off the same mission-runner would constitute harassment...well, no. It -might- constitute harassment if the pirate in question suicide-ganked that player, repeatedly, whenever and wherever he saw them, regardless of whether they were in a pod, Ibis or a fully faction-fitted Navy Raven. However, if the same pirate consistently baits the same mission-runner into engaging in said fully-factioned CNR, and consistently defeats him and takes his stuff; then it's not harassment, it's Social Darwinism in action. Even if the pirate consistently suicide-ganked the same CNR, I doubt CCP would consider this harassment. The mission runner is, after all, free to move systems away from the ganker, get friends(alts) with RR in, hire mercs to wardec the ganker, or stop using a faction fitted Navy issue ship to run missions; thus eliminating the ganker's profit.
Mitchell Hagen	Posted - 2010.02.25 02:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Laina Delapore ^ this be an act of forum piracy. Avast! I be fixin' it for ya. Originally by: Laina Delapore The person who believe consistently killing off the same mission-runner would constitute harassment...well, no. It -might- constitute harassment if the pirate in question suicide-ganked that player, repeatedly, whenever and wherever he saw them, regardless of whether they were in a pod, Ibis or a fully faction-fitted Navy Raven. However, if the same pirate consistently baits the same mission-runner into engaging in said fully-factioned CNR, and consistently defeats him and takes his stuff; then it's not harassment, it's Social Darwinism in action. Even if the pirate consistently suicide-ganked the same CNR, I doubt CCP would consider this harassment. The mission runner is, after all, free to move systems away from the ganker, get friends(alts) with RR in, hire mercs to wardec the ganker, or stop using a faction fitted Navy issue ship to run missions; thus eliminating the ganker's profit. Yes, it does depend greatly on the circumstances and we could argue the point and make up examples and counter-examples all day. However, if the victim does file a harassment petition then all bets are off. Neither you nor I would be in a position to judge if it is harassment. It is up to the GM who assesses the petition and the prevailing circumstances. I'm just pointing out the possibility of harassment petitions because I don't want to see a player getting banned for trying this without being aware of all the consequences. I may be incorrect in how far one can push it before the harassment banhammer descends, but I feel it would be a greater wrong if someone was banned for mistakenly thinking that piracy and griefing were the only considerations before ganking the same victim several times. The rules come into play, too.
Fogg Amarr NON PROPERO	Posted - 2010.02.27 10:56:00 - [34] Edited by: Fogg on 27/02/2010 11:00:37 Just like to point out then when bored I routenly flip and pop people in non noob space (.9 and below), battleship or mining tristan, who cares. What does profit have to do with it? Your flying a mining ship you dont have squat, its always for the lulz. Unless you consider a cheap gank of a km profit. Does mission invasion count as grief? Thats fun too. Nothing like blowing up carebears battleships in missions and hear the WAILING of the tears in local. Oh hey its a merlin guis we have 3 bs in our bear squad he stole our wreck QUICK SHOOT HIM. oh crap we cant break merlin tank wtf why are four logistic ships here now, whats going on!!!1111. No My raven is slowing melting nooooo, nothing like watching ur multi mil raven get slowly eroded away by a merlin with 4 logis giving it infinite tank. Again, for the lulz And then theres trickery and guile. is that griefing? GF meet belt 1-1 ill give you ur stuff back, since its junk to me. Thanks! be right there., noob_01, who you popped 5 minutes earlier in his retreiver over a jetcan, warps in in his brand new tristan to get his stuff. He grabs the can and you pop him again. For the lulz And finally theres wardecking carebear alliances, in highsec, you know the ones that claim were moving to 0.0 and taking space and all that jazz. The ones that recruit any one and everyone. Nothing is more fun than fighting them, camping them and generally causing their alliance to collapse. After a week of war let them recoup for a few weeks, grow some more corps, and then redeck em and cull them like animals going to the slaugther. Dont even get me started on meta gaming, corp/vent(epic vent recordings on youtube for the lulz. infiltration(Guiding hand social club esque type corps) , asset/hanger pilfering, and general thievery. Griefing as you say, he resulted in both goon and bobs downfall has been the death of many corps I would imagine. ALl of the above is potentially considering griefing but iv never been banned or warned or has anyone I know, so I say grief away. Just dont use vulgar language in local, or suicide gank noobs inside noob starter systems and your golden. Just remember, ITS ALWAYS FOR THE LULZ (and the killmail) Oh and slightly off topic but if you send me isk ingame ill send you back 3 times as much, when I log on tomarrow. Because im that rich and I really need to give back to the community. edit for paragraphs
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.27 18:31:00 - [35] Originally by: Fogg Edited by: Fogg on 27/02/2010 11:00:37 Just like to point out then when bored I routenly flip and pop people in non noob space (.9 and below), battleship or mining tristan, who cares. What does profit have to do with it? Your flying a mining ship you dont have squat, its always for the lulz. Unless you consider a cheap gank of a km profit. Does mission invasion count as grief? Thats fun too. Nothing like blowing up carebears battleships in missions and hear the WAILING of the tears in local. Oh hey its a merlin guis we have 3 bs in our bear squad he stole our wreck QUICK SHOOT HIM. oh crap we cant break merlin tank wtf why are four logistic ships here now, whats going on!!!1111. No My raven is slowing melting nooooo, nothing like watching ur multi mil raven get slowly eroded away by a merlin with 4 logis giving it infinite tank. Again, for the lulz And then theres trickery and guile. is that griefing? GF meet belt 1-1 ill give you ur stuff back, since its junk to me. Thanks! be right there., noob_01, who you popped 5 minutes earlier in his retreiver over a jetcan, warps in in his brand new tristan to get his stuff. He grabs the can and you pop him again. For the lulz And finally theres wardecking carebear alliances, in highsec, you know the ones that claim were moving to 0.0 and taking space and all that jazz. The ones that recruit any one and everyone. Nothing is more fun than fighting them, camping them and generally causing their alliance to collapse. After a week of war let them recoup for a few weeks, grow some more corps, and then redeck em and cull them like animals going to the slaugther. Dont even get me started on meta gaming, corp/vent(epic vent recordings on youtube for the lulz. infiltration(Guiding hand social club esque type corps) , asset/hanger pilfering, and general thievery. Griefing as you say, he resulted in both goon and bobs downfall has been the death of many corps I would imagine. ALl of the above is potentially considering griefing but iv never been banned or warned or has anyone I know, so I say grief away. Just dont use vulgar language in local, or suicide gank noobs inside noob starter systems and your golden. Just remember, ITS ALWAYS FOR THE LULZ (and the killmail) Oh and slightly off topic but if you send me isk ingame ill send you back 3 times as much, when I log on tomarrow. Because im that rich and I really need to give back to the community. edit for paragraphs Wish you would have edited for stupidity.
Terra Mikael Private Nuisance	Posted - 2010.02.28 10:50:00 - [36] As a general rule: It's only grief play if the balls touch ___________ Proof that Daniel Jackson is a ret@rded furry

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