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Paladin VS Machariel for Angel Ex

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Talor Vet Amarr Urban Decay.	Posted - 2010.02.23 15:39:00 - [1] Hi all, As per title, Looking if it would be better to fly the Mach instead of my paladin in Angel Ex. My Paladin = standard Tach T2 fit / Faction Multi crystals [Machariel, Angels Ex] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II DG Ballistic Deflection Field DG Explosion Dampening Field Invulnerability Field II Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery, Republic Fleet Fusion L Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery, Republic Fleet Fusion L Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery, Republic Fleet Fusion L Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery, Republic Fleet Fusion L Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery, Republic Fleet Fusion L Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery, Republic Fleet Fusion L Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery, Republic Fleet Fusion L Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Reason Ive added faction on the mach is due to skills * with the mach I will not salvage, my alt will do that. So is it worth the added time training for the mach or should I stick to my paladin. Comments...
Shadowy Assistant	Posted - 2010.02.23 15:41:00 - [2] What a horrible Machariel fit
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.02.23 15:45:00 - [3] Originally by: Shadowy Assistant What a horrible Machariel fit . . . says the man whos never witnessed a mach with 3x gyro/TE ganking an angel mission. im a x-l -> dual DS small tanking guy however. two slots for a weak tank vs an XL with cap booster, makes the XL the better option due to the huge potential overtank imo. an mach even with a really bad fit, as long as it has a gyro or two and a TE or two is always going to be LOADS faster than a paladin.
Talor Vet Amarr Urban Decay.	Posted - 2010.02.23 15:52:00 - [4] should of mentioned this will be flying with a golem pilot my mach fit is pure gank as the golem should handle the aggro
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.23 15:54:00 - [5] Originally by: Dr Fighter an mach even with a really bad fit, as long as it has a gyro or two and a TE or two is always going to be LOADS faster than a paladin.. . against angels Yep. There really isn't a way you can set up the Paladin to make up for the fact that it shoots the worst damage type again Angels, while the Mach will be shooting the best.
Talor Vet Amarr Urban Decay.	Posted - 2010.02.23 15:58:00 - [6] Edited by: Talor Vet on 23/02/2010 15:59:49 I'm happy to take constructive criticism on my fit or how to better it any thoughts? My idea stated above is golem pilot tanks and while my mach ganks the mission but still has enought tank as a safety net incase the mach gets aggro
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.02.23 16:18:00 - [7] Edited by: Dr Fighter on 23/02/2010 16:19:22 3x gyro II, 3x TE II, DCU II 100mn AB, x-l booster II, 2x invul II, Heavy cap injector II OR boost amp II (boost amp if your not going to tank much at all, injector if your likly to need to boost fro a while) 7x 800mm auto IIs + whatever rigs: whatever really, best to go tank so core defence cap sa***aurds and an anti-em would work fine.
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.23 16:19:00 - [8] tractor beam in free high. otherwise, i prefer XL booster and afterburner. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel
Shadowy Assistant	Posted - 2010.02.23 16:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Dr Fighter Edited by: Dr Fighter on 23/02/2010 15:48:36 Originally by: Shadowy Assistant What a horrible Machariel fit two slots for a weak tank vs an XL with cap booster, makes the XL the better option due to the huge potential overtank imo. This. I wasn't complaining about the lowslots, but the CCCs and the small shield boosters make me cry. Cap Booster + X-L will be much more useful. When your Mach pulls some aggro, the pulsed X-L booster can hold the incoming DPS much more effectively than the dual boosters. The dual small booster fit might not even hold out before you can kill off incoming DPS and you will have to warp the Mach out.
Susy Assulu Caldari Atomic Mexicans	Posted - 2010.02.23 16:28:00 - [10] Golem should do fine on its own no need for the mach to be there, take it pvping or something.

Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.02.23 16:32:00 - [11] oh i almost missed the guns, even if oyu cant use t2 guns yet i wouldnt invest in faction guns, not being able to use barrage for 5% more damage over best named isnt worth the isk, faction gyros would be far better overall for less isk.
Talor Vet Amarr Urban Decay.	Posted - 2010.02.23 16:40:00 - [12] Edited by: Talor Vet on 23/02/2010 16:42:30 Think the reason I was going CCC's is that I am mostly an amarr ship mission runner, Cap stable = staying alive on such cap hungry ships now ive put my minmatar head on, I suppose the 3 x CCCs were overkill and as long as you pulse the XL booster & AB when needed then cap shouldnt be an issue. I only mentioned the 2 X Pithi B-Types small boosters since they work well for the golem/cnr fits but again the mach is a total different beast... thanks for the feed back and tips Edit: Point taken regarding the faction guns, taken them off and added faction gyros instead to my shopping list
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.23 16:51:00 - [13] it should do well, just why the dg hardeners? (hmm might have found it) and heh, my eft is showing that is cap stable with 1 ccc (I think that is a valid reason to keep the dg hardeners). hmm what to do with the other 2 rig slots the only thing I would think that I'd want on a mach is a nice deadspace afterburner and I still have a bit over 2 weeks on t2 large projectiles.
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.02.23 17:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Talor Vet should of mentioned this will be flying with a golem pilot my mach fit is pure gank as the golem should handle the aggro You'll waste a ton of time waiting for the Golem to catch aggro before you can move in the Mach. Fit a microwarpdrive to the Machariel (it works in AE) and just solo it in the mach, it's pathetically easy in that ship. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.23 17:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Talor Vet should of mentioned this will be flying with a golem pilot my mach fit is pure gank as the golem should handle the aggro You'll waste a ton of time waiting for the Golem to catch aggro before you can move in the Mach. Fit a microwarpdrive to the Machariel (it works in AE) and just solo it in the mach, it's pathetically easy in that ship. heh right I hear mwds work in most missions now.... going to have to rethink some things.
Talor Vet Amarr Urban Decay.	Posted - 2010.02.23 18:28:00 - [16] Is this true that MWDs work in AE? /me walks off to play again with this fit
Miriiah	Posted - 2010.02.23 19:09:00 - [17] Don't fit Kin hardenr vs Angel, either invuln + exp + sba (invuln + exp if 2 hardners), or invuln/invuln/exp 4th Gyro over DCU, 1 t2 ambit over a CCC for a tiny bit more falloff and it's fine really, domination/RF 100mn AB is handy, the ship is really agile and fast Also, Barrage isn't worth using anymore really, very situational
Talor Vet Amarr Urban Decay.	Posted - 2010.02.23 20:09:00 - [18] Well after EFT whoring like never before it is defo worth training for the mach for my angel missions with your feed back I have come up with something I think will work for me but this is going to be one of those where I'm going to have to actually run AE a few times with it and see if I can refine the set up thanks everyone for the replies
Admiral Pelleon White Shadow Imperium	Posted - 2010.02.23 20:20:00 - [19] The mach is better at Angels by far. I have a corp mate with one and he can finish at least 30% faster with 800's than I can with tachyons on the paladin. ________ Real men fly Amarr.
Yves Nat Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.28 16:15:00 - [20] I have just started using a Machariel and it inhales missions, especially Angels. I did Unauthorized Military presence in 21 minutes yesterday, and that included time spent salvaging some wrecks. Compared with the OP fit, this is my fit: Lows = Same Mids = AB II/Invuln II/Explosive Hardener II/Kinetic Hardener II/Cap Recharger II Highs = 7x800mm Meta 3/Salvager I I don't even have the thing rigged yet, still trying to figure out what weaknesses to patch/strengths to boost. With Regular Fusion I am hitting targets easily at up to 70km, one shooting some cruisers, shredding BCs and polishing off BS with speed. I thought the Typhoon Fleet Issue was great for missions, but it's a piker compared to the Machariel. This ship is appreciably cheaper than a Vargur as well, so I think it's got great value. ----------- I travel the spaceways, from planet to planet . . . and find stuff.

Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.02.28 19:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Admiral Pelleon The mach is better at Angels by far. I have a corp mate with one and he can finish at least 30% faster with 800's than I can with tachyons on the paladin. I wouldn't be surprised if it was twice as fast or more tbh ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Miriiah	Posted - 2010.02.28 21:50:00 - [22] 4 RF Gyro's, 3 TE's RF/Domination 100mn AB, 2 hardners + SBA(or 3 hardners) 7800mm II 2cc 1* t2 Ambit, this will do for lvl 4's solo with no problems
Admiral Pelleon White Shadow Imperium	Posted - 2010.02.28 21:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Admiral Pelleon The mach is better at Angels by far. I have a corp mate with one and he can finish at least 30% faster with 800's than I can with tachyons on the paladin. I wouldn't be surprised if it was twice as fast or more tbh He's slow. ________ Real men fly Amarr.
Droning Ceo	Posted - 2010.02.28 22:05:00 - [24] Originally by: Yves Nat I have just started using a Machariel and it inhales missions, especially Angels. I did Unauthorized Military presence in 21 minutes yesterday, and that included time spent salvaging some wrecks. Compared with the OP fit, this is my fit: Lows = Same Mids = AB II/Invuln II/Explosive Hardener II/Kinetic Hardener II/Cap Recharger II Highs = 7x800mm Meta 3/Salvager I I don't even have the thing rigged yet, still trying to figure out what weaknesses to patch/strengths to boost. With Regular Fusion I am hitting targets easily at up to 70km, one shooting some cruisers, shredding BCs and polishing off BS with speed. I thought the Typhoon Fleet Issue was great for missions, but it's a piker compared to the Machariel. This ship is appreciably cheaper than a Vargur as well, so I think it's got great value. if you could fly the vargur.. which would you chose? i ask because i can fly a vargur and a mach.. but haven't really done missions for years.. i fancy running a bunch and have the choice of the two ships. Vargurs gonna net me some salvage and save on ammo costs (which are pretty minimal anyway)but the mach is cool as ****
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.02.28 22:59:00 - [25] The mach is indeed FRIGGIN AWESOME, and I find that when chasing down BS the increased speed helps not only reduce incoming DPS but improve outgoing DPS since you reduce the damage lost to falloff. The tank is good enough on either one. I would probably run the Vargur since if I were doing Angel missions I'd want to salvage and the Vargur's bonuses will improve on that. Also, using faction ammo is very feasible on the Vargur, so I'd probably use that if I had Minmatar BS V. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.28 23:59:00 - [26] I have four gyros on mine, so the third TE turned into a t2 ambit ( I'm not brave enough to fly without the DC yet ). I kinda ran out of ideas for the other rigs too, I think I ended up with one CCC on it but without checking I've no idea what the other one is... ( and ofc TQ is down atm ). I think it might have been an op solidifier for want of anything more useful. Takes less time to AB across to some rats than switch to Barrage, so I have a prop mod on; MWD works in AE yes and a few other deadspaces, but not all yet.
Yves Nat Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.01 03:53:00 - [27] Like Terianna wrote, Vargur is more practical for salvaging, it's just built that way. I'm not sure what the trade off is in actual terms, but the Mach cuts through missions SO FAST that you're going to be churning out standings and LP more efficiently, so depending on what you value . . . ----------- I travel the spaceways, from planet to planet . . . and find stuff.
brocksamson316	Posted - 2010.03.01 11:19:00 - [28] The vargur has 8 effective guns and the mach only 7 so surely the vargur is better?
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.01 11:48:00 - [29] Originally by: brocksamson316 Edited by: brocksamson316 on 01/03/2010 11:28:27 The vargur has 8 effective guns and the mach only 7 so surely the vargur is better? I was looking at getting either but im not sure what shield booster to fit on them, the medium deadspace ones look amazing but they are super expensive! Vargur has 4 turrets, 100% damage bonus, and 25% RoF bonus => 8 guns + RoF bonus Machariel has 7 turrets, 25% damage bonus, and 25% RoF bonus => 8.75 guns + RoF bonus Note that using faction ammo on the Vargur gets you an additional 15% damage, which puts it on top of the Machariel, but given the insanely fast rate of fire on autocannons, going through 4 rounds of faction ammo every 3 seconds still might not be worthwhile. They have the same falloff bonus, Vargur gets a tracking and tanking bonus, Machariel is faster and has more drones (can use 4x heavies or sentries + 5x lights whereas Vargur is stuck with 5 meds + 5 lights IIRC). I don't think the tracking bonus is especially useful given that both are going to be using autocannons (high tracking) supported by at least 2 TEs (usually 3) so the Machariel should track fine. tl;dr Mach is better at killing stuff, but with the Vargur looting/salvaging is easier and plus you don't have to worry about tank at all. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Miriiah	Posted - 2010.03.01 11:54:00 - [30] Edited by: Miriiah on 01/03/2010 11:54:49 Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: brocksamson316 Edited by: brocksamson316 on 01/03/2010 11:28:27 The vargur has 8 effective guns and the mach only 7 so surely the vargur is better? I was looking at getting either but im not sure what shield booster to fit on them, the medium deadspace ones look amazing but they are super expensive! Vargur has 4 turrets, 100% damage bonus, and 25% RoF bonus => 8 guns + RoF bonus Machariel has 7 turrets, 25% damage bonus, and 25% RoF bonus => 8.75 guns + RoF bonus Note that using faction ammo on the Vargur gets you an additional 15% damage, which puts it on top of the Machariel, but given the insanely fast rate of fire on autocannons, going through 4 rounds of faction ammo every 3 seconds still might not be worthwhile. They have the same falloff bonus, Vargur gets a tracking and tanking bonus, Machariel is faster and has more drones (can use 4x heavies or sentries + 5x lights whereas Vargur is stuck with 5 meds + 5 lights IIRC). I don't think the tracking bonus is especially useful given that both are going to be using autocannons (high tracking) supported by at least 2 TEs (usually 3) so the Machariel should track fine. tl;dr Mach is better at killing stuff, but with the Vargur looting/salvaging is easier and plus you don't have to worry about tank at all. Deffo worth using faction ammo, esp on Vargur (If you run for minmatar so you can buy it from LP store, which you sorta should in a Vargur/Mach for best possible performance)

Ernesto DaSilva	Posted - 2010.03.01 12:00:00 - [31] Edited by: Ernesto DaSilva on 01/03/2010 12:11:00 Originally by: brocksamson316 The vargur has 8 effective guns and the mach only 7 so surely the vargur is better? the mach has 2 low slots more than the vargur, that's 2 gyros/te's more. also the mach has 50m¦ more dronespace and 25 more bandwidth, allowing you to field 4 sentries while still having a flight of lights. when fitting a mach and a varg in eft so that tank and range (falloff) is almost equal, the mach pulls ahead by about 200 dps. the varg has to offset this with its tracking bonus and loot+salvage on the fly.
Ernesto DaSilva	Posted - 2010.03.01 12:08:00 - [32] Originally by: Terianna Eri tl;dr Mach is better at killing stuff, but with the Vargur looting/salvaging is easier and plus you don't have to worry about tank at all. Just because the Mach is faster at killing stuff you don't have to worry about tank at all as well. E.g. in "Downing the slavers" stuff is dead when my shields drop to the "hm.. I might turn on the booster"-point.
brocksamson316	Posted - 2010.03.01 12:11:00 - [33] so in the meds i was planning on 1 gixt x type explosive 1 cn invul 1 gist x type kinetic, or should i fit 2 explosives 1 invul or 2 explosive 1 kinetic hard. Im also not sure what booster to buy, id like to be able to permarun it but ive just seen the cost of puithum a type med booster, crikey.
Cryptalline	Posted - 2010.03.01 12:59:00 - [34] I'm currently shield hardener my Machariel and can permarun three hardeners with only one capacitor recharger. 1xCCC would solve this as well, giving me another slot, but I'm not sure what to use the slot for and the thing is so damn hot and crushing without any rigs yet! Only time I worried about shields was in drone attack, so tank so far has been fine. Going to do AE in it in a day or two, we'll see how it goes. I want to point out vis-a-vis tracking that with 3xTE2 my 800mm autocannons hit frigates pretty easily at ranges over 40km but are useless against them closer. I used 15 light drones and 5 mediums for small stuff.
brocksamson316	Posted - 2010.03.01 13:19:00 - [35] i have maxed gunnery and a 5% tracking hardwiring, im hoping to hit frigates no problem with acs at 20km let alone 40km
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.01 13:40:00 - [36] Edited by: Von Kapiche on 01/03/2010 13:41:05 Permarun the booster? most of the time you won't even need to switch it on. Forget perma-running already, it's pointless and will cripple your fit. I use a pith B large I had in my Mael which is usually plenty, I have enough spare fit to put a t2 XL and a cap booster on for the rare time it isn't. I don't use large ( or sentries ), travel time for large drones is a pain and I guess I could use sentries, but looking after them with a highly mobile ship is also annoying.
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.03.01 17:04:00 - [37] Originally by: Ernesto DaSilva Originally by: Terianna Eri tl;dr Mach is better at killing stuff, but with the Vargur looting/salvaging is easier and plus you don't have to worry about tank at all. Just because the Mach is faster at killing stuff you don't have to worry about tank at all as well. E.g. in "Downing the slavers" stuff is dead when my shields drop to the "hm.. I might turn on the booster"-point. I don't fly the Machariel in missions myself; I use it for running 0.0 anomalies, and when you're getting 3x 1.1 mil BS spawns every 3-4 minutes tank sustainability becomes a problem. I'd imagine it'd be easier in missions. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Yves Nat Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.02 19:30:00 - [38] I did AE in my Machariel yesterday, took 1:45 total, most of that time was spent looting/salvaging/dumping/repeating. Actual combat was about 30 minutes worth, never even used my Valkyries, just Warriors. Every mission I have done both in the Typhoon Fleet Issue and Machariel has led me to put the Typhoon into contract. No comparison, and the Machariel still has not needed rigs. Dream boat. ----------- I travel the spaceways, from planet to planet . . . and find stuff.


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