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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.28 23:33:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 28/02/2010 23:35:58
 Originally by: La Dudette
Originally by: Mioelnir
Please present a math proof that replacing a ME15 BPO with X years worth of ME-1 BPCs preserves the BPO's profit over these X years.
Instead of accusing people of lying, stop making assumptions. I did not specify a fixed amount of BPCs/length of time in my proposal: CCP would have to work that out. CCP has specifically asked that proposals should not provide details of solutions.
Your mistake is to assume that the profit of a BPO over X years will have to be provided for with X years of BPCs. This does not have to be the case, it can be Y years.
Yes, after all if someone has thought to tie up his capital for 3 years it make no difference is you tie it up for 10 years  . After all we will be still here in 10 years.
And if BPO owners get multiple BPC to cover those Y years so the capital is not tied up for the full period you have the net effect of increasing T2 production.
You seem to have a hard time grasping the aftereffects of your suggestions.
Originally by: La Dudette
Compensate the owners: convert them into T2 BPCs equivalent to two or three years of continuous production (as many are priced that way), but at -1 ME.
Originally by: La Dudette
I did not specify a fixed amount of BPCs/length of time in my proposal
This seem a fairly precise amount of time and a specific ME.
Maybe you should redo your proposal?
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Tellenta
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.28 23:41:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Sokratesz
I'm gonna go against the flow and support this. Not just because I don't have one, but because it would break open the market a little and put a stop to a virtual risk-free source of income.
.
As someone that makes darn near all the isk I have in game through invention I find the concept that the T2 market would be broken open by getting rid of T2 BPO's questionable at best. While I am not sure how much research cuts the cost for BPO owners their effect on profit for the inventor is negligible at best. Though with the build requirements for ships being adjusted oh so many patches ago I assume a T2 ship bpo owner is rolling in isk as the ME effects the armor plate requirements the most, unless CCP thought of that and adjusted T2 ship BPO's. However that assumes forethought on the side of CCP which we all know through experience is a laughable jest.
Oh and not supported, why are there so many people want this game to be fair? Stop trying to ruin this game you bastards!
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Omega Flames
Last Resort Inn
SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE
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Posted - 2010.03.01 00:31:00 -
[63]
-------------------------
"Forsys > WAR
Forsys > HUH
Forsys > WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR
Harry Sunday > loot
Forsys > touchT" |
Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.03.01 09:43:00 -
[64]
Citing that invention scales as argument for keeping T2 BPOs is kinda meh. Since you have to scale in volume to achieve similar profits gained from a smaller number of items produced by T2 BPO, it means the markets become saturated with less people doing invention -> more competition -> lower margins, while people with BPOs are largely unaffected.
I would refrain from voting for the abolishment of T2 BPOs if invented BPC ME's could be brought to levels > 5. There are enough proposals for this. If that was done, BPOs would still have an advantage, but at least the disparity of the production costs is reduced. And this would ofc bring T2 ship prices down, which I would welcome.
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.01 09:45:00 -
[65]
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.01 13:15:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Citing that invention scales as argument for keeping T2 BPOs is kinda meh. Since you have to scale in volume to achieve similar profits gained from a smaller number of items produced by T2 BPO, it means the markets become saturated with less people doing invention -> more competition -> lower margins, while people with BPOs are largely unaffected.
I would refrain from voting for the abolishment of T2 BPOs if invented BPC ME's could be brought to levels > 5. There are enough proposals for this. If that was done, BPOs would still have an advantage, but at least the disparity of the production costs is reduced. And this would ofc bring T2 ship prices down, which I would welcome.
As already pointed out in page 1, 1 BPO is approximately the equivalent of 2,5 PE-4 BPC for production.
I.E. 1 BPO do the same work of 2,5 production lines of BPC.
So the 40 BPO that were seeded for each ship (if they are all still in game) are the equivalent of 100 production lines for that ship, i.e. 9,09 inventors with 11 production slots.
Probably banned and inactive accounts hold a large percentage of the best BPO.
During the second seeding of T2 BPO there was a blog about them where it was said that a RTM cartel holding several BPO was banned en masse. At least some of those BPO were re-seeded with the second wave, but the BPO that were on banned accounts after that date have been removed from the game.
The banning after the POS exploit probably had several good BPo banned as the people using the POS cheat to produce moon minerals were producing directly T2 stuff to reduce traceability.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.03.01 15:15:00 -
[67]
Well the only reason T2 BPOs are being kept as-is to not screw the owners. Apart from that, there is no argument for not fixing bad gamedesign.
So, to protect the holy cows (somewhat), just let the T2 BPOs be, but make invention more competitive by allowing for improved ME. Yeah, invention is fine, yadda yadda, but I want to see T2 ship prices drop.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.01 15:24:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Well the only reason T2 BPOs are being kept as-is to not screw the owners. Apart from that, there is no argument for not fixing bad gamedesign.
So, to protect the holy cows (somewhat), just let the T2 BPOs be, but make invention more competitive by allowing for improved ME. Yeah, invention is fine, yadda yadda, but I want to see T2 ship prices drop.
let me tell you ... just because my costs drop, it doesnt mean i lower my prices. it just means i will make more profit. ;)
business 101. works irl. works in eve.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.03.01 16:53:00 -
[69]
Originally by: darius mclever
let me tell you ... just because my costs drop, it doesnt mean i lower my prices. it just means i will make more profit. ;)
It's great, isn't it? Thank you for supporting my cause.
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Kilostream
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:56:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Kilostream on 01/03/2010 18:07:03
Originally by: darius mclever
let me tell you ... just because my costs drop, it doesnt mean i lower my prices. it just means i will make more profit. ;)
business 101. works irl. works in eve.
I'd dispute this - with direct competition for sales in a free market, margins get squeezed - you might decide not to drop your prices, but your competitor will in order to nick sales off you.
Someone else will do the same in order to nick sales off him, and you will at some stage be forced to do the same or your invesment in building materials will become tied up in stock you cannot shift, and you will therefore have no liquidity to invest in more materials for your next batches of production.
It's these market forces that are keeping profit margins on t2 production tight, NOT t2 BPOs.
This is why you make no higher percentage margins prodicing HIC / Black Op etc than you do items that have a t2 BPO equivalent.
A lot of people seem convinced that removal of t2 BPOs will somehow allow them to realise greater profit with their invented gear - it won't - if anything, having everyone building using invented neg ME BPC will result in increased demand for materials to build the same number of finished products - if anything, your costs would most likely go up.
The way to make money in t2 production right now is 'pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap' - this is why invention > BPO, because you can produce in volumes that dwarf what a BPO can produce - I'm not saying it's easy (especially if you build your own components) you need to be committed - but speak to anyone who owns a t2 BPO (or more) that is not exactly a logistical walk in the park, either.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:52:00 -
[71]
it works. ;)
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.03.01 20:45:00 -
[72]
Originally by: La Dudette
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
A single, nearly unused, POS module got removed from the game by flipping all the NPC sell orders to buy orders. That had the virtue of being exact and explicit in its compensation value, as opposed to T2 BPOs, whose value swings wildly and is very hard to determine. Also, there's enough value of them in the game that we could expect their removal and replacement with cash to cause a really notable spike of inflation.
It's hard enough responding to the real criticism without having to answer this sort of stuff. But let's do it as a one off: go back up to the first post and read the proposal; point out the part where it says "replace them with cash".
You didn't propose replacing them with cash, you proposed shafting the people who own them. They're currently priced at something like 5 years profits at 0% waste. You propose giving them 2 years production at 20% waste. That's not compensation, that's a calculated insult. There is exactly one way to compensate them that wouldn't simply be a screwjob, and that's with cash(or goods, I suppose, but that'd be even more problematic).
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Sonja Miner
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Posted - 2010.03.02 05:54:00 -
[73]
Cash shouldn't really be an option. They should leave the same way they came in. Look at it like anything else in this game, investing in anything is a gamble. Did the people who originally recieved them pay anything for them? I honestly don't know because I don't think I was around then.
Eve is a game of chances, just like undocking. When the time comes, devblog the time and date it'll happen. Then at that time, they become max run BPC's. Problem solved. If you bought em from someone else, that person made a hefty profit and the buyer made a bad investment (I'm sure they made a nice profit while they had it anyway). If the person who received them never sold them, it never really benefitted anyone but that person anyway and no harm done.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.02 07:45:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 02/03/2010 07:45:57
Originally by: Sonja Miner
Cash shouldn't really be an option. They should leave the same way they came in. Look at it like anything else in this game, investing in anything is a gamble. Did the people who originally recieved them pay anything for them? I honestly don't know because I don't think I was around then.
Eve is a game of chances, just like undocking. When the time comes, devblog the time and date it'll happen. Then at that time, they become max run BPC's. Problem solved. If you bought em from someone else, that person made a hefty profit and the buyer made a bad investment (I'm sure they made a nice profit while they had it anyway). If the person who received them never sold them, it never really benefitted anyone but that person anyway and no harm done.
1) they were brought with RP, everything you had with the agent the moment you accepted the offer. At the time of the first seeding datacores were not an option (they were introduced 2 year later) so training those skill was a hit or miss proposition.
2) can I turn all your BPO to max run BPC? Can I turn your ships to a version that will last 100 undocking? that is what you are suggesting.
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Sonja Miner
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Posted - 2010.03.02 08:26:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Sonja Miner on 02/03/2010 08:29:18
1) Then pay the owner in RP as repayment. Paying out what people pay for the item isn't solid value. If someone paid an amount more than it was worth to have it, that shouldn't give them the right to claim what they paid.
2) can I turn all your BPO to max run BPC? Sure go ahead lol. The undocking part of your post is nonsense tbh. These items
for ISK value though, and though there isn't one, I used the armageddon and redeemer for an example. 596,250,000 ISk for a geddon BPO. geddons go for around 45mil or so, we'll say the avg is 45mil. 596,250,000/45,000,000= 13.25
13.25x695,000,000(is random current price of a redeemer)= 9,208,750,000.
BPO owner can be awarded just over 9bil if they owned the Redeemer BPO. This is an example, so don't get your panties in a wad about a Redeemer BPO. People who invested in more valuable items will get a substantial payback but not near what they did pay for it. Will people get screwed? Sure. It's Eve, get over it. It will not break the bank of those who own them if they paid a huge sum already. If investors get ****ed, talk to those people who invested in Enron and borrow a tissue. These BPO's shouldn't be in the game unless everyone can be able to get their own. For the trolls to come, kleenex? Fly safe.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.02 09:25:00 -
[76]
Who cares about their loss , come on every change in eve affects people and many of us lost isk due to changes many times, why should they be exceptioned from this? Why should keep items in for some privileged "elit" who were lucky when these bpos were shared? Also bpo-s effect markets maybe not the modules,but ships/ammos definitely. Is that right ? I dont think so . If they want to make money they should be join the inventors ranks or something else like the rest of us.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.02 09:40:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Who cares about their loss , come on every change in eve affects people and many of us lost isk due to changes many times, why should they be exceptioned from this? Why should keep items in for some privileged "elit" who were lucky when these bpos were shared? Also bpo-s effect markets maybe not the modules,but ships/ammos definitely. Is that right ? I dont think so . If they want to make money they should be join the inventors ranks or something else like the rest of us.
do you have any clue about how much value you are speaking off?
just as an example... Cap recharger II BPOs sell for 70-80bn. for easier math lets say plexes are 250m for $15. we are talking about $4200-4800.
sabre bpo was 50bn, hulk over 100bn.
When CCP wanted to reduce the cost of motherships to like 6bn they were already thinking on how to reimburse the owners for the loss in value. and that was just a price reduction of 9-10bn.
Some people worked really hard to actually *buy* their bpos.
and the hulk bpo is actually funny. only 11% of the hulks come from bpos. so 89% are build by happy inventor. seems like the market is fine?
but of course whining about "i dont have a t2 bpo, so others shouldnt have either" is so much easier than actually doing research and producing the right things.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.02 10:32:00 -
[78]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Who cares about their loss , come on every change in eve affects people and many of us lost isk due to changes many times, why should they be exceptioned from this? Why should keep items in for some privileged "elit" who were lucky when these bpos were shared? Also bpo-s effect markets maybe not the modules,but ships/ammos definitely. Is that right ? I dont think so . If they want to make money they should be join the inventors ranks or something else like the rest of us.
do you have any clue about how much value you are speaking off?
just as an example... Cap recharger II BPOs sell for 70-80bn. for easier math lets say plexes are 250m for $15. we are talking about $4200-4800.
sabre bpo was 50bn, hulk over 100bn.
When CCP wanted to reduce the cost of motherships to like 6bn they were already thinking on how to reimburse the owners for the loss in value. and that was just a price reduction of 9-10bn.
Some people worked really hard to actually *buy* their bpos.
and the hulk bpo is actually funny. only 11% of the hulks come from bpos. so 89% are build by happy inventor. seems like the market is fine?
but of course whining about "i dont have a t2 bpo, so others shouldnt have either" is so much easier than actually doing research and producing the right things.
Maybe that 70-80bill is overpriced , but still who cares? I dont. They made their choices when bought the bpo.
Just like that bad investment. So they should get special treatment just because they are t2 bpo owners?
Also this math about isk-->$ is against eula ,you cant trade isk to realmoney legally.
So for hulk it is 11% ,then what? Does it somehow proove that t2 bpos are fine then ,no absolutly not.
T2 bpos are a bad game design they should gone just like the seed of them.
There are these items which are unavailable for newcommers to eve just because they werent playing when bpos were seeded, only possible way to get them is to buy them from their current owners willing to sell them at a very overpriced rate.
Oh if ccp thinks they should get reimbuse then do so but still they should remove them from game.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.02 11:16:00 -
[79]
how is a t2 bpo unavailable to you? you can buy them. will it cost you lots of money? sure.
you think it is too much money? you dont want it enough. it is easy enough to earn 50-100bn with invention in a year and buy yourself a t2 bpo.
hell there are some nice t2 missile bpos for sale atm that go below 5bn buyout.
was the idea bad to introduce them through a lottery style? mostlikely. (even without the t20 thingie) do we need more t2 bpos? no. but all that doesnt mean you should rip them out of the game either. they are not game breaking either.
i just wonder naomi ... do you actually do t2 production?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.02 13:05:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Sonja Miner
2) can I turn all your BPO to max run BPC? Sure go ahead lol. The undocking part of your post is nonsense tbh.
Both thing have exactly the same sense (or better, lack of it) of your proposal: turning a permanent item into a limited use one.
I would prefer to see my BPO turned to an unusable but collection worthy "framed T2 BPO" to hung in my room when Incarna become active that have it turned to a consumable with a limited number of uses.
You find turning your ship to a item with a finite number of uses nonsense, but it is exactly what you are suggesting for the BPO.
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Sonja Miner
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Posted - 2010.03.02 15:31:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Sonja Miner on 02/03/2010 15:33:33
Venkul, you truly do not know what you mean. According to you, if you undock, you automatically lose a ship. Not just the chance, thereof. Everyone undocks, not just me and a select few.
darius, All T2 BPO's aren't available for sale, so how are ALL of them available for me to buy any one of them I want? I have no chance to buy a particular one I may want. Which makes the T2 BPO control monopolizing and unfair.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.03.02 15:51:00 -
[82]
The broken part is not that they exist and give advantage over invention.
The broken part is they cant be taken by force ( assuming owner has half brain and farms it at station ).
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.02 15:51:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Sonja Miner
Edited by: Sonja Miner on 02/03/2010 15:33:33
Venkul, you truly do not know what you mean. According to you, if you undock, you automatically lose a ship. Not just the chance, thereof. Everyone undocks, not just me and a select few.
darius, All T2 BPO's aren't available for sale, so how are ALL of them available for me to buy any one of them I want? I have no chance to buy a particular one I may want. Which makes the T2 BPO control monopolizing and unfair.
leaving out BPOs that werent seeded (marauders, EAF), i am sure if you wave with enough money you will find someone who will sell you that seeded bpo.
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0bi one
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.02 16:49:00 -
[84]
Im a bit bored so will join in.
Quote:
This has consequences: a small number of people are able to circumvent invention and make exorbitant profits that inventors cannot compete with.
Actually wasnt invention was brought in to circumvent bpo holders who were being pilloried for price fixing (re sellers and critical supply shortages - were not to blame at all of course)
Quote:
The system continues to be fundamentally unfair to new players: there are still people out there with a blank cheque that was won in the lottery, not earned. Every one such person keeps tens to hundreds of inventors out of the market.
So what you are implying there is that the lowest priced t2 item in any station is made from a bpo and is not invented. Wow never knew that - care to back it up with some data?
And I would say your 'tens of hundreds' of would be inventors would blame lack of lab slot availability than prices at this point in time.
Quote:
CCP is inconsistent: rare moons have been addressed through alchemy,
Agree with you on the inconsistency part. However, were not the t2 bpos (especially ships) material requirements significantly changed recently due to the failure of alchemy and rare moon shortage.?
Here are some approximate figures for a well researched hac bpo .(No its not mine- wish it was though)
Basing purely on buy order prices - after all you want it to sell immediately.
Not going anywhere near data core prices etc how you get them / value them is up to you.
Average Buy order price 100M
Cost to build ( not including base ship) 65M (27M on plates 17M on microprocessors)
Profit around 30M ( taxes and ship taken into account)
Time it takes in station to build 1.25 days approx so lets say 6 a week
Thus 6/7 of 30M = 25M a day. Quote:
exorbitant profits
Not really.
Thus at a Me -4 bpc (50% waste) 97.5M
Yes at that me you are not going to compete . However you would not build a battleship at Me0 either and expect to be profitable. Hence the use of decryptors .
Smaller items sell very well ( as long as you dont do the hub routes)
Most older players are lazy and dont want to travel 10+ jumps to save a few K isk
I myself invent ( lab slots permitting) and where the average is around 600k I sell mine for 900+K easily.
Allowing decryptors to become more readily available would be nice though.
Im sorry I cannot support the motion.
0bi
I started with Sweet FA, & have most of it left. |
Jonah Pod
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.02 22:26:00 -
[85]
No. Not at all.
Leave the choice to everyone, they don't do any harm at all. Buy a T2 BPO and compete with inventors if you want to or buy and research its T1 equivalent, do the copies and the research jobs if you want to.
But please, do us a favour and use only NPC facilities when inventing! ...
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SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Shadows of Light
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Posted - 2010.03.03 04:55:00 -
[86]
Invention was the fix to the T2 BPo problem, and its heavily impacted the profitability of most of the old "big profit BPos", it also killed a significant portion of the cartels that used to exist.
(remember 10mill+ cap recharger 2s anyone?)
T2 BPos are not anywhere near as damaging as they sued to be now that anyone and everyone can invent, and the sheer number of R+D jobs going on in empire is an indication that a lot of people are either inventing or getting ready to.
In short, the situation isn't broken. so no fix is really needed.
The Light in the Darkness
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domitesting
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Posted - 2010.03.03 11:29:00 -
[87]
Yes they should of been removed when they stopped the lotterly this clearly gives older players a huge advantage over other players. Only the people reaping the benefits of this will not support it...
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.03.03 13:55:00 -
[88]
Originally by: domitesting
clearly gives older players a huge advantage over other players.
half the people I know with T2 bpos are about as old as me (2 years playing) and bought their BPOs after farming lots and lots of isk
Quote:
Only the people reaping the benefits of this will not support it...
This sort of assumption makes you look stupid. I and many others do not have any T2 bpos (nor have I partook in invention for quite some time) and I still think removing these items is stupid.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.03.03 14:21:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Mr LaForge
*posting in a "I don't have a T2 BPO so no one else should either" thread*
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.04.13 05:31:00 -
[90]
Sucks for the people who own them, but it fixes the game mechanics.
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