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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.11.28 09:48:00 -
[61]
use this link instead olyyy for the ice ore data, the code veiw of the table messes up depending on your screen. Need to turn it into an image really for that obex link.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.11.28 09:48:00 -
[62]
use this link instead olyyy for the ice ore data, the code veiw of the table messes up depending on your screen. Need to turn it into an image really for that obex link.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Lygos
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Posted - 2004.11.28 10:18:00 -
[63]
An initial POS is gonna cost whatever it costs and require whatever logistics are necessary.
The real interesting question is whether it is going to be equally difficult to open an additional POS or is it going to gradually become easier logistically? The operation of one POS should make the construction and maintenance of future POS gradually easier and increasingly viable.
There are thousands of moons per region afterall.
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Lygos
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Posted - 2004.11.28 10:18:00 -
[64]
An initial POS is gonna cost whatever it costs and require whatever logistics are necessary.
The real interesting question is whether it is going to be equally difficult to open an additional POS or is it going to gradually become easier logistically? The operation of one POS should make the construction and maintenance of future POS gradually easier and increasingly viable.
There are thousands of moons per region afterall.
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Shifar
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Posted - 2004.11.28 10:45:00 -
[65]
As has already been suggested I've taken a step back from POS deployment. I have the structures ready but untill I see a way of making a proffit, or even breaking even then I don't see the point.
I can't imagine there ever being the sort of demand for moon products that would allow me to make any decent money. If a POS can't pay it's way then they are only useful for territorial claims.
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Shifar
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Posted - 2004.11.28 10:45:00 -
[66]
As has already been suggested I've taken a step back from POS deployment. I have the structures ready but untill I see a way of making a proffit, or even breaking even then I don't see the point.
I can't imagine there ever being the sort of demand for moon products that would allow me to make any decent money. If a POS can't pay it's way then they are only useful for territorial claims.
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Betty Boom
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Posted - 2004.11.28 10:48:00 -
[67]
 Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Betty Boom
Originally by: olyyyyy
yup, and if nothing is done, there won't be any POS deployed in XF space for sure (or maybe 1 or 2 for testing ?). Dunno for the other alliances... 
I can say, CA mines ice like crazy and be sure that we will deplay POS in XIF, because it is our space ,XETIC rebel.
CCP did a good job to make POS rare, only economical strong alliances like Curse Alliance will have them. uneffective wannabe alliance will not.
Was it really necessary to try to start a flame war and derail an otherwise interesting thread?
This is not a flame war. It is simply the concept and idea behind the tread starter. she want to drop the maintaince of POS down ,so they can drop like 50 in every of their regions. If you see the firepower of a full armed POS (and the 80km? shield around one) ,it would be not able to conquere a region after it is fortify.
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Betty Boom
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Posted - 2004.11.28 10:48:00 -
[68]
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Betty Boom
Originally by: olyyyyy
yup, and if nothing is done, there won't be any POS deployed in XF space for sure (or maybe 1 or 2 for testing ?). Dunno for the other alliances...
I can say, CA mines ice like crazy and be sure that we will deplay POS in XIF, because it is our space ,XETIC rebel.
CCP did a good job to make POS rare, only economical strong alliances like Curse Alliance will have them. uneffective wannabe alliance will not.
Was it really necessary to try to start a flame war and derail an otherwise interesting thread?
This is not a flame war. It is simply the concept and idea behind the tread starter. she want to drop the maintaince of POS down ,so they can drop like 50 in every of their regions. If you see the firepower of a full armed POS (and the 80km? shield around one) ,it would be not able to conquere a region after it is fortify.
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2004.11.28 10:56:00 -
[69]
The issue here is that the original poster is complaining that a single miner can't keep a POS running by themselves in XF space.
However, I must have missed the memo saying that POSes were solo structures. If you have 2 miners working on the ice belt then you magically have enough materials to run the station without needing to go to empire.
End of whinge, I think?
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2004.11.28 10:56:00 -
[70]
The issue here is that the original poster is complaining that a single miner can't keep a POS running by themselves in XF space.
However, I must have missed the memo saying that POSes were solo structures. If you have 2 miners working on the ice belt then you magically have enough materials to run the station without needing to go to empire.
End of whinge, I think?
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rowbin hod
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Posted - 2004.11.28 11:15:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sabahl
The issue here is that the original poster is complaining that a single miner can't keep a POS running by themselves in XF space.
However, I must have missed the memo saying that POSes were solo structures. If you have 2 miners working on the ice belt then you magically have enough materials to run the station without needing to go to empire.
End of whinge, I think?
Yes, 2 miners working on the belt, both for 5 hours per day....
With Ice harvesting 5, and in a large barge, it takes 10 man hours harvesting the rubbish ice variants per day to keep the POS online for a day.
I think you missed his main point which was that the ice distribution is fubar at the moment - the good stuff is in empire, the crappy stuff is further out. If this was intentional, then it's obvious that CCP are trying to encourage people to haul the fuel our from empire. But people won't do that, not at the rate it needs to be done. Only the massive alliances would have a few POS in their deep space, and that's not what was intended either. These are meant to be relatively common features in 0.0. If they weren't then CCP wouldn't have spent the time developing something which would benefit a small number of people, leaving the rest feeling resentful. I'm sure whoever spent the time coding it would be a bit ****ed by the thought that there will only be like 10 or so in the game actually being used.
---
"Due to the European lard shortage, we are currently unable to supply this product." |
rowbin hod
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Posted - 2004.11.28 11:15:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Sabahl
The issue here is that the original poster is complaining that a single miner can't keep a POS running by themselves in XF space.
However, I must have missed the memo saying that POSes were solo structures. If you have 2 miners working on the ice belt then you magically have enough materials to run the station without needing to go to empire.
End of whinge, I think?
Yes, 2 miners working on the belt, both for 5 hours per day....
With Ice harvesting 5, and in a large barge, it takes 10 man hours harvesting the rubbish ice variants per day to keep the POS online for a day.
I think you missed his main point which was that the ice distribution is fubar at the moment - the good stuff is in empire, the crappy stuff is further out. If this was intentional, then it's obvious that CCP are trying to encourage people to haul the fuel our from empire. But people won't do that, not at the rate it needs to be done. Only the massive alliances would have a few POS in their deep space, and that's not what was intended either. These are meant to be relatively common features in 0.0. If they weren't then CCP wouldn't have spent the time developing something which would benefit a small number of people, leaving the rest feeling resentful. I'm sure whoever spent the time coding it would be a bit ****ed by the thought that there will only be like 10 or so in the game actually being used.
---
"Due to the European lard shortage, we are currently unable to supply this product." |
Kipkruide
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Posted - 2004.11.28 12:04:00 -
[73]
hauling basically cdomes down to one full itv every 3 days. about 20k cargo space. gives you 3-4 days worth of isotopes.
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Kipkruide
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Posted - 2004.11.28 12:04:00 -
[74]
hauling basically cdomes down to one full itv every 3 days. about 20k cargo space. gives you 3-4 days worth of isotopes.
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olyyyyy
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Posted - 2004.11.28 13:51:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Sabahl
The issue here is that the original poster is complaining that a single miner can't keep a POS running by themselves in XF space.
However, I must have missed the memo saying that POSes were solo structures. If you have 2 miners working on the ice belt then you magically have enough materials to run the station without needing to go to empire.
End of whinge, I think?
Wake up !
Even a mega corp would have troubles keeping up a POS !
Like I pointed it out, POS are completly illogical atm... Cheaper to build in empire space, extremly hard to build in 0.0.
Now it's 16 hours for a top miner to keep a POS running. Now are you able to find 16 people capable to fly a mining barge every day and willing to mine to keep an uber piece of crap running ? For what profit ? Tech 2 components ? woaaaa...
Now I'm sorry but even territorial claim is not worth the effort. Even CA wouldn't be able to keep POS running in XF space just coz they wouldn't be able to keep supplying them... So no POS wars = boredom.
And for the guy who said POS needed to be built near Ice Fields, thanks dude but I had noticed it since the beginning khthxbye.
Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 ) |
olyyyyy
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Posted - 2004.11.28 13:51:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Sabahl
The issue here is that the original poster is complaining that a single miner can't keep a POS running by themselves in XF space.
However, I must have missed the memo saying that POSes were solo structures. If you have 2 miners working on the ice belt then you magically have enough materials to run the station without needing to go to empire.
End of whinge, I think?
Wake up !
Even a mega corp would have troubles keeping up a POS !
Like I pointed it out, POS are completly illogical atm... Cheaper to build in empire space, extremly hard to build in 0.0.
Now it's 16 hours for a top miner to keep a POS running. Now are you able to find 16 people capable to fly a mining barge every day and willing to mine to keep an uber piece of crap running ? For what profit ? Tech 2 components ? woaaaa...
Now I'm sorry but even territorial claim is not worth the effort. Even CA wouldn't be able to keep POS running in XF space just coz they wouldn't be able to keep supplying them... So no POS wars = boredom.
And for the guy who said POS needed to be built near Ice Fields, thanks dude but I had noticed it since the beginning khthxbye.
Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 ) |
Betty Boom
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Posted - 2004.11.28 15:18:00 -
[77]
olyyyy,
you argument with math. I will show an other example of math: Xetic lost in 1 week 200 Battleships to CA. You need like 50 hours mining to replace one ship. Thats 10000 hours mining. Did all xetic members mined their own low minerials ? I think not, they bought it in Empire. What you try with your arguments is to make a 100% fortification of a region without any fleet. The 10000 hours are only the ships without any named mods or normal weapon btw.
The math you did, is in worktime and not the real maintain costs in isk of a POS. 
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Betty Boom
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Posted - 2004.11.28 15:18:00 -
[78]
olyyyy,
you argument with math. I will show an other example of math: Xetic lost in 1 week 200 Battleships to CA. You need like 50 hours mining to replace one ship. Thats 10000 hours mining. Did all xetic members mined their own low minerials ? I think not, they bought it in Empire. What you try with your arguments is to make a 100% fortification of a region without any fleet. The 10000 hours are only the ships without any named mods or normal weapon btw.
The math you did, is in worktime and not the real maintain costs in isk of a POS.
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.11.28 16:09:00 -
[79]
To all the dumbasses going off-topic with their little alliance squabbles, stfu.
This is much bigger than that, if it really is 5x as profitable to run a station in empire space, then this game is seriously ****** at the moment.
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.11.28 16:09:00 -
[80]
To all the dumbasses going off-topic with their little alliance squabbles, stfu.
This is much bigger than that, if it really is 5x as profitable to run a station in empire space, then this game is seriously ****** at the moment.
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Arcticblue2
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Posted - 2004.11.28 16:10:00 -
[81]
Well in my view a Megacorp CAN maintain a POS if they want to, the trouble I see is that big alliances don't want to be sitting in a belt mining... that is too carebear to put it like that.
And they don't want to pay carebears to do their job...
It is again ... a simple question of demand, in Empire there will be more icefields to mine alot more icemeteors to mine compared to 0.0.... if Crockite was common in Empire too the prices of Zyd and Mega would drop dramaticly would it not ?, that is why the nessesary isotopes will be cheaper in Empire than in 0.0... but then again, it is a question of logistic.
A Megacorp can easy let 5-10 person mine ice in empire and have one haul the goods back to the pos.
2 maybe even 3 loads of this stuff will give you guys ALOT of runningtime.
Even in 0.0 you should have enough manpower to have both someone mine them silly in the belts for a few days supply and someone to guard against rats.
Smaller corps will not be able to maintain such a station... but if the requirements get low enough ofcourse we can and most will do get them those stations, but do we really want it ?
----------------------------------------------
"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things."
1 cor. 13:11 |
Arcticblue2
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Posted - 2004.11.28 16:10:00 -
[82]
Well in my view a Megacorp CAN maintain a POS if they want to, the trouble I see is that big alliances don't want to be sitting in a belt mining... that is too carebear to put it like that.
And they don't want to pay carebears to do their job...
It is again ... a simple question of demand, in Empire there will be more icefields to mine alot more icemeteors to mine compared to 0.0.... if Crockite was common in Empire too the prices of Zyd and Mega would drop dramaticly would it not ?, that is why the nessesary isotopes will be cheaper in Empire than in 0.0... but then again, it is a question of logistic.
A Megacorp can easy let 5-10 person mine ice in empire and have one haul the goods back to the pos.
2 maybe even 3 loads of this stuff will give you guys ALOT of runningtime.
Even in 0.0 you should have enough manpower to have both someone mine them silly in the belts for a few days supply and someone to guard against rats.
Smaller corps will not be able to maintain such a station... but if the requirements get low enough ofcourse we can and most will do get them those stations, but do we really want it ?
----------------------------------------------
"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things."
1 cor. 13:11 |
Baun
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Posted - 2004.11.28 18:18:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Adipocere
The tipping point for when they are ready might be something as simple as re-thinking through supply lines or waiting a couple weeks and redoing their math with large barges (if they even intend to mine themselves).
Ok apparently you dont get it. It is still MORE profitable (2/5ths more profitable) to mine the good ice with a small barge than to mine the crappy ice with the large barge.
Furthermore, no one should have to run supplies CONTINUOUSLY from empire space to run a 0.0 POS (which will be the case if it proves fast to mine the good ore in empire than the **** ore in 0.0 OR if one wants to use a non regional POS). If anything it should be the other way around.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.11.28 18:18:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Adipocere
The tipping point for when they are ready might be something as simple as re-thinking through supply lines or waiting a couple weeks and redoing their math with large barges (if they even intend to mine themselves).
Ok apparently you dont get it. It is still MORE profitable (2/5ths more profitable) to mine the good ice with a small barge than to mine the crappy ice with the large barge.
Furthermore, no one should have to run supplies CONTINUOUSLY from empire space to run a 0.0 POS (which will be the case if it proves fast to mine the good ore in empire than the **** ore in 0.0 OR if one wants to use a non regional POS). If anything it should be the other way around.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.11.28 18:22:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kipkruide
ah well the answer to the problem is very simple, ice types seem to have spawned according to the normal ore types.
Stain and Xetic space ahve a bit strange ores ditribution in that they completely lack the medium ores.
jaspet to whatevers under do.
ice type ores have 3 types too
low ends which give you a tiny amount of everything.
mid ends which give you decent amounts of the isotopes you need for online.
high ends which contain huge amounts of heavy water and liquid ozone ( power / cpu )
ice types seem to specific per region of 0.0. Sa / Xetic have amarr ice (for amar pos)
now with the spawn since the medium ore types are not there i think the medium ice types havent spawned in there either.
now i can verify taht the only low and mid ice ore in stain and (xetic) that gives isotopes? is dilluted clear icicles.
wondering if it is the same for north/ west / and east. FA / CA ?
the normal mid range ores seem to be only located in empire space ?
could be deliberate, but i find it kinda strange when ccp have been yelling about everyone moving to 0.0 space, basically this forces us to move back to empire to get the stuff you need for a pos. If you want to have one. atm we are not sure if it is a viable proposition yet.
but knowing ccp they will prob never do anything about it since i don't think they did anything about some rather strange ore distro's the last year since castor deployment. so i just assume they can't think straight, can't code distribution algorithms, ****** up in this department or meant us to get this stuff from empire.
i'm willing to go with the last conclusion as soon as i find out
whether
blue ice, clear icicle, glacial mass and white glaze
are completely lacking in 0.0 space. iso just down south.
if not they ****** up
FA has Gallente ice (with Oxygen isotopes). We have NO Blue Ice (the good kind). I think we only have Thin Blue Ice (the bad kind), dark glitter, krystallos and glare crust.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.11.28 18:22:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Kipkruide
ah well the answer to the problem is very simple, ice types seem to have spawned according to the normal ore types.
Stain and Xetic space ahve a bit strange ores ditribution in that they completely lack the medium ores.
jaspet to whatevers under do.
ice type ores have 3 types too
low ends which give you a tiny amount of everything.
mid ends which give you decent amounts of the isotopes you need for online.
high ends which contain huge amounts of heavy water and liquid ozone ( power / cpu )
ice types seem to specific per region of 0.0. Sa / Xetic have amarr ice (for amar pos)
now with the spawn since the medium ore types are not there i think the medium ice types havent spawned in there either.
now i can verify taht the only low and mid ice ore in stain and (xetic) that gives isotopes? is dilluted clear icicles.
wondering if it is the same for north/ west / and east. FA / CA ?
the normal mid range ores seem to be only located in empire space ?
could be deliberate, but i find it kinda strange when ccp have been yelling about everyone moving to 0.0 space, basically this forces us to move back to empire to get the stuff you need for a pos. If you want to have one. atm we are not sure if it is a viable proposition yet.
but knowing ccp they will prob never do anything about it since i don't think they did anything about some rather strange ore distro's the last year since castor deployment. so i just assume they can't think straight, can't code distribution algorithms, ****** up in this department or meant us to get this stuff from empire.
i'm willing to go with the last conclusion as soon as i find out
whether
blue ice, clear icicle, glacial mass and white glaze
are completely lacking in 0.0 space. iso just down south.
if not they ****** up
FA has Gallente ice (with Oxygen isotopes). We have NO Blue Ice (the good kind). I think we only have Thin Blue Ice (the bad kind), dark glitter, krystallos and glare crust.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
|
olyyyyy
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Posted - 2004.11.28 19:06:00 -
[87]
Originally by: BobGhengisKhan
To all the dumbasses going off-topic with their little alliance squabbles, stfu.
This is much bigger than that, if it really is 5x as profitable to run a station in empire space, then this game is seriously ****** at the moment.
Well it's the case. Basicly it just means that what was supposed to be the new 0.0 toy has become the new empire space toy.
So basicly, we won't have any war in 0.0 for the control of systems for the simple reason that we won't build POSs. Less wars = less fun.
With this comes also the fact that POS defenses are a little bit too overpowered... What for if they are only built in empire space ??? 
For me a POS is supposed to be our new alliance toy, used to claim space and something that can be destroyed by an enemy having the determination to take over space, basicly a good potential pvp toy. Atm it's none of this. 
It's just empire space miners' new toy...
Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 ) |
olyyyyy
|
Posted - 2004.11.28 19:06:00 -
[88]
Originally by: BobGhengisKhan
To all the dumbasses going off-topic with their little alliance squabbles, stfu.
This is much bigger than that, if it really is 5x as profitable to run a station in empire space, then this game is seriously ****** at the moment.
Well it's the case. Basicly it just means that what was supposed to be the new 0.0 toy has become the new empire space toy.
So basicly, we won't have any war in 0.0 for the control of systems for the simple reason that we won't build POSs. Less wars = less fun.
With this comes also the fact that POS defenses are a little bit too overpowered... What for if they are only built in empire space ???
For me a POS is supposed to be our new alliance toy, used to claim space and something that can be destroyed by an enemy having the determination to take over space, basicly a good potential pvp toy. Atm it's none of this.
It's just empire space miners' new toy...
Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 ) |
Ishihiro tanaka
|
Posted - 2004.11.28 19:51:00 -
[89]
Even if you do get a nice Ice belt with the stuff you need for your CT can be found in 0.0, the prices of the materials needed to keep the tower online are skyrocketing. Everybody is hamstering the stuff now.
The materials (enriched uranium, oxygen, coolant and so on) need to be transferred to 0.0 through the bottlenecks by huge numbers to keep your POS alive.
If CCP did intend to make the POS a viable solution to claiming territory in 0.0 they either should lessen the load of the market-only items which are needed to fuel it, or increase a seperate number of corp-buildable items instead of the market-only ones.
Those who aim at nothing, will most certainly hit that!
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Ishihiro tanaka
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Posted - 2004.11.28 19:51:00 -
[90]
Even if you do get a nice Ice belt with the stuff you need for your CT can be found in 0.0, the prices of the materials needed to keep the tower online are skyrocketing. Everybody is hamstering the stuff now.
The materials (enriched uranium, oxygen, coolant and so on) need to be transferred to 0.0 through the bottlenecks by huge numbers to keep your POS alive.
If CCP did intend to make the POS a viable solution to claiming territory in 0.0 they either should lessen the load of the market-only items which are needed to fuel it, or increase a seperate number of corp-buildable items instead of the market-only ones.
Those who aim at nothing, will most certainly hit that!
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