| Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Flynn Fetladral
Strike-Hold
   |
Posted - 2010.03.12 14:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Flynn Fetladral on 12/03/2010 14:52:38
There is some more details here, over the video they posted before. Not sure if this was posted on the forums already. If not, enjoy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p006h6qf#p006t2xv
|
Slaedden
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 15:48:00 -
[2]
I'm going to say this in complete seriousness and leave my troll face in the box.
Eve's economy in no way can represent the economy in real life, and I hope that CCP's lead economist reads this.
This crock of New Eden's economy being somehow a place to learn things about the world's economy has a huge hole right through the middle of it that I'm surprised that I haven't read about yet. Agents. Agents, allow for an unlimited amount of income to flood the market with. There is the possibility to buy out items to raise prices in one swoop because of the fact that money can't lie in one pocket. If items don't sell and a player isn't making money in the player market, he can run missions. Therefore, a safety fallback that has no equivalent outside of video games.
Any economic analyst that can look at the game and say, "Ya, EVE's economy sure does represent the free-trade in today's market" is missing the other half of the picture. Sure we build most of everything and rely on someone building it for us, but the money in which we give value to it is thrown at us blindly by NPCs seeded in stations that in no way reflect the current state of the game's economy. Missions have a set payout (yes, affected by rank and skills) and pirates have fixed bounties. Therefore, with static money coming to players like water to a beaches shores we find the hole in the relationship between the real world's economy and New Eden's economy.
|
Lindsay Logan
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:08:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Slaedden
I'm going to say this in complete seriousness and leave my troll face in the box.
Eve's economy in no way can represent the economy in real life, and I hope that CCP's lead economist reads this.
This crock of New Eden's economy being somehow a place to learn things about the world's economy has a huge hole right through the middle of it that I'm surprised that I haven't read about yet. Agents. Agents, allow for an unlimited amount of income to flood the market with. There is the possibility to buy out items to raise prices in one swoop because of the fact that money can't lie in one pocket. If items don't sell and a player isn't making money in the player market, he can run missions. Therefore, a safety fallback that has no equivalent outside of video games.
Any economic analyst that can look at the game and say, "Ya, EVE's economy sure does represent the free-trade in today's market" is missing the other half of the picture. Sure we build most of everything and rely on someone building it for us, but the money in which we give value to it is thrown at us blindly by NPCs seeded in stations that in no way reflect the current state of the game's economy. Missions have a set payout (yes, affected by rank and skills) and pirates have fixed bounties. Therefore, with static money coming to players like water to a beaches shores we find the hole in the relationship between the real world's economy and New Eden's economy.
Actually, no.
There is not much difference form the central banking system giving out money in RL, and the NPCs in EVE. Read up a bit before you try and "lecture" on things you know nothing about.
|
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:17:00 -
[4]
difference between EVE's and real world market is that CCP cares much more than "God".
________________________________
: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:24:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
difference between EVE's and real world market is that CCP cares much more than "God".
If by God you mean international bankers, then yes.
My deepest sympathies.
Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Carl Wehden
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:29:00 -
[6]
Banks create money out of thin air so that would be the same as agents within eve would it not?
|
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:30:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 12/03/2010 16:30:33
i was more along Force of Nature, Fate, Laws of Physics, or whathaveyou. compared to that, bankers are kind of small fish :)
i mean, they couldn't increase real-life oil reserve the way CCP can increase respawn rate of veldspar.
________________________________
: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:37:00 -
[8]
1. EVE has almost exclusively inexhaustible (more precisely, infinitely renewable) resources. That includes materials of all kinds, rare items and so on and so forth.
2. Also, every item is perfectly fungible and does (almost) never decay in value (heat damage being one exception) unless downright destroyed.
3. The "state" subsidizes a wide range of activities either directly or indirectly.
4. Debt collection is unenforceable, personal responsibility is severely limited, untraceable identity change is relatively cheap and common (alts, character sales).
There are your key differences.
And they are big enough to compromise any conclusions you might draw from EVE if you don't account for them.
The economist CCP hired seems to not take any of those into account, ever.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
_
|
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 12/03/2010 16:30:33
i was more along Force of Nature, Fate, Laws of Physics, or whathaveyou. compared to that, bankers are kind of small fish :)
I'm not sure what kind of economics you're talking about, then.
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
i mean, they couldn't increase real-life oil reserve the way CCP can increase respawn rate of veldspar.
They can, however, convince nations there's an oil shortage after they gain access to the most abundant oil reserves on Earth, and gouge people for months, until various groups threaten to investigate the 'shortage' and prices mysteriously normalize.
My deepest sympathies.
Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Aleata Gilae
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Akita T
1. EVE has almost exclusively inexhaustible (more precisely, infinitely renewable) resources. That includes materials of all kinds, rare items and so on and so forth.
Economics works on the principle that resources are inexhaustable.
Originally by: Akita T
2. Also, every item is perfectly fungible and does (almost) never decay in value (heat damage being one exception) unless downright destroyed.
Depreciation is not accounted for no, but given that it's merely an accounting tool, it doesn't really have much to do with how a free market economy works.
Originally by: Akita T
3. The "state" subsidizes a wide range of activities either directly or indirectly.
Government spending...
Originally by: Akita T
4. Debt collection is unenforceable, personal responsibility is severely limited, untraceable identity change is relatively cheap and common (alts, character sales).
Given that the only Loan system in eve is via Player made organisations, this perfectly reflects the black market borrowing, so is not unique to Eve at all.
Originally by: Akita T
There are your key differences.
And they are big enough to compromise any conclusions you might draw from EVE if you don't account for them.
The economist CCP hired seems to not take any of those into account, ever.
Yes, there are key differences with our ACTUAL economy, but the Eve economy is almost plu perfect of the equilibrium desired by most Economy theorists, that will never exist in the real world.
|
|
|
Ehranavaar
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 17:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
i mean, they couldn't increase real-life oil reserve the way CCP can increase respawn rate of veldspar.
you overlook the effects of new tech which allow recovery of oil we couldn't reach at all before, couldn't reach cost effectively or literally creating oil from garbage etc. in effect new tech increases the spawn rate of "veld"
|
Sig Sour
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 17:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
i mean, they couldn't increase real-life oil reserve the way CCP can increase respawn rate of veldspar.
No, but we can find alternate fuel sources. Also eve doesn't have free market innovation. I can not invent a net (like a fishing net) that could scoop up an entire belt of ore in one swipe, I can not invent a module for a pos that would deploy mining drones that work around the clock - I promise you everyone would buy those things.
So no, Eve does not represent the real world economy, but it does a good job of it as far as simulations go.
|
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 18:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Akita T
There are your key differences.
And they are big enough to compromise any conclusions you might draw from EVE if you don't account for them.
The economist CCP hired seems to not take any of those into account, ever.
When Evolutionary Algorithms are analyzed, do we discard our theories from biology just because the former can't possibly be an exact match with the latter?
No... It is actually surprising how close to idealized versions of the theorizes they come. Playing an economist on the internets does not make you a real economist.
|
Soma Khan
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 18:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T
1. EVE has almost exclusively inexhaustible (more precisely, infinitely renewable) resources. That includes materials of all kinds, rare items and so on and so forth.
2. Also, every item is perfectly fungible and does (almost) never decay in value (heat damage being one exception) unless downright destroyed.
3. The "state" subsidizes a wide range of activities either directly or indirectly.
4. Debt collection is unenforceable, personal responsibility is severely limited, untraceable identity change is relatively cheap and common (alts, character sales).
There are your key differences.
And they are big enough to compromise any conclusions you might draw from EVE if you don't account for them.
The economist CCP hired seems to not take any of those into account, ever.
What's your college degree in?
|
Swiftgaze
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 18:17:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Swiftgaze on 12/03/2010 18:17:40
Hello and welcome to "Akita T is 16 and wants someone fired" round #2? This topic could have been so nice.
EDIT: 16. Not 15. Let's be fair.
|
Kibulay
|
Posted - 2010.03.12 18:47:00 -
[16]
So are we in fact used as some kind of guinea pigs for economists experiments ? shouldnt we get some kind of compensentation for that ? 
|
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.03.13 00:35:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Akita T on 13/03/2010 00:45:11
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Akita T
There are your key differences.
And they are big enough to compromise any conclusions you might draw from EVE if you don't account for them.
The economist CCP hired seems to not take any of those into account, ever.
When Evolutionary Algorithms are analyzed, do we discard our theories from biology just because the former can't possibly be an exact match with the latter?
Emphasis added to quoted parts.
No, you don't discard anything, but you take into account the differences and adjust everything accordingly, both ways. Failure to do that is a "major intellectual sin", or whatever you want to call it.
Originally by: Soma Khan
What's your college degree in?
If you have to know, engineering, more precisely industrial automation and informatics. You know, the part with system control and other such weird things. And extensive project management work experience afterwards. All of it, which strangely, actually makes me ever so slightly less unqualified for the particularities of the EVE "economy" than a real-life economist.
Not that it really matters anyway.
Originally by: Aleata Gilae
Yes, there are key differences with our ACTUAL economy, but the Eve economy is almost plu perfect of the equilibrium desired by most Economy theorists, that will never exist in the real world.
And you don't see this as more of a problem than a bonus when an academic economist gets his hands on it ? 
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
_
|
Aurelius Constantinus
MetaMind Deep Space Explorations
|
Posted - 2010.03.13 01:01:00 -
[18]
Interesting sound bite.
|
Siroh
|
Posted - 2010.03.13 01:12:00 -
[19]
Very interesting
|
SkyLordUK
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2010.03.13 01:45:00 -
[20]
right im calling it Icelands Economy is run by CCP 
Sky.
----------------------------------------------
Jumping Gates is like a box of sweets
You just dont know were the sour one is |
|
|
Dillon Arklight
Universal Army
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.03.13 10:38:00 -
[21]
Thanks for the heads up, I will give it a listen later today.
Co-host of PODDED Podcast
http://podded.libsyn.com/
|
Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
F A I L
|
Posted - 2010.03.13 11:28:00 -
[22]
Again with the claim of finding duping exploits or whatever... I'll simply repeat from the last thread:
Originally by: TurielD
Now, we all know about the moongoo POS exploit by now, which is just about the only instance of this type I can readily think of. However, that particular instance came to light when people with inside knowledge of the situation revealed it did it not?
So, either the good doctor has accomplished something quite impressive and of incontestable value to EVE's economy, which has remained a secret - in which case I and his other detractors will quite happily sit down and shut up I'm sure - or he is being rather disingenuous in claiming credit for something he had no role in.
I'm sure it's not hard for CCP to tell us which is the case without revealing anything they shouldn't (a simple 'yes he had a role in solving an exploit x months ago would suffice')... yet we have never heard anything of the achievements which have come from the vaunted economists expertise.
And I also maintain the following:
Quote:
From all the information that can occasionally be prized out of him it appears that most of his time is spent as a kind of research parasite - he's looking at eve's economy to see what it teaches him about real world macroeconomics, if it confirms or contradicts economic theory... he has rarely - if ever - given any indication, let alone proof, of providing anything of substance in return for this unprecedented level of information he's being given about a gigantic economic simulator, and frankly that's disgusting.
The good doctor is a fine PR asset, he's gotten CCP on the BBC twice now in as many months... just don't perpetuate the seemingly false belief that he is doing or has done anything of value for EVE's economy, or even for existing players at all, until some kind of achievement is presented.
If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes
Don't be greedy :P -Cap |
nim TsuNim
|
Posted - 2010.03.13 11:32:00 -
[23]
Available as a podcast via iTunes
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/digitalp-09-march-10-eve-economy/id73331490?i=81422230
...for those of you on the move.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |