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Planetary Interaction - Inflationary?

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Hentuku	Posted - 2010.03.16 11:45:00 - [1] Is PI inflationary for the eve economy or not? PI will make a number of NPC only items manufacturable by players. When purchasing the items before, the ISK just went no where. When PI is introduced into eve, we are creating a whole new way for people to make money. Sure before you could have purchased the NPC items and moved them to sell for a markup, but surely the profit from that will be nothing like the amount of isk generated from PI. Unless of course, profits are driven to near 0, which will happen if everyone gets into it. I would be interested in what the rest of MD thinks about this.
Alex V0X2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:31:00 - [2] Sure, there is no isk sink because NPCs don't sell anything. But there is no isk coming into the game either, all is done with already existing isk. So what inflation?
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:37:00 - [3] Originally by: Alex V0X2 Sure, there is no isk sink because NPCs don't sell anything. But there is no isk coming into the game either, all is done with already existing isk. So what inflation? So, where does mission reward and bounty come from again? How about insurance fraud? Closed until further notice
El Liptonez	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:38:00 - [4] How do you know that NPC goods will be replaced?
Alex V0X2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: Alex V0X2 Sure, there is no isk sink because NPCs don't sell anything. But there is no isk coming into the game either, all is done with already existing isk. So what inflation? So, where does mission reward and bounty come from again? How about insurance fraud? Mission reward and insurance is isk poured into the game. Bounty (the one players put on one another) comes from their own pocket.
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.16 13:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Alex V0X2 Bounty (the one players put on one another) comes from their own pocket. Bounty (the one CONCORD pays for killing rats) doesn't. Free jumpclone service\|924 stations - 6000+ users
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2010.03.16 13:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Alex V0X2 Bounty (the one players put on one another) comes from their own pocket. Bounty (the one CONCORD pays for killing rats) doesn't. Which has nothing to do with the OP's question of whether or not Planetary Interaction will result in inflation. Originally by: Alex V0X2 Sure, there is no isk sink because NPCs don't sell anything. But there is no isk coming into the game either, all is done with already existing isk. So what inflation? NPCs do sell things currently that may be replaced by PI. If for example PI allows the player manufacturing of Mechanical Parts, then we will see a change in supply without a change in demand. This will change the cost of Mechanical Parts and trickle into the other activities in which it is used. The question becomes whether or not PI will replace the NPC market goods and how quickly that change occurs. Potentially, there is the opportunity for cost of existing NPC items to go down if they are manufacturable in Tyrannis. This frees up more isk for other stuff and could potentially cause slight inflation. CEO, Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.16 13:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Dex Nederland Which has nothing to do with the OP's question of whether or not Planetary Interaction will result in inflation. Are you sure? Originally by: Dex Nederland Potentially, there is the opportunity for cost of existing NPC items to go down if they are manufacturable in Tyrannis. This frees up more isk for other stuff and could potentially cause slight inflation. So close, and yet so far. How about the fact that isk production stays the same (hey, that's where the CONCORD bounties come into play!) but that an isk sink will be reduced? That's what Brock was alluding to earlier. Free jumpclone service\|924 stations - 6000+ users
Grozen Caldari Titan Core	Posted - 2010.03.16 13:44:00 - [9] If you read the blog good you'd notice two words liquid and gas knowledge is power
Hentuku	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Estel Arador How about the fact that isk production stays the same (hey, that's where the CONCORD bounties come into play!) but that an isk sink will be reduced? That's what Brock was alluding to earlier. Yes this is what I was getting at, however you are obviously much better at explaining things than me! :) Not sure how PI together with reduced insurance payouts will work together though, in the grand scheme of things. Things get cheaper to build, income from missions/bounties stays same, NPC isk sink reduced. With more isk flying around, you would expect ship prices to increase and hence mineral costs to also follow. If that is the case an insurance nerf would result in more isk loss per ship loss.

Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:57:00 - [11] There's only one person with half an idea in this thread. The remainder should immediately kill yourselves for not even realising you don't know what you're talking about. This thread is a horrible waste of time. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.16 14:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Professor Leech There's only one person with half an idea in this thread. Is that including or excluding you? Free jumpclone service\|924 stations - 6000+ users
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:26:00 - [13] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Professor Leech There's only one person with half an idea in this thread. Is that including or excluding you? Excluding myself. I just had the misfortune of reading this thread. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:55:00 - [14] I've been tinkering with the PI functions on SiSi... and granted that everything in the test server is highly conditional ATM: Has anyone else noticed that certain minerals such as Nocx are available for extraction? Just speculating... just curious... any thoughts on the implications if Ores / Minerals become available from planets? What funs to be had in manufacturing and the markets!
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:06:00 - [15] Edited by: Professor Leech on 16/03/2010 16:06:37 Too bad the items used on sisi are place holder items that do not represent the final products. It is a test server. If a final build ever reaches sisi it will be shortly before patch day so the time to react to this will be minimal. The op also assumes that the planets will produce infinite amount of goods without rate limitations. That is clearly not the case. There is also an assumption that regional differences will not be included, I don't know why anyone would think that. Where is the evidence that isk sinks will decrease as a result of this? Why is there talk of isk generation from PI when the concept is to produce goods? Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Professor Leech Where is the evidence that isk sinks will decrease as a result of this? Why is there talk of isk generation from PI when the concept is to produce goods? Stuff which is now sold by NPCs (isk sink) will be available via planetary interaction. Unless planetary interaction will require some kind of fee paid to NPCs (perhaps indirect via fuel - though of course the rumour is that it'll be fuel that is extracted) equivalent to that isk sink, the ratio of isk production to isk sinking will rise. Quote: According to Torfi, the end products coming out of planets are things that are in the game today but are currently manufactured by NPCs. Linkage Free jumpclone service\|924 stations - 6000+ users
Cecilia Syal Minmatar al-Syal Brigade	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:54:00 - [17] did anyone build a university on their planet yet? I wonder the process to make skillbooks will be
TraderJade Caldari Secure Production Research and Trading	Posted - 2010.03.16 17:51:00 - [18] Quote: NPCs do sell things currently that may be replaced by PI. If for example PI allows the player manufacturing of Mechanical Parts, then we will see a change in supply without a change in demand. This will change the cost of Mechanical Parts and trickle into the other activities in which it is used. If you look at what's on sisi atm then you'll see you can't make mechanical parts, only NANO mechanical parts.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.03.16 18:30:00 - [19] I can see them making POS Fuels, Nanite Paste, maybe even something larger like Station Components but skill books... If they are planning to remove NPCs from all sales then this would it also include Moon Probes.. They already have BPOs for them they are just not seeded. Wonder which way they'll go, seed the BPO or change what makes them and put them in PI. Skill books would be better suited as a BPO in my opinion. Build Materials for Gunnery Skills would require... 2 Militants 2 Marines 10 Test Dummies Build Materials for Social Skills would require... 2 Scientist 5 Diplomat 5 Exotic Dancer's But seriously, Skill books would be ok, but could mean some books nose dive in price, others like Learning skills get jacked up. What about station components, if enough people build em they'll be worthless. Every 0.0 system will have a Outpost because the build requirements cost only 5Billion. Amarr for Life
Hallan De'estus	Posted - 2010.03.16 18:31:00 - [20] Thanks to Professor Leech & Estel Arador! Very helpful! <sigh> Now, if I could just get more time to noodle around in SiSi....

Hentuku	Posted - 2010.03.16 18:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Professor Leech Edited by: Professor Leech on 16/03/2010 16:06:37 Too bad the items used on sisi are place holder items that do not represent the final products. It is a test server. If a final build ever reaches sisi it will be shortly before patch day so the time to react to this will be minimal. The op also assumes that the planets will produce infinite amount of goods without rate limitations. That is clearly not the case. There is also an assumption that regional differences will not be included, I don't know why anyone would think that. Where is the evidence that isk sinks will decrease as a result of this? Why is there talk of isk generation from PI when the concept is to produce goods? From the link Estel posted above. Quote: CCP's goal is that they "want to stop having NPCs manufacturing some of these things and start having the players manufacturing". So you can understand where I got the idea from. This would be the removal of an isk sink surely? Its not isk generation that is an issue, the issue is that isk you once spent on NPC orders for certain things will no longer be removed from the game, it will go into players pockets.
Turiel Demon Minmatar Celtic industries F A I L	Posted - 2010.03.16 20:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Hentuku Quote: CCP's goal is that they "want to stop having NPCs manufacturing some of these things and start having the players manufacturing". So you can understand where I got the idea from. This would be the removal of an isk sink surely? Its not isk generation that is an issue, the issue is that isk you once spent on NPC orders for certain things will no longer be removed from the game, it will go into players pockets. Well that depends very much on what the cost of manufacturing is. If we have to pay for the maintenance of facilities, feeding of the workforce etc in ISK (and I expect we will) then with any luck we should have to put at least as much ISK into making the items formerly provided by NPC's as we do now. That's what I'm hoping for in any event. If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Don't be greedy :P -Cap
Irssi Hitomi	Posted - 2010.03.16 21:27:00 - [23] Assuming it takes isk to produce these formerly NPC-produced items, and the NPC supply is removed, there WILL be inflation as a function of the cost vs revenue of production. If players make a profit (revenue - cost to produce), you have turned off an isk sink, and have potentially turned on an isk faucet of the cost to produce is not high enough. There will be some wonky supply-demand stuff going on at first but arbitrageurs will soon sort that out. The profit producers will see will depend on how many people get into the market as above poster said. This may turn out to be a very low margin business, but you have still removed an isk sink from the game.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:01:00 - [24] Thanks to all the people trying to explain this to me and who've missed the point completely. Even if there were to be no isk sink associated with PI you are producing NPC goods. When a change like this occurs expect the NPC buy orders to disappear completely. Even if ccp were stupid enough to leave them in it wouldn't be long before they'd amend the database. Like any other mini profession that has been introduced in the past expect it to be market driven, and expect associated isk sinks. tl;dr this thread is about wild unconsidered speculation. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Bennet Am	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:06:00 - [25] My 2 cents. One possible outcome is supply shock inflation. Let's say PI is buggy / borked and all NPC goods disappear from the market over night. Here demand is flat but supply falls after patch. Another possible outcome is demand pull inflation if the PIN's, routes and links are built with large amounts of existing minerals. So demand goes up and supply is the same as it was before patch. This is not inflation directly related to the production of npc products, but from building the infrastructure to do so. You could also get a kind of supply glut that led to deflation as demand for npc items is relatively unchanged, but supply is temporarily booming. At this early point, I guess I would expect a supply glut of whatever the high security planets produce (deflation), a temporary spike in demand for materials to build your planetary infrastructure, and a supply shock for those npc items that are only made on rare planets or whatever. To model this we still need more information, such as: will all planets be able to make all items, are the npc items being phased out or just disappearing, etc. Just like the WH rushing that went on I would expect the short term effect to be oversupply unless they keep profit margins really low (say high fees to upgrade and manage routes). Bennet
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Bennet Am At this early point, I guess I would expect a supply glut of whatever the high security planets produce (deflation), a temporary spike in demand for materials to build your planetary infrastructure, and a supply shock for those npc items that are only made on rare planets or whatever. This is consistent with post patch introduction of new mechanics. It usually follows with every man and their dog jumping on the bandwagon and running it into the ground. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Berenices Herculina Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.03.17 00:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Cecilia Syal did anyone build a university on their planet yet? I wonder the process to make skillbooks will be You're joking, right?
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.03.17 01:02:00 - [28] Originally by: Hentuku Quote: CCP's goal is that they "want to stop having NPCs manufacturing some of these things and start having the players manufacturing". So you can understand where I got the idea from. This would be the removal of an isk sink surely? Its not isk generation that is an issue, the issue is that isk you once spent on NPC orders for certain things will no longer be removed from the game, it will go into players pockets. Not necessarily. If each step in the manufacturing process is taxed (broker's fees, rent, PI maintenance fees, etc.) then it might not be too inflationary. Kinda like how real world sales tax is criticized for being applied multiple times to an item as it progresses from raw materials to a manufactured item that the consumer finally buys. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2010.03.17 01:28:00 - [29] Originally by: TraderJade Quote: NPCs do sell things currently that may be replaced by PI. If for example PI allows the player manufacturing of Mechanical Parts, then we will see a change in supply without a change in demand. This will change the cost of Mechanical Parts and trickle into the other activities in which it is used. If you look at what's on sisi atm then you'll see you can't make mechanical parts, only NANO mechanical parts. Originally by: Professor Leech Edited by: Professor Leech on 16/03/2010 16:06:37 Too bad the items used on sisi are place holder items that do not represent the final products. It is a test server. If a final build ever reaches sisi it will be shortly before patch day so the time to react to this will be minimal. And I said If for example, this normally implies that it is not necessarily what is going to happen. CEO, Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.03.17 01:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Dex Nederland Originally by: Professor Leech Edited by: Professor Leech on 16/03/2010 16:06:37 Too bad the items used on sisi are place holder items that do not represent the final products. It is a test server. If a final build ever reaches sisi it will be shortly before patch day so the time to react to this will be minimal. And I said If for example, this normally implies that it is not necessarily what is going to happen. Why don't you bust a nut about it? Perhaps we could discuss likely implementation scenarios for PI based on the information available. However, don't let me stop you from discussing pointless random speculation. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places



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