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Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:40:00 - [1] While dualboxing together with my noob alt i was killing some BS-Rats in Drone Region and watching: My main Char, completly maxed out in a CNR with basically tech II Fitting and tech II cruise missile launcher and 2 tech II bayloaders in low vs. my pretty Noob alt-char sitting in a plain Raven with Tech I Cruise Missile Launcher and 3 bayloaders in the low. Both next to next killin a new BS-Spawn within the same Distance and same speed with same ammo. They both killed the BS within the same amount of time, maybe the cnr was half second faster. And i was watching this a lot of times. I have both chars in same fleet and squad warping them with two monitor, all keys on the same place, so this is pretty easy to handle. I am very surprised that there is nearly no difference practically or just so small thats not worth doing it. Of course theoratically the cnr has more dps, better tank etc etc. but watching them both killing the rats there is just no real Difference at all and this is annoys me really much, because the cnr really cost hell of isk and my main char wasted really a lot of time maxing out missile skills. So whats wrong here ? For me looks like the Missile tech II dps is so dammned nerfed that you better stick on something other.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:44:00 - [2] Post fits?
Mike712	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:45:00 - [3] Edited by: Mike712 on 16/03/2010 12:45:37 Quote: Of course theoratically the cnr has more dps, better tank etc etc. What? CRN has exactly the same potential tank as a raven? You also only have 3 ballistic control units on your CNR? You should have at least 4, preferably 4 and rigor catalyst rigs. I've flow both and fact is the CNR kills much quicker than a standard raven, you're doing something wrong...how are your weapons grouped?
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.16 12:54:00 - [4] Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 16/03/2010 12:56:23 As i said, the cnr all cruise missile launcher II and 2 ballistic control units II plus a BAY LOADING ACCELERATOR I in the rigs and a tech II target painter. The raven all tech I plus 3 ballistic control units and a tech I target painter and no rigs. The main with 84 mill sp and all missile skills maxed out. The alt about 28 mill sp and cruise missile spec level 3. Of course the tank of the cnr is much better but i am talking about just the results of killing a belt BS - Rat. No matter how theoretically the cnr is better, they do practically killing BS-Spawns in the same time, the cnr is just very very little faster, practically if you count in tractor beaming in, looting and salvaging there is no time difference. /edit: why i have only 2 in the lows, i was think the cnr is doing so much better that i gave him another expanded cargohold to give more place for collecting loot.
General Trajan Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.03.16 15:33:00 - [5] Edited by: General Trajan on 16/03/2010 15:35:46 Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 16/03/2010 12:56:23 As i said, the cnr all cruise missile launcher II and 2 ballistic control units II plus a BAY LOADING ACCELERATOR I in the rigs and a tech II target painter. The raven all tech I plus 3 ballistic control units and a tech I target painter and no rigs. The main with 84 mill sp and all missile skills maxed out. The alt about 28 mill sp and cruise missile spec level 3. Of course the tank of the cnr is much better but i am talking about just the results of killing a belt BS - Rat. No matter how theoretically the cnr is better, they do practically killing BS-Spawns in the same time, the cnr is just very very little faster, practically if you count in tractor beaming in, looting and salvaging there is no time difference. /edit: why i have only 2 in the lows, i was think the cnr is doing so much better that i gave him another expanded cargohold to give more place for collecting loot. you put a cargo expander-II in the low slot of your CRN? dude! c'mon now. you're doin this all wrong! you have no reason at all to NOT be using 3 rigor catalyst rigs and 4 BCUs in the lows when using a CNR for missions/ratting. no wonder why the T1 raven is so close to it in damage. fit the CNR rightly and then just use your 2nd char for salvage/loot duty in a destroyer or something. more isk overall that way.
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:17:00 - [6] you put a cargo expander-II in the low slot of your CRN? dude! c'mon now. you're doin this all wrong! you have no reason at all to NOT be using 3 rigor catalyst rigs and 4 BCUs in the lows when using a CNR for missions/ratting. no wonder why the T1 raven is so close to it in damage. fit the CNR rightly and then just use your 2nd char for salvage/loot duty in a destroyer or something. more isk overall that way. I am not really asking how to optimize my ratting. Thats not the question. The question is why in hell a cnr with tech II fitting is doing not better then a plane tech I Raven with even less skills ? There should be a huge difference between them.
Johan Sabbat HammerTime Production Group	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:35:00 - [7] Volly damage ? Your CNR is taking the same number of volleys to kill the BS as the regular Raven. We can deduce from this that the rats don't take enough damage to get to the stage where the CNR's extra launcher (and pilot skills) adds up to an extra volly worth of damage. Just a theory...
Kismo	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:42:00 - [8] Edited by: Kismo on 16/03/2010 16:42:24 It's interesting, actually. I would actually expect the CNR to have substantially better results with the less gank that you have thrown on the ships - because as damage goes down, the damage above repair rate becomes much more important. 10000 HP / (300-250 DPS) vs 10000 HP / (350-250 DPS) is quite substantial, afterall. Anyway, I don't know that I'd have the ******* to rat with a CNR. IMO, 4 BCU torp raven and throw your CNR alt in a Prorator or Impel or something. (The cargo expander in the fit is undoubtedly due to the fact that the OP is ratting DRONE REGIONS).
dtyk	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:44:00 - [9] Quote: The question is why in hell a cnr with tech II fitting is doing not better then a plane tech I Raven with even less skills ? Fitting one ship for DPS and one for something really odd and kinda creepy does make a difference when only comparing damage. For example, a t1 fit gank Thorax will do more damage than a Megathron with t2 mining lasers.
General Trajan Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle you put a cargo expander-II in the low slot of your CRN? dude! c'mon now. you're doin this all wrong! you have no reason at all to NOT be using 3 rigor catalyst rigs and 4 BCUs in the lows when using a CNR for missions/ratting. no wonder why the T1 raven is so close to it in damage. fit the CNR rightly and then just use your 2nd char for salvage/loot duty in a destroyer or something. more isk overall that way. I am not really asking how to optimize my ratting. Thats not the question. The question is why in hell a cnr with tech II fitting is doing not better then a plane tech I Raven with even less skills ? There should be a huge difference between them. i know you didn't ask how to optimize your ratting. but guess what? fit your CNR rightly and you'll be doing just that. i take it that you're using fury missiles. if so, then you really need those rigor catalyst rigs (please use 3 of em) so you can get it's sig penatly down a bit so it can really shine. you using only 2 BCUs is another problem. use 4! as far as i'm concerned bay loading accelerator rigs only helps you to trow away more cruise than it does get you more quality hits on target. more suited for HAMs imo.

GrandPa Throttlebottom	Posted - 2010.03.16 17:06:00 - [11] 1. Many of the missile skills are meant to improve damage dealing to smaller boats by reducing the effects of speed tanking and small signaturesà no help with BBÆs 2. Other skills improve rangeà no help with the close in BBÆs 3. Painters increase the target signature and so areà no help with the BBÆs 4. Nevertheless, one or two less volleyÆs per BB is a massive improvement, but it only saves you a few seconds if youÆre just shooting a couple of rats; it starts to shine when you have twenty or more targets to work your way thru, which is why 99% of CNRÆs are used for running. 5. Rigors are useful if you're shooting at small fry, they have no effect whatsoever against anything whose signature is already at or above 300. Anyway you can use rigors or painters since they do the same thing in different ways. That is they both help with target signature/explosive radius ratio
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.16 18:22:00 - [12] Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 16/03/2010 18:22:49 Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 16/03/2010 18:22:21 Yeah, i can understand the last points. Just look again to the both ships, basically, one has tech II items and full maxed skills, the other has tech I and basic skills pretty much the same results. So all these shiny, expensive and long time skilled fittings against plain tech I fitting which can be done by almost any noob is not that much better, what someone probably would expect. I am somehow disappointed, really. I can see this sort of unbalanced gameplay very often. There are lots of very expensive things you can do in eve but at the end the difference to the just plain stuff is pathetic and very often really not worth doing it. As a long time skilled player i do expect something from this, and the difference should be more then marginal, or do i feel wrong with this ?
GrandPa Throttlebottom	Posted - 2010.03.16 18:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 16/03/2010 18:22:49 Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 16/03/2010 18:22:21 Yeah, i can understand the last points. Just look again to the both ships, basically, one has tech II items and full maxed skills, the other has tech I and basic skills pretty much the same results. So all these shiny, expensive and long time skilled fittings against plain tech I fitting which can be done by almost any noob is not that much better, what someone probably would expect. I am somehow disappointed, really. I can see this sort of unbalanced gameplay very often. There are lots of very expensive things you can do in eve but at the end the difference to the just plain stuff is pathetic and very often really not worth doing it. As a long time skilled player i do expect something from this, and the difference should be more then marginal, or do i feel wrong with this ? No, if you think the game play is unbalanced or are disappointed then I donÆt think you did get the points made... There is no magic combination of skills/modules/ships that is good at everything, you have to choose and that is how they balance game play. Its no one elseÆs fault if you chose a path that doesnÆt fit your favorite method of isk making. A Tech II Cruise CNR is a huge improvement over the standard Raven when running missionsà period. ItÆs not, however, my first choice to go ratting in lowsec. Those are two different things.
Fornicis Caldari APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2010.03.16 19:10:00 - [14] Originally by: GrandPa Throttlebottom Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 16/03/2010 18:22:49 Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 16/03/2010 18:22:21 Yeah, i can understand the last points. Just look again to the both ships, basically, one has tech II items and full maxed skills, the other has tech I and basic skills pretty much the same results. So all these shiny, expensive and long time skilled fittings against plain tech I fitting which can be done by almost any noob is not that much better, what someone probably would expect. I am somehow disappointed, really. I can see this sort of unbalanced gameplay very often. There are lots of very expensive things you can do in eve but at the end the difference to the just plain stuff is pathetic and very often really not worth doing it. As a long time skilled player i do expect something from this, and the difference should be more then marginal, or do i feel wrong with this ? No, if you think the game play is unbalanced or are disappointed then I don’t think you did get the points made... There is no magic combination of skills/modules/ships that is good at everything, you have to choose and that is how they balance game play. Its no one else’s fault if you chose a path that doesn’t fit your favorite method of isk making. A Tech II Cruise CNR is a huge improvement over the standard Raven when running missions… period. It’s not, however, my first choice to go ratting in lowsec. Those are two different things. You'd have to be insane to use the CNR in low-sec... The CNR has a different meaning than Caldari Navy Raven, it means "Can Not Run" simply because as soon as you jump that into low-sec you're gonna have every pirate in a 5 jump radius coming after you...
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.16 19:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Fornicis You'd have to be insane to use the CNR in low-sec... The CNR has a different meaning than Caldari Navy Raven, it means "Can Not Run" simply because as soon as you jump that into low-sec you're gonna have every pirate in a 5 jump radius coming after you... I don't tend to get ganked by my own corp/alliance. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Fornicis Caldari APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Fornicis You'd have to be insane to use the CNR in low-sec... The CNR has a different meaning than Caldari Navy Raven, it means "Can Not Run" simply because as soon as you jump that into low-sec you're gonna have every pirate in a 5 jump radius coming after you... I don't tend to get ganked by my own corp/alliance. -Liang Because Low-Sec = Null-Sec right? I assume from your bold statement there that your corp/alliance controls the low-sec you fight in then.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.16 22:38:00 - [17] Originally by: Fornicis Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Fornicis You'd have to be insane to use the CNR in low-sec... The CNR has a different meaning than Caldari Navy Raven, it means "Can Not Run" simply because as soon as you jump that into low-sec you're gonna have every pirate in a 5 jump radius coming after you... I don't tend to get ganked by my own corp/alliance. -Liang Because Low-Sec = Null-Sec right? I assume from your bold statement there that your corp/alliance controls the low-sec you fight in then. More accurate to say that we ARE every pirate within 5 jump radius. This isn't so uncommon, you know. For pirates, anyway. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire


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