| Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Syrous Tlesta
   |
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:13:00 -
[1]
So, as I look around online I find one thing over and over: The hyperion is the worst all around battleship and the other two are the best.
Now, I can't help but wonder WHY this statement is out there. I was hoping someone could fill me in. The Hyp's EHP and active tank make it a very solid survivability machine. Combined with the extra turret hardpoint it seems like a pretty solid build. One thing is that it can't use 5 heavy drones as is due to the lack of drone space (100m3).
One thing I heard was that the Hyperion costs the most. Base cost, sure, but after equipment fitting that isn't always the case. An example: For anyone with Evemon, you can look on the fittings for the Hyperion, Megathron and Dominix. Pick the top rated PVP builds for each (I think all 3 are the very highest rated builds on there). Figuring out the ship price, eq price and payout you end up with
Hyperion Top PVP Build
----------------------
Total Value of Ship and Build: 205,987,973
+Total cost of Insurance : 52,800,000
-Total Payout of Insurance : 176,000,000
------------------------------------
Total Losses/Gains Incurred : 82,787,973 loss
**********************************************************
Megathron Top PVP Build
-----------------------
Total Value of Ship and Build: 171,222,296
+Total cost of Insurance : 31,500,000
-Total Payout of Insurance : 105,000,000
------------------------------------
Total Losses/Gains Incurred : 97,722,296 loss
**********************************************************
Dominix Top PVP Build
-----------------------
Total Value of Ship and Build: 136,095,341
+Total cost of Insurance : 18,750,000
-Total Payout of Insurance : 62,500,000
------------------------------------
Total Losses/Gains Incurred : 92,345,341 loss
So all together, your losses are
Hyperion: 82,787,973 loss
Megathron: 97,722,296 loss
Dominix: 92,345,341 loss
Of course, builds vary but you get the idea.
So, with cost as a non-factor, what are folks reasons for looking down so on the Hyperion? Is it a lack of damage? The lack of ability to push 5 heavy drones? I'm rather curious myself.
|
Dr Fighter
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:14:00 -
[2]
active tanking is ghey
|
Ogogov
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:24:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Dr Fighter
active tanking is ghey
And railguns suck, and drones suck and blasters suck even more.
|
Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol
Talon Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:31:00 -
[4]
Comments:
- Getting a bonus to active local tanking is pretty fail. You pretty much can't use it and maintain reasonable DPS (both because of fitting and slottage!). In fact, the most successful Hype fits I've seen tended to be plate/rep fits with a single MFS - or just ignore the bonus altogether by HP fitting it (shield or armor).
- Including insurance costs like that is assuming you're going to lose the ship. IMO, initial investment DOES matter.
- Only having 6 low slots is pretty fail. After the 3 required MFS, you only have a 3 slot tank. On top of that, the "hidden" tier 3 HP bonus is roughly equivalent to a 800mm T1 plate - so its not like you could fit 2 EANMs and a DC II and come out "equal" to a mega with 1600 RT/2 EANM/DC.m
- The Hype handles like a pig, IMO and doesn't have a spare high for utility (RR/Neut).
The only redeeming factor of the Hype, IMO, is higher raw damage (8 guns + 4 heavies vs 7 guns + 5 heavies + tracking bonus) and the 5th mid. The 5th mid means you can shield buffer tank the Hype though - and come out with massive damage for it. :) Even still, it just isn't enough to make me want to use one. Especially now that I can fly a Geddon... :-/
What I'd like to see happen to the Hype is trading the armor tank bonus for a 5% ROF bonus and increase the Tier 3 armor HP bonus to be equivalent to a 1600 RT over the Mega. :)
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Heretic Burner
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:38:00 -
[5]
mega is the only gallente ship that does not look stupid.
|
Syrous Tlesta
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Heretic Burner
mega is the only gallente ship that does not look stupid.
As a semi-noob, I can't comment on all the technical stuff until I get more experience. That said, I can at least openly disagree with this.
Boooooooooooooooo @ you!
|
Syrous Tlesta
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:48:00 -
[7]
- The Hype handles like a pig, IMO and doesn't have a spare high for utility (RR/Neut).
I have to disagree with this one. I can't see much reason that you can't run with 7 electron IIs and a heavy neut II.
- Including insurance costs like that is assuming you're going to lose the ship. IMO, initial investment DOES matter.
Heh, with me it's not so much a question of IF as WHEN...
- Only having 6 low slots is pretty fail. After the 3 required MFS, you only have a 3 slot tank. On top of that, the "hidden" tier 3 HP bonus is roughly equivalent to a 800mm T1 plate - so its not like you could fit 2 EANMs and a DC II and come out "equal" to a mega with 1600 RT/2 EANM/DC.m
I actually didn't realize the t3 hp bonus was so low. >_> Yea it would be nice to run with.
8 guns + 4 heavies
So, would you suggest 4 tech II heavies vs 5 tech II mediums? I had heard conflicting things about this and thought it was better to run with a full 5 even if it meant downgrading. Lemme know what you think
|
Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol
Talon Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Syrous Tlesta
- The Hype handles like a pig, IMO and doesn't have a spare high for utility (RR/Neut).
I have to disagree with this one. I can't see much reason that you can't run with 7 electron IIs and a heavy neut II.
Because now you have crap range *AND* crap damage - which is a total fail place to be.
Quote:
8 guns + 4 heavies
So, would you suggest 4 tech II heavies vs 5 tech II mediums? I had heard conflicting things about this and thought it was better to run with a full 5 even if it meant downgrading. Lemme know what you think
While there's something to be said for running with a more versatile set of drones (5 Hammers/5 ECM or 5 hammers, 10 Warriors or something), I run with 4 heavies. When I fly a Hype at all - which has been twice in recent memory.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 17:56:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Only having 5 med slots is pretty fail.
Shield gank hype is nice, give it another med slot and it would be awesome.
|
Susy Assulu
Caldari
Atomic Mexicans
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:03:00 -
[10]
Iam apparently the only person that likes the hype the way it is, passive tanking everything is boring 
|
|
|
mygirl2
Caldari
Hell's Horsemen
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:13:00 -
[11]
Edited by: mygirl2 on 16/03/2010 18:15:41
Originally by: Syrous Tlesta
Dominix Top PVP Build
-----------------------
Total Value of Ship and Build: 136,095,341
+Total cost of Insurance : 18,750,000
-Total Payout of Insurance : 62,500,000
------------------------------------
Total Losses/Gains Incurred : 92,345,341 loss
I see a math issue...
WoW has kids
EvE has Cry Babies |
Syrous Tlesta
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Susy Assulu
Iam apparently the only person that likes the hype the way it is, passive tanking everything is boring
Nope. You are now one of 2 people who like the Mega the way it is, though I do have to say I wouldn't mind that passive HP increase they were talking about.
Go Hyperions!
|
Fornicis
Caldari
APOCALYPSE LEGION
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 18:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: mygirl2
Edited by: mygirl2 on 16/03/2010 18:17:03
I see a math issue...
I only see an issue with your continuity here, if theres an issue with that one, then there is an issue with all the others, which won't actually change the overall result with the Hyp still being cheapest after insurance at the OP's prices...
|
mygirl2
Caldari
Hell's Horsemen
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 19:01:00 -
[14]
Edited by: mygirl2 on 16/03/2010 19:05:26
I guess so... Ive never fitup a Hyp, but I have never spent that much isk fitting up a Domi. Mega is probably close.
My guess is there needs to be an overall price adjustment. But its been a while, may be wrong.
Continuity and all.
WoW has kids
EvE has Cry Babies |
Syrous Tlesta
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 19:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: mygirl2
Edited by: mygirl2 on 16/03/2010 19:05:26
I guess so... Ive never fitup a Hyp, but I have never spent that much isk fitting up a Domi. Mega is probably close.
My guess is there needs to be an overall price adjustment. But its been a while, may be wrong.
Continuity and all.
ooo I see. What I did was take the highest rated pvp setups off battleclinic for all 3 (just as general pricing templates) and grabbed the values they listed (which are based on average market prices. Pretty accurate for the Amarr region, not sure about Jita though. I find Amarr to be a bit cheaper than Jita in most cases) and worked with those. As I said, builds can vary for certain but the end result will end up that the Hyperion will not be so much more overpriced than the other ships. So with your build it may well come out the the Hyp would create a larger loss, but unless you flat out go Cheapfleet challenge sort of build or start making stuff yourself, it won't be by such a large margin as people seem to think based only on ship prices alone.
|
mygirl2
Caldari
Hell's Horsemen
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 19:39:00 -
[16]
cant argue with that, Amarr is usually a cheaper place
Like I said though, I should just keep my yap shut on the prices.... ist been too long to say the prices accurately.
WoW has kids
EvE has Cry Babies |
Heretic Burner
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 19:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Syrous Tlesta
Originally by: Heretic Burner
mega is the only gallente ship that does not look stupid.
That said, I can at least openly disagree with this.
Obviously. Anyone who picks gallente aesthetics in general has no taste and will disagree with my correct opinion.
|
James Tritanius
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 19:54:00 -
[18]
Domi > Mega > Hype for most situations.
|
Sonreir
Gallente
Band of Builders Inc.
Trinova
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 20:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: James Tritanius
Domi > Mega > Hype for most situations.
This.
TBH, active tanking still has it's uses. It's quite good on the Domi and OK on the Hyp. Not so much on the Megathron because of only having 4 mids.
Active tanking is the way to go for small gang PVP and it helps to keep your ships a bit more nimble than packing three plates onto them.
|
Baneken
Gallente
Aseveljet
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 20:36:00 -
[20]
Hype with high skills is a great PvE ship but frankly I can't see reason to bring hyperion to PvP instead of domi/mega.
Both Domi and mega still perform well in their roles fo sniping, logisctics and drones for hype there is only gank and it sucks in that department because blasters suck and plates kill your speed even if blasters wouldn't suck.
|
|
|
Tulisin Dragonflame
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 21:31:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Baneken
Hype with high skills is a great PvE ship
No it isn't, unless your drone skills are such absolute crap that the Domi is ineffective. The Hyperion can't even score points for being "on the way" to a better PvE ship, you have to "pass" the much better Domi just to get to it.
|
Ramiera DaMorre
|
Posted - 2010.03.16 21:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Heretic Burner
Obviously. Anyone who picks gallente aesthetics in general has no taste and will disagree with my correct opinion.
Ahahaha, arguing about aesthetics and taste is one of the stupidest things we humans do.
|
Jarod Leercap
|
Posted - 2010.03.17 01:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Syrous Tlesta
So, as I look around online I find one thing over and over: The hyperion is the worst all around battleship and the other two are the best.
Now, I can't help but wonder WHY this statement is out there. I was hoping someone could fill me in. The Hyp's EHP and active tank make it a very solid survivability machine. Combined with the extra turret hardpoint it seems like a pretty solid build.
Fair warning: I'm pretty much PvE only. However, I can see situations where I'd use a Domi over a Mega or a Mega over a Domi, but I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where I'd regularly use a Hype over a Mega. I'll dived my argument over roles.
(1) PvE
When I consider potential PvE fittings, I see the Hype as either sacrificing tank for the extra turret or having poorer offense than the Mega.
* I'd fit a PvE Mega with an LAR and 7 x 425mm Railgun II's.
* This fit requires a Co-Processor II in one of the Mega's lows, so at that point the number of low slots is functionally equivalent to the Hype. (A 1% implant is also required.)
* Grid wise, I'd be hard pressed to fit an extra 425MM Railgun II on the Hype without dropping the LAR (hard on the tank), using fitting modules (hard on the tank), or using rigs (hard on wherever you would like to use them).
* The Mega's better tracking means it will hit more often at closer ranges, and it means that enemies will have to go farther to get under its guns.
* When a enemy does get under the Mega's guns, the best approach is to dispatch drones. The Mega's larger drone bay is an advantage here.
* The Mega has a better targeting range, which means that enemies have still farther to go to get under it's guns. It also increases the odds that the Mega will be able to dispatch an enemy before it is in range to fight back.
* The extra high on the Hype could be used to improve tracking or targeting range, but not both.
(4) PvP: Gank Boat
The Hype's apparent advantages in offense and defense tend to vanish when the rubber meets the road. I can imagine the Hype out-damaging the Mega in an ideal situation, but I would expect the Mega to do better in the average case.
* Unlike rails, the fitting on the Hype will probably work fine for allowing an extra Neutron II.
* The better tracking on the Megathron is likely to close, if not eliminate, the gap from the Hype having an extra turret. This will particularly be the case when smaller, faster opponents are present.
* The additional low slot on the Mega allows for an extra damage or tanking module.
* For blaster boats, gank range often means neutralizer range. For this reason, gank fits tend to use buffer tanks that do not benefit from the Hype's repair bonus.
* Even when the opponent(s) lack neuts, gank boats typically win by eliminating the opposition quickly. As a result, having to tank long probably means you are going to lose the fight regardless.
(3) Fleet Sniping
The sniping Mega can be expected to offer more tracking, damage, or tank than a Hype--and perhaps two of these at the same time.
* Fleet sniping battles often involve focused fire that greatly surpass what can be managed with active tanking--even when a bonus like the Hype's is on the table. As a result, buffer tank and remote repair is usually the order of the day.
* Remote repair fits require that a high slot or two be resevered for the remote repair modules. This renders the extra turret slot on the Hype superfluous.
* While the extra mid on the Hype looks good on paper, in practice it is probably spent on a module to cure its poorer targeting range relative to the Mega.
* At worst, the Mega will spend its extra low slot on a fitting module. However, for fits that do not require this, an extra low slot is available for a damage mod or added tank.
|
Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
The Final Stand.
|
Posted - 2010.03.17 02:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- The Hype handles like a pig
-Liang
The Hype is faster and more agile than the mega, and thats before factoring in what happens to the 'thron after you pile on 1600 plates.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol
Talon Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.17 02:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
The Hype is faster and more agile than the mega, and thats before factoring in what happens to the 'thron after you pile on 1600 plates.
The speed/agility is very minimal really. It doesn't change my perception of the Hype - fat and slow like a pig. I tend to think of all of the Tier 3 BS's like this though. I guess I just notice it more on the Hype because blasters have crap for range.
TBH, if the Hype could run a dual rep tank with neutrons and nano pumps didn't cause a speed hit, I'd probably be willing to change my opinion of its speed/agility. Its why I have shield tanked mine. :|
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
The Final Stand.
|
Posted - 2010.03.17 02:39:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 17/03/2010 02:40:09
I too only run shields on my hype. Who doesn't like 1700 dps? (besides the guy on the wrong end of the barrel)
I wish they would give it more CPU and change the armor rep bonus to a shield boost bonus (or maybe make all rep/boost bonuses a general shield/armor active tank bonus that works for both?)
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
|
Posted - 2010.03.17 06:13:00 -
[27]
You guys try fitting 2x tracking computers with range scripts and null ammo on the Hyp? Its a reasonable engagement envelope.
I'm also tinkering with abandoning armor rigs on the Hyp - and instead fitting damage rigs. May as well work with the faster speed and damage bonus with 8 guns...
JOIN US
My ****ty Stats
|
Liang Nuren
The Aduro Protocol
Talon Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.17 07:49:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Omarvelous
You guys try fitting 2x tracking computers with range scripts and null ammo on the Hyp? Its a reasonable engagement envelope.
I'm also tinkering with abandoning armor rigs on the Hyp - and instead fitting damage rigs. May as well work with the faster speed and damage bonus with 8 guns...
I've tried both of those. The 2 TC fit worked better than the damage rig fit. The PG usage from rigs is pretty heinous.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Baneken
Gallente
Aseveljet
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2010.03.17 12:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
Originally by: Baneken
Hype with high skills is a great PvE ship
No it isn't, unless your drone skills are such absolute crap that the Domi is ineffective. The Hyperion can't even score points for being "on the way" to a better PvE ship, you have to "pass" the much better Domi just to get to it.
Dunno about you but I have 8x 425mm T2 rails with about maxed out gunnery skills and my Hype kills stuff definitely faster then a Domi.
I fitted a Domi now that my heavy drone V finished last week (drone interfacing V in 16days coming up) and even if ogre II do a decent damage they still can't pump nearly as much DPS as you can get from a bonused group of 8x railguns and this is for obvious reasons.
When my drone interfacing V is finished a Domi might kill stuff a faster then now but I seriously doubt it will ever by pass my Hype for killing speed, domi does have a substantially better tank but that shouldn't come to surprise for anyone when you can easily fit for a dual rep if you feel that Domis single rep 840dps tank isn't somehow enough for tanking in lvl 4's.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |